Touring Cars 2019 DTM Series

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by TheHun99, May 3, 2019.

  1. Sportscar_Rob

    Sportscar_Rob

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  2. tankuroded

    tankuroded

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    BMW might as well pull the plug on their program at this point.
     
  3. Sportscar_Rob

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    The DTM is gone either way, the question is just whether they will do something with the cars. Jens Marquardt already said they would be interested in running Super GT and the amount of modifications to make the cars fully GT500 compliant would be minimal.

    Would be a cheap way to get something out of it, the other alternative is not never race these cars again, they're not legal anywhere else.
     
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  4. Liquid

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    As if Mercedes-Benz pulling out wasn't a big enough wake-up call. A Super GT has been a sort of prediciton/wish of mine for while, creating a unique world series.

    The demise of DTM either way opens up the possibility of a more genuine touring car series in Germany because let's face it, DTM cars are touring cars in name only. Super "GT" is a bit of a clue, as well.
     
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  5. tankuroded

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    ADAC already runs a TCR series in Germany, by the way...

    EDIT: Worth noting that TCR is customer motorsport like GT4/GT3 is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2020
  6. Liquid

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    It does and the demise of DTM would give them a shop window to potentially get some more prominence and prestige.

    There is also the separate VLN series too.
     
  7. MatskiMonk

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    Won't happen. TCR is capped in terms of manufacturer support and without that it won't have the prestige.. plus, they're not even the fastest domestic touring cars... and neither BMW or Mercedes are represented in TCR.

    VLN is irrelevant in this context, it's an endurance series.
     
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  8. Sportscar_Rob

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    Hans Stuck has heavily been lobbying for the DTM to turn into a GT3-based series as a saving grace lately.

    The only problem there is that Germany already has a national GT3 series (ADAC GT Masters), even though that one is more of a pro-am thing in terms of driver abilities. The fact that the ADAC and the DTM-organizing ITR are constantly at odds politicly would probably not be helpful either.

    There really isn't much room for the DTM to maneuver, even if we're putting the COVID-19 crisis aside.
     
  9. MatskiMonk

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    Promote DTM Trophy for a year so DTM becomes a GT4 series for a short while - they already have the entries and the structure in place... or make it customer silhouette racing (a bit like TTA-Elite was) this preserves the look and racing style of DTM, but drops the cost quite a lot.

    I don't think GT3 is the way to go, I don't think TCR works either, and I suspect continuing with Class One is out of reach unless a miracle happens and another manufacturer steps in.

    I hope BMW take the M4 Turbo to Japan in any case... and if they stick around as the sole manufacturer in DTM, I'd like to congratulate them on a dominant 2021 season. #DTMChampions2021 !!!!
     
  10. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    I propose a do over. Private teams use the new AMG A35, M2 and new S3 as the new DTM. :)
     
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  11. NoirAntares

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    I doubt ITR would settle for anything less than Class One, seeing as the class was made for them in the first place.

    I just don't think DTM is as big of a draw in Germany as much as Super GT is here in Japan, which is why the manufacturers just aren't as committed. Outside DTM, Class One cars only have Super GT, which has a primarily domestic audience and very limited international exposure compared to the likes of FE. There's just not enough of them around.
     
  12. MatskiMonk

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    The choice might not be theirs. If no Japanese manufacturer enters DTM, and BMW leaves too, Class One is dead to ITR anyway.
     
  13. MisterWaffles

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    I could see Toyota or Nissan maybe getting interested, less so with Nissan because they're almost in shambles themselves. The only way I can see Class One continuing outside of Japan is if those two manufacturers get interested or BMW makes a bunch more M4s. I don't see either of those happening unfortunately since everyone's going to be concerned with making their losses back from the COVID economy.

    What I think BMW and ITR should do is just abandon Class One and then ADAC should switch to GT3 cars for the 2021/22 DTM series. I think there's room in the market for a fully-pro GT series in Europe. That change of regulations might even entice Audi and Mercedes back with the R8 LMS and AMG GT3 respectively, and BMW could switch to the M6. Maybe Porsche would even consider joining up with the 911.

    So, either switch to more accessible cars or die, those are the only two options I see.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
  14. Sportscar_Rob

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    I think that's the most likely scenario, combined with BMW sending a handful of the leftover M4s to compete in Super GT.
     
  15. Liquid

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    I'm actually surprised that Class One has lasted this long at all. Class Two has been dead since 2000 so it has outlived its sibling by... twenty years? Quite an achievement either way, no matter the quality or perception of the racing.
     
  16. Sportscar_Rob

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    It's because that's what the manfacturers wanted, their $$$ kept the formula alive, even though it was arguably needlessly expensive and didn't provide particularly good racing action most of the time. But their vision of the DTM was for it to be the "Formula One of Touring Cars" in terms of technology and as long as they poured in the money, the class survived.

    It's quite ironic that BMW is the last one standing considering Mercedes and Audi heavily lobbied for them to join and enticed them with the possibility of Class One expanding internationally which was a key demand from BMW to join. The sum total of that international expansion has been one sort of pointless exhibition off-season race....
     
