2017 Formula 1 United States Grand PrixFormula 1

[baldgye]

Why is everyone just replying to the examples of other drivers doing this and not to the video I posted. Also it doesn't matter if you cut the track or run wide, if you gain a position by doing so it's illegal. So Bottas and Vettel should get a penalty too. Not that I'd agree with that either since I see no issue with it at all. But consistency is the thing here, you can't just give 1 driver a penalty.

So now again, please take a look at the video I posted from F1's twitter page and make a comment about that too. I'd like to see some thoughts on how Max should've avoided a hit from Kimi without going off track. Just not possible since Kimi was turning in without really noticing Max there. The thing is though, if you do it to avoid a collision while you're already on the inside of someone, is an overtake still illegal then? I don't think he should've backed out of that move, Kimi didn't really leave him enough space.

I imgaine most people by now, have seen the onboard footage. What he should have done is let kimi back past before the last turn and tired to do something similar to what Lewis did at Spa 2008(?)
Kimi kept the racing line, he positioned his car, mostly in the middle of the track and didn't deviate.
The more times I see it, the more clear it is that Max cut the corner by a decent margin. Which F1 drivers shouldn't be allowed to do in order to gain places.

Vettel didn't gain a position on anyone by running wide and neither did Bottas.



The problem, for me at least, is that the decision was made so quickly and during the race (apparentaly) which means it can't be contested.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

Was a great race to watch and some very nice moves by both Carlos and Max. I think it's fair to say now though that Vettel now has no chance at all anymore to win the championship. Lewis would have to get 3 DNF's I think, that's not going to happen.

As for the penalty for Max, yes he did leave the track with all 4 tyres but look closely and I think you'll see that what @Famine said is true. You can see that Kimi wants to turn in since he didn't expect Max on the inside. Max reacts to this and has to move a little bit more, causing him to drive over the curbstones with the full car. There was no room for Max to take that corner with all tyres on track, Kimi would've definately hit him.



And then there's this.

And many more drivers going wide or cutting the track without any warnings or penalties. Either give everyone who did it a penalty or let Max get away with it as well, just isn't fair now. And I know I'm Dutch so many people will say I'm biased but come on..

What I'll never understand - I understand it for a game where the players make rules by themselves - but definitely not in a real life situation. By all means and purposes that car (Renault) is on the track. There are even white lines on the outside of the kerb to indicate this...


That said I think the penalty for VER is ridiculous, that was a clean pass, he was definitely faster, RAI even went and gave him more room than needed.

If anything we should (and do) decry the inconsistency by the FIA.

 

[baldgye]

Kind of amazing Lewis's comments ref Vettel in the first sector, Lewis really has stepped up his game as the season has gone on and left Vettel and Ferrari behind

 

[Parker]

Penalty seems fair.

 

[baldgye]

Penalty seems fair.

Yeah, I do agree. If Kimi had jinked to the left to give Max the corner, he would have been all over the marbles... and really, he shouldn't have done that as he had the corner and the racing line.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Was a great race to watch and some very nice moves by both Carlos and Max. I think it's fair to say now though that Vettel now has no chance at all anymore to win the championship. Lewis would have to get 3 DNF's I think, that's not going to happen.

As for the penalty for Max, yes he did leave the track with all 4 tyres but look closely and I think you'll see that what @Famine said is true. You can see that Kimi wants to turn in since he didn't expect Max on the inside. Max reacts to this and has to move a little bit more, causing him to drive over the curbstones with the full car. There was no room for Max to take that corner with all tyres on track, Kimi would've definately hit him.



And then there's this.

And many more drivers going wide or cutting the track without any warnings or penalties. Either give everyone who did it a penalty or let Max get away with it as well, just isn't fair now. And I know I'm Dutch so many people will say I'm biased but come on..

the overtake wasn't completed there though. His cutting wasn't directly linked with the pass. The FIA seem to allow corner cutting everywhere except when it directly causes an overtake. There were technically about 5 corners between the cut and the overtake there.

 

[BMfan]

That said I think the penalty for VER is ridiculous, that was a clean pass, he was definitely faster, RAI even went and gave him more room than needed

I would hate to race you in a game if you think it's alright to have 4 wheels over the white line to pass someone.

 

[TenEightyOne]

That said I think the penalty for VER is ridiculous, that was a clean pass

I don't understand - it isn't a matter of opinion that Verstappen had all four wheels off the track, it's a matter of fact. The penalty is justified.

 

[Firehuntah]

Everyone thinking he intentionally did it to pass Kimi, am I the only seeing that he has to avoid Kimi or he would get hit? Sure he did go a bit too much over the line maybe but what other option did he have at that point? He already committed to the move and it looked like he would have been hit if he stayed on track.

First Kimi left the door wide open when entering that corner. Obviously Max sees the gap and goes for it, it's what he always does.

