2016 Verizon IndyCar SeriesOpen Wheel

[cnd01]

F1 will always be the most popular worldwide,

^^

I tend to think CDN01 is more anti anything really; he rarely sees the bright light in any series and compares completely different things. Indycar has some room for improvement but they have held on for now with big sponsor stepping up to push them into a bigger spotlight. F1 itself isn't going anywhere period, way too many rich folks paying the bills to have it go anywhere.

No they are not, once again I've already explained why they did what they did, it has nothing to do with WEC. If it did F1 would be running jet fighter canopies and allowing the usage of diesel engines. The only thing I've seen that works in unison with F1 is by extending the regs to make it to where WEC can expand by being a de facto test series for F1 teams. All the more reason why I wouldn't be surprised to see Ferrari join, they get test time with their current engine, they also get a shot at returning to sports car glory while making better their F1 team and subsequent wins potentially.

There is no pressure there was a couple years ago by a group named VW , and they said sure, then no thanks we'll stick to Rally racing cause it suits our image and buyers we are selling to. Same is for Audi and Porsche, and really Porsche is only coming back to racing in a top tier class so they stay number 1 and don't get over taken.

Also me and @Justin have both asked you how this is going to hurt F1 and somehow improve Indy racing? We both more then adequately put forth an argument and you ignored it and still are on about it somehow failing...

Just sounds like more anti-international racing conjecture from you really

See my above quote. We know money talks in racing whether it's the 24 Hours of Le Mans or the 24 Hours of LeMons.

If making the F1 engine regs where they are legal in the WEC isn't stacking their own deck, I don't know what is. The FIA is trying to get Ferrari, McLaren, and others to race LMP1 as a means to test and develop rather than the teams privately testing and developing. To me, that bastardizes the WEC. When the F1 team wins Le Mans, it is now a successful engine test for F1 more so than a win at Le Mans or Spa or Silverstone or wherever. The WEC shouldn't sell itself to becoming the F1 engine proving grounds.

 

[IforceV8]

New tire rules and chassis upgrades.

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.co...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Chassis upgrades sound like it's mostly to improve driver comfort.

No princess so no need for power steering.
There was a development steering knuckle that was supposed to help with wheel whip and reduce hand injuries,but i dont know if that part is on the cars now or not.

The tire thing should help teams that retire early from the first few races get their setup development time back.

 

[Northstar]

Thats not surprising considering the series has been hidden on the NBC sports network for a couple of years now.

That would only explain the initial decline, not the subsequent declines.

The WEC shouldn't sell itself to becoming the F1 engine proving grounds.

They haven't though. The only reason you could run an F1 engine in an LMP1 is because you can run any engine in an LMP1.

 

[cnd01]

They haven't though. The only reason you could run an F1 engine in an LMP1 is because you can run any engine in an LMP1.

LMP1 engine horsepower levels have dropped over the past few years. It looks like they're slowing down LMP1 so that way the F1 engines will be more in line with what they would run in race spec. I may be waay off on specs, but that is why I think that way

 

[IforceV8]

Engine rules changed too. http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.co...d-penalties-for-unapproved-engine-swaps-gone/

 

[Wilbur]

LMP1 engine horsepower levels have dropped over the past few years. It looks like they're slowing down LMP1 so that way the F1 engines will be more in line with what they would run in race spec. I may be waay off on specs, but that is why I think that way

Isn't LMP1 and F1 both the top of the food chain in terms of most motorsports? So if they are trying to get other makes to build LMP cars/test engines then what is the problem with using a F1 based team to do that? I guess I say let the rich play in LMP1 and F1 and the rest is for the private guys or factory teams with budgets.

Now this completely off topic as we have gone from Indycar to F1 to LMP1. None of which are close but I have always had the mindset that F1= LMP1 in terms of technology, budgets and resources and Indycar = DP/P2 in with alot more spec and privateers.

