2017 F1 Constructor technical info/developmentFormula 1 

Dennisch
If they already have the spec sheet ready for 2020, I think they would have plenty of time to develop an engine. If it is indeed a simpler setup than the current one.
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They probably don't, plus, as we've seen with Honda, who had an extra year to prepare, it doesn't mean a thing. Really and truly you don't start to learn until you out the engine in the car and start running.

Red Bull can't realistically make an engine on their own, or without help from a manufacturer, given their ambition. That sounds like just pressure to force a change of engine formula sooner than later to hopefully get back into favour.
 
New double T-Wing for Haas:
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New triple T-Wing for Force India:
f1-monaco-gp-2017-force-india-vjm10-t-wing-detail.jpg
 
Peter.
They probably don't, plus, as we've seen with Honda, who had an extra year to prepare, it doesn't mean a thing. Really and truly you don't start to learn until you out the engine in the car and start running.

Red Bull can't realistically make an engine on their own, or without help from a manufacturer, given their ambition. That sounds like just pressure to force a change of engine formula sooner than later to hopefully get back into favour.
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I agree with much of what you're saying, what I think people are forgetting though is this isn't Force India or Williams, this is a race team that is the arm of a drinks company, that spends as much as the top two teams each year. To me any independent that can do that regularly (Benetton was the last team I remember that could), should be looked upon on a near or at manufacture level. You couple that with the global spending RB does in other series that they just so happen to be the top contender in and that to me says there is money that could be spend on engine R&D and manufacturing.

Not to say they'll do this, I thought they would have long tried to start and there was always talk of them about looking into it. At this point it's much like Ferrari, where they throw their weight around because of how critical they've become in F1 and now the FOM and FIA figure a way to respond to the threat.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
I agree with much of what you're saying, what I think people are forgetting though is this isn't Force India or Williams, this is a race team that is the arm of a drinks company, that spends as much as the top two teams each year. To me any independent that can do that regularly (Benetton was the last team I remember that could), should be looked upon on a near or at manufacture level. You couple that with the global spending RB does in other series that they just so happen to be the top contender in and that to me says there is money that could be spend on engine R&D and manufacturing.
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You can't just throw money at a whole new enterprise like creating an F1 power unit and expect results. If Honda and Renault, both long time F1 (and road car) engine manufacturers, with deep pockets and massive levels of experience amongst their ranks, can't come up with a competitive unit, what chance does a total newcomer (to engine and hybrid systems development) have of success?
 
TheCracker
You can't just throw money at a whole new enterprise like creating an F1 power unit and expect results. If Honda and Renault, both long time F1 (and road car) engine manufacturers, with deep pockets and massive levels of experience amongst their ranks, can't come up with a competitive unit, what chance does a total newcomer (to engine and hybrid systems development) have of success?
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What has Renault done wrong exactly? I don't see them failing every weekend and in fact I've seen Renault on average in 2014 and 2016 do better than Ferrari counter parts. It seems like a popular thing to say and then pass along without really being true that Renault are bad, mainly because the former works team wants to be in the thick of WCC/WDC.

Honda yes that's true, but then again Honda seem the have a mantra of "if we copy our competitors as best possible will quickly get up to speed" rather than just doing something original and working from there.

RBR brought in Illmor for that very reason to improve the engine and change the name, so it wouldn't actually have to be shared with Renault.

So because Honda has struggled for whatever reason, some may say they were late to the party and also because they changed designs, doesn't mean RBR would. Especially if RBR hired the right people and orchestrated it correctly under their direct influence. The only issue is why would you go to this length, other than demanding to the FIA so they could have it finished and sell it to other teams.
 
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Pezzarinho17
Admits? And they had kept the unreliability issues so well hidden until they finally spoke up about it.... Do you think they might be better admitting defeat?...
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Short answer: yes

IMO, if the best brains at Honda (and Renault/Ilmor to a degree) are struggling for ways to make their power units competitive against Mercedes & Ferrari, the combined tech involved in making these cars go is too complicated.
 
Pete05
Short answer: yes

IMO, if the best brains at Honda (and Renault/Ilmor to a degree) are struggling for ways to make their power units competitive against Mercedes & Ferrari, the combined tech involved in making these cars go is too complicated.
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Though to be fair, every single Honda race engine program at the moment is rather...questionable.
 
catamount39
Though to be fair, every single Honda race engine program at the moment is rather...questionable.
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Their Indycar program is much more competitive this season compared to last year. Otherwise yeah, Honda hasn't been able to get the best out of their various projects this season
 
catamount39
Competitive, but have had a ton of failures and problems as well.
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True, but ultimately the failures are coming from pushing the limit of the engine they have rather than an endless string of design faults.

EDIT: And yes, I know Honda Performance Development team are in charge of the Indycar program and generally have little communication with Honda of Japan on designs...
 
So Bouillier says Honda and McLaren could still live beyond 2018. The tl;dr is that he says basically in a much nicer way than Zak Brown and Fernando that they would need to improve before the end of the year to some decent margin before they consider it.

Want to see why it was always going to be tough, because McLaren made a bed with Honda Instead of having an option in the background in case a third year with Honda went bust, they're scrambling for next year. The season is getting close to the half point, and usually this is where teams are looking at next years car while finalizing future updates for their current car. So it's a tough spot McLaren are in engine provider wise.

Also a nice detailed look at the Ferrari and why it is more successful than its predecessors.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/...he-mystery-of-ferrari-s-f1-resurgence-914696/
 
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LMSCorvetteGT2
So Bouillier says Honda and McLaren could still live beyond 2018. The tl;dr is that he says basically in a much nicer way than Zak Brown and Fernando that they would need to improve before the end of the year to some decent margin before they consider it.

Want to see why it was always going to be tough, because McLaren made a bed with Honda Instead of having an option in the background in case a third year with Honda went bust, they're scrambling for next year. The season is getting close to the half point, and usually this is where teams are looking at next years car while finalizing future updates for their current car. So it's a tough spot McLaren are in engine provider wise.
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I think this is more or less the only way to say it at this point. Honda has to throw everything they have and then some at this to rectify the problem. And Honda needs to swallow it's pride and take whatever outside help they can.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Want to see why it was always going to be tough, because McLaren made a bed with Honda Instead of having an option in the background in case a third year with Honda went bust, they're scrambling for next year.
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We don't know that they're "scrambling", we do know (confirmed by Mercedes and McLaren) that they've discussed unspecified supply options with Mercedes. If the break with Honda comes then it's been a long time coming and I'd be astonished that McLaren hadn't already established a firm Plan B.
 
TenEightyOne
We don't know that they're "scrambling", we do know (confirmed by Mercedes and McLaren) that they've discussed unspecified supply options with Mercedes. If the break with Honda comes then it's been a long time coming and I'd be astonished that McLaren hadn't already established a firm Plan B.
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I guess you have a point, I'd say it would be a scramble based on the other info I gave. It being the start of the summer stretch where many decisions actually get finalized other than driver's contracts. However, as you've pointed out there isn't much concrete evidence to show they're scrambling, but I feel they're nervous and unsure what to do, especially if Honda actually makes it up to speed.
 

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