And then Kimi just turns in, how is Max supposed to fit in there on the track? Kimi shouldn't have tried taking the racing line there when he had another car on his inside already. He could've stayed outside since the next turn is to the left anyway.

I just see no reason to give a penalty for this, especially when nothing has been done with track limits all weekend.

 

[Eva]

Everyone thinking he intentionally did it to pass Kimi, am I the only seeing that he has to avoid Kimi or he would get hit? Sure he did go a bit too much over the line maybe but what other option did he have at that point? He already committed to the move and it looked like he would have been hit if he stayed on track.

First Kimi left the door wide open when entering that corner. Obviously Max sees the gap and goes for it, it's what he always does.

And then Kimi just turns in, how is Max supposed to fit in there on the track? Kimi shouldn't have tried taking the racing line there when he had another car on his inside already. He could've stayed outside since the next turn is to the left anyway.

I just see no reason to give a penalty for this, especially when nothing has been done with track limits all weekend.

Just because he always does, doesn't mean it's right. Does Mexico 2016 ring a bell?

 

[Kurei]

I'm also going to go Alonso and say "Karma" for all the crap Max got away with in the past involving Kimi. (Hungary & Spa ring any bells?)

"Wonderkid" status doesn't mean rules don't apply to him, it doesn't mean Kimi has to leave a space he wasn't alongside for to have in the first place either.

 

[TenEightyOne]

First Kimi left the door wide open when entering that corner. Obviously Max sees the gap and goes for it, it's what he always does.

As @Eva said that doesn't make it right. And, if you watch his onboard Max has time to brake before...

And then Kimi just turns in

How rude, that's not how you do corners!

how is Max supposed to fit in there on the track?

By not trying to fit into a closing gap, it's how racing works and Max has demonstrated that he's generally very good at it.

Kimi shouldn't have tried taking the racing line there when he had another car on his inside already.

He didn't, because there wasn't.

He could've stayed outside since the next turn is to the left anyway.

And he could've gone where he liked, it was his line. And he did.

I just see no reason to give a penalty for this, especially when nothing has been done with track limits all weekend.

Read the rules. By all means appeal other incidents but you should probably avoid trying to claim that it should be legal to pass another car when you've electively left the track.

 

[Firehuntah]

Just because he always does, doesn't mean it's right. Does Mexico 2016 ring a bell?

As @Eva said that doesn't make it right. And, if you watch his onboard Max has time to brake before...

So you're not allowed to try and overtake when seeing a gap then? It's a race is it not? Why should he brake when he already committed to the overtake on the inside? Kimi turned in after Max was already next to him.

How rude, that's not how you do corners!

Not when someone's on your inside, no. Unless you want to risk taking yourself out as well since front and rear tyres from 2 cars hitting eachother tend to do that often.

By not trying to fit into a closing gap, it's how racing works and Max has demonstrated that he's generally very good at it.

The gap was wide open on the entry of the corner so every real racing driver goes for it. It was only closing when Max was already next to him.

He didn't, because there wasn't.

He actually was, are we watching the same video?

And he could've gone where he liked, it was his line. And he did.

Again, Max was already on the inside, I don't see how you can just try and take your racing line at that point without having an accident.

Read the rules. By all means appeal other incidents but you should probably avoid trying to claim that it should be legal to pass another car when you've electively left the track.

It's definately not legal, that's what I've been saying as well.. But I don't see why they only punish Max when others have done it as well. It's the consistency that's once again missing here. And is it still illegal if you do it to avoid an accident?

 

[Carlos]

@Firehuntah , play the video and keep pausing/unpausing it, you see at the exact point Kimi gives this little bit of space Max reacts and goes straight just before he turns in again, too early. Max had so much more traction available this wasn't the only opportunity he would've had. It's a ballsy move but executed poorly. The rules say this is illegal, so the penalty is justified. That the rule didn't apply in other situations doesn't justify lifting the penalty.

Besides that, I think we'd rather see Max pull of stunts within the rules Don't glorify moves that are factually illegal.

 

[mustafur]

I would hate to race you in a game if you think it's alright to have 4 wheels over the white line to pass someone.

4 wheels where on the inside of the ripple strip even, its way too much of a cut to allow in any circumstance.

 

[FutureF1]

Ok. So There are too many posts to quote so this is just in general to everyone saying Max didn't deserve a penalty...

Look, I understand, you guys are passionate. You want to support your driver. But here's the truth. Racing isn't all about making a move whenever you see the opportunity. It's about contemplating and really thinking through every motion you make. That's one of the reasons I love it so much. It is probably the most mentally tasking sport on the planet. If you watch the onboard, yes there is room originally. However, Max should have realized that this was only because Kimi needed to leave room if he wanted to take the racing line. Max should have anticipated Kimi coming across and looked for another way past instead of cutting the track. I'm a sim racer. Hell I'm even 3 years younger than Max, but even I understand that even in the dying laps, there's always a right and wrong time to make a move and that was simply the wrong time.