 

[cnd01]

Now this completely off topic as we have gone from Indycar to F1 to LMP1. None of which are close but I have always had the mindset that F1= LMP1 in terms of technology, budgets and resources and Indycar = DP/P2 in with alot more spec and privateers.

I agree. It's 2 different ways to skin the cat.

I'm looking forward to when IndyCar actually races at Barber. I'm probably going this year as the track is about 2 hours from me

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

^^,




See my above quote. We know money talks in racing whether it's the 24 Hours of Le Mans or the 24 Hours of LeMons.

If making the F1 engine regs where they are legal in the WEC isn't stacking their own deck, I don't know what is. The FIA is trying to get Ferrari, McLaren, and others to race LMP1 as a means to test and develop rather than the teams privately testing and developing. To me, that bastardizes the WEC. When the F1 team wins Le Mans, it is now a successful engine test for F1 more so than a win at Le Mans or Spa or Silverstone or wherever. The WEC shouldn't stiell itself to becoming the F1 engine proving grounds.

No they're not stacking the deck compared to the road cars that McLaren makes it's quite easy to see that they have had plenty of room to do WEC/Le Mans if they wanted the reality is they don't. They much rather get their F1 act back in winning order then waste time going to Le Mans. The FIA is trying to get manufactures in general to join this groups whether they are in an FIA sanctioned series or not is irrelevant. This idea that the FIA is double dipping because they can't attract new manufactures thus Indy wins by default (even they they only have two) is asinine.

1. No teams from F1 run in the top tier of WEC and only one team has hinted at a maybe not even a for sure.

2. it's about image not proving ground, Ferrari are a sports car company and thus winning in both sports improves the image that "hey we make some pretty epic sports cars and look what technology you get.

3. Also did you ever think that perhaps I didn't give you the full idea, just to see you run with part of it and essentially give you enough rope? In other words the rest of it is this, WEC allows manufactures to do things of the experimental realm that F1 doesn't and thus those can later be used to improve Ferrari road going cars.

4. What has indy done that really makes you think it will even get remotely close to F1? I'm a big fan and have followed it nearly as long as every other race series (back to CART) and the only thing that got me is the progression of rules, that we seem to see get pushed further back. Even if they came in with aero kits, they are manufactured set and not team designed thus giving us different ideas that would make it more exciting. In the end it is just two manufactures against one another.

Oh and yelling "to me" so people will leave you alone and then going about an opinion as if it has some basis in reality, wont stop people from rebuking or making simple retorts.

 

[cnd01]

No they're not stacking the deck compared to the road cars that McLaren makes it's quite easy to see that they have had plenty of room to do WEC/Le Mans if they wanted the reality is they don't. They much rather get their F1 act back in winning order then waste time going to Le Mans. The FIA is trying to get manufactures in general to join this groups whether they are in an FIA sanctioned series or not is irrelevant. This idea that the FIA is double dipping because they can't attract new manufactures thus Indy wins by default (even they they only have two) is asinine.

1. No teams from F1 run in the top tier of WEC and only one team has hinted at a maybe not even a for sure.

2. it's about image not proving ground, Ferrari are a sports car company and thus winning in both sports improves the image that "hey we make some pretty epic sports cars and look what technology you get.

3. Also did you ever think that perhaps I didn't give you the full idea, just to see you run with part of it and essentially give you enough rope? In other words the rest of it is this, WEC allows manufactures to do things of the experimental realm that F1 doesn't and thus those can later be used to improve Ferrari road going cars.

4. What has indy done that really makes you think it will even get remotely close to F1? I'm a big fan and have followed it nearly as long as every other race series (back to CART) and the only thing that got me is the progression of rules, that we seem to see get pushed further back. Even if they came in with aero kits, they are manufactured set and not team designed thus giving us different ideas that would make it more exciting. In the end it is just two manufactures against one another.

Oh and yelling "to me" so people will leave you alone and then going about an opinion as if it has some basis in reality, wont stop people from rebuking or making simple retorts.