  17. NoirAntares

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    I still remember FIA GT1 switching to GT3 cars in 2012 and they still died, so I don't think even that is a guaranteed lifeline for DTM.
     
  18. GTveteran

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    It is a sad state of affairs indeed. @Sportscar_Rob, you're right, as much as the Dream Race may now seem pointless, I think it was a great idea and the racing itself was very good. I was really hoping for more.

    Anyway, what can the ITR do now? Maybe they should take another hiatus and come back in a couple of years time with a fully electric or hydrogen fueled series. Surely that would entice manufacturers back if they've left (are leaving) the current series to concentrate on Formula E? It's not what I would want to happen, I personally love the Class One cars, and it would be very expensive I would think but the r&d possibilities for the manufacturers should be great too.
     
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  19. RaceFuchs

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    I think there are a couple of things to considerate here. First, DTM has always been about the german OEMs. Those brands won't support traditional motorsport with combustion engines much longer. These decisions are made by the boards and those are not interested in what the fans or drivers want. They will only pump money into electric series or series with hybird technology. And that isn't just true for german OEMs but motorsport in general, there is a reason why the WRC is going hybird, F1 already has it, WEC and IMSA are also going down that road.

    So, if DTM shall continue with new cars, they have to be electric or at least use hybird tech. Funny thing is that DTM was going for hybrid engines as well in 2021 or 2022, but Audi decided the pull the plug anyways. Things are getting a bit complicated because hybrid technology is so damn expensive and electric cars are not that fast and not able to compete in endurance races. At the end of the day - just look at the WEC - all kinds of brands want to compete in big races like Le Mans, but they dont want to spend any money on it. And now there is COVID 19. Just great.

    Is there a solution to all this? Maybe. The great thing about GT3 and GT4 cars is that the OEM dont have to spend any money on them. These are customer cars and its a fine business for the manufacturers. There are already talks about hybrid tech in GT3 cars or maybe all-electric GT cars. So if you start a new DTM with GT3 cars, you could switch to hybrid engines in a couple of years and full-electric engines a couple of years later. Costs would be dramatically cut compared to the Class 1.

    Since ADAC GT Masters is a pro-am affair for private teams, the new GT3-DTM could focus on pro drivers and OEM-backed teams. Its not an ideal solution but it would secure the DTMs future. And then there is the DTM Trophy, featuring GT4 cars and non-pro / gentleman drivers. That is already the natural sub-class to a GT3 DTM class.
     
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  20. 05XR8

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    Audi left DTM and WTCR/TCR(announced along with VW to concentrate on electric racing). If ETCR ever takes off(SEAT are in that series), Maybe E-GT could be the next thing.

    Would seem more like an i-Pace type series, adding manufacturers with E-SUV/CUVs, appears more logical.

    Edit: HA! Just as I post this, gtp has an article about the Audi E-Tron VGT Time trial. Not at all related, but I figure Audi would be more inclined to strengthen its EV programs. What better way to get players and potential future buyers involved.
     
  21. MatskiMonk

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    Have you seen the proposed race format for ETCR... 8-10km, it's more WRX than touring cars, let alone the longer races of DTM.
     
  22. CLowndes888

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    Who says that manufacturers can't adopt a customer based model for Class One?
     
  23. 05XR8

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    More BMX than anything else.
     
  24. CTznOfTime

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    Sorry for the potentially stupid question, but are DTM cars essentially GT3 level cars?
     
  25. MisterWaffles

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    A DTM car is a bespoke chassis built from the ground-up for the series, unlike a GT3 car which is converted from a road car for racing. DTM cars are also lighter and more powerful than GT3 cars, so lap times are comparable to certain Le Mans Prototypes under certain conditions.

    A result of this ground-up approach is the cars are very expensive to build and it’s difficult for manufacturers to justify continuing in a series with such massive expenses required to participate. This is why people have been calling for DTM to adopt GT3 regulations or a different formula altogether that is much less expensive.
     
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  26. CTznOfTime

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    Thank you for getting me up to speed on this topic, I appreciate it!
     
  27. GTveteran

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    Just to add a little more info to help you see the difference between a DTM and GT3 cars, the Super GT series use more or less the same set of rules as the DTM to build their top class GT500 cars. The lower GT300 class is mostly made up of GT3 cars along with a handful of cars built to different rulesets. Both classes run together on the track though.

    There are plenty of races of the current era (2014-present) to watch on YouTube so you can watch the difference for yourself. In most races though, the GT500 cars have generally caught up to and in some cases passed the GT300 cars within ten laps. So quite a difference.

    Apologies if this is not new information to you but it is only true given that the DTM cars now use the 2.0l turbo engines. Hope this helps you too.
     
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  28. MatskiMonk

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    @CTznOfTime Further to what GTVeteran says, comparisons between Super GT and DTM are evident if you are able to watch the two Fuji Dream Races from last year. Not sure if they're on YT, they're geo-blocked here.
     
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  29. GTveteran

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    The Dream Races are available on YouTube now but with Japanese commentary. Try motorsport.tv for the races with English commentary. Possibly other languages too.

    These are both worth a watch as well. The racing was fantastic.
     
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  30. MatskiMonk

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    Oh, I have a solution.. but it's not AUP friendly.