I agree. Max is quick. But just because he's fast and is willing to overtake anyone anytime doesn't make him a great driver. At least not in my eyes. A properly good driver is one that can anticipate the actions of another driver and use that to their advantage. Max makes moves and hopes others jump out of the way while he's doing them. Most of the time, they're smart enough to know not to be part of a collision. Until he understands that the sport is about thinking your way through everything, I don't see him being very successful. Having raw pace can only get you so far.

 

[Milouse]

Verstapen's penalty is not the story of this GP. The mysterious eagle-shaped shadow is. Stay focus on important matters guys.
I found a video on youtube:

 

[Peter.]

What race in another series at this very track saw some hilariously bad track limit/runoff abuse? Someone posted a video in this forum maybe a year back of it.

 

[DesertPenguin]

So I wasn't tripping when I saw that giant bird. Thought it was a legendary Pokemon lol

Perhaps Max felt that running off track was the only way to ensure he didn't have a Ferrari in his sidepod. Again.

I won't argue where Max's car was, but with Red Bull protesting you have to think what they're argument wil be. Yes, Max went all four off, but the big question isn't what he did. It's why he did it. And outside of the on-track action they will probably protest the extremity of the penalty itself. A bit draconian if I saw so myself.

 

[andrea]

Incredible drive from Verstappen. To be able to get from 17th to fight for the podium is amazing. And this pretty much sours the typical relaxed attitude of American motorsport. The decision isn't going to gain the sport any American fans. It just confirms the stereotype of how anal F1 is. FIA need to sort themselves out.

 

[spyrrari]

 

[baldgye]

Can’t believe Carlos’s move, around the outside of t19 is being overlooked so much... IMO it was the best overtake of the season so far... I like Max a lot, but Saints’s move was ballsier, more impressive and totally on-track.

 

[Roo]

Sure, it's a grey area

I see what you did there (except in this case it was red).

What he should have done is let kimi back past before the last turn and tired to do something similar to what Lewis did at Spa 2008(?)

Given that move earned Hamilton a 25 second penalty, albeit from a much more contentious decision than Max's, that's probably a bad example to use.

 

[baldgye]

Given that move earned Hamilton a 25 second penalty, albeit from a much more contentious decision than Max's, that's probably a bad example to use.

Yeah I know it did, but that penalty was a total joke given that Kimi crashed out of his own accord a few laps later....

But you know what I mean, it's a famous example of cutting a corner to make a move, dropping back and then attacking again right away.

 

[TenEightyOne]

And outside of the on-track action they will probably protest the extremity of the penalty itself. A bit draconian if I saw so myself.

Am I right in thinking that they awarded the smallest available penalty? Draconian would have been a DSQ.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Am I right in thinking that they awarded the smallest available penalty? Draconian would have been a DSQ.

Yep, it was a fair penalty to just swap positions back. Imagine a few years ago where they would have given a drive through penalty if 25 seconds. Think Hamilton At Spa 2008

 

[BrainsBush]

Looking for reliable sources, but it seems that Max got a 15 place penalty at Mexico for calling the steward a 'retard'.
Again not sure if true just read some posts on social media.

 

[baldgye]

Looking for reliable sources, but it seems that Max got a 15 place penalty at Mexico for calling the steward a 'retard'.
Again not sure if true just read some posts on social media.

Vettel called out Charlie Whiting, on the team radio, during the race, which was broadcast to the world over the live feed, and he got a reprimand.


Get a grip.



I have to say, its very disappointing reading all the comments and seeing all the footage from Dutch TV regarding this. It's ridiculous the comparisons they are making trying to justify how unjust it all is.
God only knows what its going to be like when Max is actually fighting for a title or even a race win...
People talk about Sky's bias for British drivers, and I've witnessed Rai1's bias for Ferrari... but both pale in-comparison to what I've seen since the race finished.

 

[AMG 4 LIFE]

Verstapen's penalty is not the story of this GP. The mysterious eagle-shaped shadow is. Stay focus on important matters guys.
I found a video on youtube:

I saw it to.

 

[Jimlaad43]

All this controversy is doing is highlighting some bad circuit design. Tarmac runoff on the outside of corners is sadly necessary, and just needs to be sorted with harsh Kerbs like they had at Copse this year. As soon as the drivers hit those ones they decided to not hit them again. What is ridiculous is having tarmac runoff on the inside. The red painted area should be grass. If it was grass, Max would not have cut the corner as it would have ended in a massive accident. Turn 8 at Istanbul has grass on the inside, and you wouldn't get someone trying it there. Except on the exit of chicanes, grass should go to the edge of the kerbs where possible. There is no safety benefit for it anywhere else.