1.) Never said that F1 team currently run WEC or that there's a guarantee that 5 F1 teams will have LMP1 teams next season

2.) I think it's both, but the priority will be experimenting for F1

3.) Perhaps you make my point for me. The F1 engine companies can experiment new stuff in their engines for the WEC as a test. If it works great, it goes into the F1 engine assuming it's allowed. If not, rinse and repeat with something else to get the edge in F1.

4.) I believe I have already quoted myself already saying "F1 will always be the most popular worldwide" If you think Ganassi v. Penske v. Andretti is bad already, open up downforce kits to individual teams and you'd see just how dominant those teams would become over the rest of the field. I bet it would be very hard to get 33 cars for the Indy 500 if that were the case. People don't like going into races knowing they don't have a chance in hell of winning. IndyCar at least is trying to be different than F1 which I applaud. The DW12 was odd looking to me at first, but it has grown a lot on me after seeing it on track. As you definitely know, I'm not a fan of a racing series copying what another series does on the basis of "we want to be them" IndyCar is not F1, nor will it ever be F1. Therefore, they should not mimic F1 closely at all. Don't be something you're not. That's why I really liked IndyCar going to the solo chassis with a tighter rule set. Run more ovals if you have to. Go to shorter race lengths if you have to. I see promise in IndyCar because they're willing to change to try and become something unique.

 

[Northstar]

If you think Ganassi v. Penske v. Andretti is bad already, open up downforce kits to individual teams and you'd see just how dominant those teams would become over the rest of the field.

Which is why you go with the original plan of making the teams put the aero kits up for sale. Also, I would much rather see a team dominate a series where they have to design their own car over one where they just have to have the most money.

People don't like going into races knowing they don't have a chance in hell of winning.

That scenario already exists and with the current setup there isn't much they can do to close the gap.

IndyCar at least is trying to be different than F1 which I applaud.

As do I, but just being different isn't going to cut it if you don't know what you want to grow the product into.

 

[cnd01]

Which is why you go with the original plan of making the teams put the aero kits up for sale. Also, I would much rather see a team dominate a series where they have to design their own car over one where they just have to have the most money.



That scenario already exists and with the current setup there isn't much they can do to close the gap.



As do I, but just being different isn't going to cut it if you don't know what you want to grow the product into.

If you make the teams sell their aero kits, it will become the Ganassi aero kit vs. the Penske aero kit and the same scenario unfolds that we have now

IndyCar is still searching for something that works. They're running out of time, but I think they will find something that does work well here this season

 

[RACECAR]

People don't like going into races knowing they don't have a chance in hell of winning.

That's just nature of sport period. You always are going to have someone who has no chance of winning and there is no specs, BOP, Penalty or rules change that'll stop that.

 

[cnd01]

That's just nature of sport period. You always are going to have someone who has no chance of winning and there is no specs, BOP, Penalty or rules change that'll stop that.

At least it won't be because the team doesn't have the funding to compete. It will be about who has the best setup, drivers, strategy, and runs the best race. I personally like that a little better than the best team dominating every race

 

[Furinkazen]

If making the F1 engine regs where they are legal in the WEC isn't stacking their own deck, I don't know what is. The FIA is trying to get Ferrari, McLaren, and others to race LMP1 as a means to test and develop rather than the teams privately testing and developing. To me, that bastardizes the WEC. When the F1 team wins Le Mans, it is now a successful engine test for F1 more so than a win at Le Mans or Spa or Silverstone or wherever. The WEC shouldn't sell itself to becoming the F1 engine proving grounds.

Off topic for Indycar but I cannot believe I just read this. I'd like evidence for:

The FIA is trying to get Ferrari, McLaren, and others to race LMP1 as a means to test and develop rather than the teams privately testing and developing.

I would also like to see how there is an F1 connection when Toyota went to LM racing AFTER F1, Audi have always been in LM racing, and Porsche said they picked WEC over F1.

 

[cnd01]

Off topic for Indycar but I cannot believe I just read this. I'd like evidence for:



I would also like to see how there is an F1 connection when Toyota went to LM racing AFTER F1, Audi have always been in LM racing, and Porsche said they picked WEC over F1.

I never said that F1 teams are already in the WEC. I'm saying that the FIA wants teams to do both. My evidence is the drop in engine power for the WEC LMP1 which is now closer to F1 engine regs. They're not forcing anything on anyone, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's something the FIA wants. It's putting 2 and 2 together I know, but it wouldn't surprise me

 

[Northstar]

If you make the teams sell their aero kits, it will become the Ganassi aero kit vs. the Penske aero kit and the same scenario unfolds that we have now

Not really as you would also have the manufacturer aero kits and smaller teams always have the option of making their own. Plus, I'm fairly certain at least one chassis constructor said they may put out an aero kit(Was before they were delayed).

At least it won't be because the team doesn't have the funding to compete.

How many teams have pay drivers, downsized, merged or closed their doors in the last few years? There is also that whole "top 3 teams winning 14/19 races in '13" thing you seem to be ignoring. In order to be competitive in any series you need a mountain of cash, something small teams usually don't have.

It will be about who has the best setup, drivers, strategy, and runs the best race.

And what do most of things need? Money, something which only the big teams have a lot of. Plus, even when a small team does disrupt the pecking order they usually get pillaged by the bigger teams and end up falling to the back again.

 

[RACECAR]

cnd01, I think you might be reaching out for something a lot further then farfetched..

 

[cnd01]

cnd01, I think you might be reaching out for something a lot further then farfetched..

Oh no doubts it's a stretch. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened, but it probably won't. I like playing devil's advocate as everyone knows very well

 

[Northstar]

I'm not a fan of a racing series copying what another series does on the basis of "we want to be them" IndyCar is not F1, nor will it ever be F1. Therefore, they should not mimic F1 closely at all.

1 day later....

IndyCar announces new points, 500 mile races will award double points.

 

[GTPorsche]

To be honest, I had no idea how the previous points system was done. The new points system seems a lot better, and it puts emphasis on winning the Triple Crown races.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

1.) Never said that F1 team currently run WEC or that there's a guarantee that 5 F1 teams will have LMP1 teams next season

You implied it by saying that the FIA is stacking the deck and alluding to the rule purposely aligning to fit an F1 agenda. Too bad the WEC was first to the party and F1 manufactures said "we need more realistic engines for what we have on the road today, or we walk". No way in hell Honda would return if V8s were still on hand.

2.) I think it's both, but the priority will be experimenting for F1

No it wont, because they haven't joined yet so you can say that. They do F1 out of image and history, and because it is an arena they heavily influence. ACO/FIA WEC isn't the same and thus may make it a reason they perhaps don't join.

3.) Perhaps you make my point for me. The F1 engine companies can experiment new stuff in their engines for the WEC as a test. If it works great, it goes into the F1 engine assuming it's allowed. If not, rinse and repeat with something else to get the edge in F1.

The problem is that you seemed to fail to grasp is that if it doesn't fit f1 criteria then you just wasted tons of money doing it and thus...the deck isn't stacked. This is all pretty simple to follow a path with.

4.) I believe I have already quoted myself already saying "F1 will always be the most popular worldwide" If you think Ganassi v. Penske v. Andretti is bad already, open up downforce kits to individual teams and you'd see just how dominant those teams would become over the rest of the field. I bet it would be very hard to get 33 cars for the Indy 500 if that were the case. People don't like going into races knowing they don't have a chance in hell of winning. IndyCar at least is trying to be different than F1 which I applaud. The DW12 was odd looking to me at first, but it has grown a lot on me after seeing it on track. As you definitely know, I'm not a fan of a racing series copying what another series does on the basis of "we want to be them" IndyCar is not F1, nor will it ever be F1. Therefore, they should not mimic F1 closely at all. Don't be something you're not. That's why I really liked IndyCar going to the solo chassis with a tighter rule set. Run more ovals if you have to. Go to shorter race lengths if you have to. I see promise in IndyCar because they're willing to change to try and become something unique.

Not before saying how you think the international world will get so annoyed with F1 that they'll be enamored with Indy Racing to fill the void. What gets me is you loathe these other most times international racing series based on a fundamental idea of racing, that any true race fan understands... Which is making cutting edge technological cars that go faster and faster, more safely and efficiently. This has been going on for some time doing one or all of them and thus cost money, which you seem to hate hence your passion for DP relics.

The fact is there are numerous ways to give teams the ability to do what they did in CART and not let them run away with it. Semi-spec and spec based series are just as much victim to money as Formula based series and I could give you numerous examples for days if you'd like. I'll start off with the one you just did give for Indy.

I never said that F1 teams are already in the WEC. I'm saying that the FIA wants teams to do both. My evidence is the drop in engine power for the WEC LMP1 which is now closer to F1 engine regs. They're not forcing anything on anyone, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's something the FIA wants. It's putting 2 and 2 together I know, but it wouldn't surprise me

The drop is not because of this conspiracy you have, it's because they are trying to do what they always do with WEC/LM and it's called BoP due to Diesel powered dominance still.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/03/20/f1-risked-losing-manufacturers-without-new-engines/

 

[Tired Tyres]

I never said that F1 teams are already in the WEC. I'm saying that the FIA wants teams to do both. My evidence is the drop in engine power for the WEC LMP1 which is now closer to F1 engine regs. They're not forcing anything on anyone, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's something the FIA wants. It's putting 2 and 2 together I know, but it wouldn't surprise me

You've got it the wrong way round. Any matching of engine regs between WEC and F1 is not to encourage F1 into WEC but to encourage WEC manufacturers into F1. FIA Sports cars have always been a sacrificial lamb for the F1 altar.

 

[cnd01]

You've got it the wrong way round. Any matching of engine regs between WEC and F1 is not to encourage F1 into WEC but to encourage WEC manufacturers into F1. FIA Sports cars have always been a sacrificial lamb for the F1 altar.

I understand that F1 is the pinnacle of racing technology and popularity too by a large margin I assume. I don't like the idea of series having to be the sacrificial lamb to any other series. Racing is a niche market sport, and there are plenty of ways to become unique within that niche. I think that conforming to other series is massively lazy and unoriginal especially when the same sanctioning body is over both; however, I don't think everything should be different from each other just for the sake of being different. I think that sports car racing, touring car racing, open wheel, drag racing, oval, etc. can all be different yet still share some of the same aspects of each other. This often goes against the tradition of what's been done sometimes for the better, sometimes not so much.

How that rambling ties into the topic of the thread:
We've seen how the split has changed American societies perspective of race fans. When CART was king before the split, this was the American race fan:

After the split:

To get back to where it was, IndyCar has to try different things. What to try is up to debate and opinion, but something has to be done. The same strategies that worked in 1986 might not work well at all in 2014, but that's my opinion

 

[Ardius]

Things change

Before the North American openwheel split hurt the sport, Mansell had already jumped ship to Indycar, and Senna after testing for Roger Penske's Indycar team was ready to jump ship too. Then of course the split happened.

Indycar is well on its way back. And I just dont see F1 being that appealing to fans over the next few years. Who really watches a 90 minute sprint race featuring the fastest racecars where the drivers have to conserve tires and now fuel too? Its an oxymoron. I watched the first F1 race this year and it will probably be my last of the season, excluding Monaco. Maybe next year with some changes to the rules they can make the racing enjoyable for me again, but who knows.

Do you even watch Indycars? Because if you did you wouldn't be talking about F1 being rubbish because of conserving tyres and fuel in the same paragraph as saying Indycar is on its way back.

What I hate about Indycar (particularly the road races) that I've seen the past few years is their constant conserving fuel and tyres! I don't mind strategy and conserving your car to run better later...but some Indycar races have been real snoozes because of it.
Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoyed more Indycar races lately than F1 races. But complaining about F1 for this and comparing it to Indycar isn't the best argument

 

[IforceV8]

Do you even watch Indycars? Because if you did you wouldn't be talking about F1 being rubbish because of conserving tyres and fuel in the same paragraph as saying Indycar is on its way back.

What I hate about Indycar (particularly the road races) that I've seen the past few years is their constant conserving fuel and tyres! I don't mind strategy and conserving your car to run better later...but some Indycar races have been real snoozes because of it.
Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoyed more Indycar races lately than F1 races. But complaining about F1 for this and comparing it to Indycar isn't the best argument

You are kinda right about the fuel but dead wrong on the tires.The Firestones arent designed to create drama like the Pirelli's are in F1.They are just a part of the whole show,not the star.

Give some credit to Indycar though as they have adjusted the lengths of some races to discourage the dreaded fuel mileage race.The big difference is that IC doesnt have to save fuel unlike the new F1 rules that discourage going fast to stay within the 100kg/hr rate or wtf it is.

 

[Earth]

Do you even watch Indycars? Because if you did you wouldn't be talking about F1 being rubbish because of conserving tyres and fuel in the same paragraph as saying Indycar is on its way back.

What I hate about Indycar (particularly the road races) that I've seen the past few years is their constant conserving fuel and tyres! I don't mind strategy and conserving your car to run better later...but some Indycar races have been real snoozes because of it.
Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoyed more Indycar races lately than F1 races. But complaining about F1 for this and comparing it to Indycar isn't the best argument

Fuel saving in Indycar is the same as fuel saving in almost any other racing series. Its part of the strategy. Its not forced on the teams because refueling is banned and they were intentionally given 1/3 smaller fuel tanks to work with like F1. Any fuel saving issues in Indycar are constantly trying to be squashed by the suits. It didnt help the fuel cells of the first Dallaras were all of different sizes forcing Indycar to shrink everyones cell to the size of the smallest one. Thats quite different from F1 where fuel issues were deliberately introduced.

On top of that, these are two different leagues. F1 is suppose to be all out for 90 minutes using up as much tires and fuel as you can. At least thats the F1 I grew up with. Fuel races have always been part of Indycar racing for as long as I can remember. Maybe moreso now for certain reasons, but with caution flags and other things F1 doesnt have fuel strategy is more important in Indycar.

 

[Northstar]

At least thats the F1 I grew up with.

The Formula 1 you grew up with wouldn't have survived the economic collapse a few years ago(pretty much every series has had to change their ways in order to survive).

 

[Furinkazen]

You cannot keep Dario Franchitti away. He will be pace car driver for this years Indianapolis 500.

 

[ukfan758]

I really hope that safety changes are made to many of the street circuits due to Dario's accident. Hopefully big runoff areas and Armco barriers will be added to lessen the chance of injury and prevent a car from going into the debris fence like that. Here's a visual that I made of the changes to the turn at Houston I would want changed:

Black= track surface
Red= barrier
Brown= sand/asphalt runoff area
Blue= Grandstands

 

[Tex]

I really hope that safety changes are made to many of the street circuits due to Dario's accident. Hopefully big runoff areas and Armco barriers will be added to lessen the chance of injury and prevent a car from going into the debris fence like that. Here's a visual that I made of the changes to the turn at Houston I would want changed:
View attachment 132530
Black= track surface
Red= barrier
Brown= sand/asphalt runoff area
Blue= Grandstands

That would be a good idea, but it will be pointless, because just behind were the barriers are placed is a row of trees that goes around the Astrodome (turn 5), and all the way towards turn 6.

I also noticed something when I was looking at the ticket prices for this year's races. I think they're moving the turn 5 grandstand where those spectators were injured in the Dario incident to the turn 6 exit just in case if another incident similar to that of Dario's ever happens again.