2019 Formula 1 Gran Premio Heineken d'ItaliaFormula 1 

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chromatic9

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Mercedes should've had Lewis stay out instead of going for the early undercut. Leclerc's tyres were getting bad and Lewis coming in just helped him. He could've gone longer and really took it to Leclerc to the final lap.

This was race was perfect or at least a much better chance to complete what Lewis just missed out on in Spa.

Even so it was a great performance from Leclerc at his age and experience. He's the real deal and glad he was given Kimi's seat.
 
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EDK
Yes, I read what you wrote.

I made an objective statement regarding Vettel's recent performance, you took exception.

He validated my assessment in the race, by making a mistake that you likely would not accept even from a new driver, let alone a 4 time champion.

He doubled down on that by making a bafflingly dangerous reentry, and continued to underperform in the race to the extent that he at one point found himself in a battle with a Williams.

I think you're all in on a losing hand, but keep it up if you want.
No, you made a selective statement regarding his performance compare to his teammate judging only by Spa where he underperformed, then you argue about his mistakes to consolidate your opinion. There's two different elements here. (His speed, his mistakes). My first post that you quoted is clarifying that on average across the season that Vettel finished ahead in races more than Leclerc, and it's changing from races to others. About mistakes, I believe both were making an equal amount of mistakes, but the media is much harder on Vettel.
 

PeterJB

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If Bottas wins every remaining race and gets fastest lap with Hamilton second in each Hamilton still wins the title by seven points.

He really needs to step up, or Hamilton really needs to not finish some races.
 

TenEightyOne

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clarifying that on average across the season that Vettel finished ahead in races more than Leclerc, and it's changing from races to others. About mistakes, I believe both were making a lot of mistakes, but the media is much harder on Vettel.

On average Vettel has been Ferrari's priority driver in race strategy, we know that they've kacked on Leclerc in Vettel's favour several times so far. For that reason I don't think final race position is a great indicator.

Leclerc has thrown some good chances away with rookie errors, he is a rookie after all. Vettel has thrown some good chances away with rookie errors, he's a four-time world champion. The media is always going to be harder on the champion than the rookie, particularly when the rookie begins to outperform the champion in race wins and quali times, and I think that's quite right. Anybody who thinks Vettel's current performances are on a par with his best seasons is, in my opinion, deluding themselves.
 

Jimlaad43

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Yeah, Red Bull came strong at the end of last year, and it was only Verstappen being too optimistic or Renault-liability at some points that stopped them winning more races. Ferrari managed to get wins at the last two races they have a chance of being fastest at. They'll need some truly spectacular capitulation from Merc and Red Bull to get another win.
 
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On average Vettel has been Ferrari's priority driver in race strategy, we know that they've kacked on Leclerc in Vettel's favour several times so far. For that reason I don't think final race position is a great indicator.

Leclerc has thrown some good chances away with rookie errors, he is a rookie after all. Vettel has thrown some good chances away with rookie errors, he's a four-time world champion. The media is always going to be harder on the champion than the rookie, particularly when the rookie begins to outperform the champion in race wins and quali times, and I think that's quite right. Anybody who thinks Vettel's current performances are on a par with his best seasons is, in my opinion, deluding themselves.
On average Ferrari have made the sensible choice to prioritize the car who looked in better shape to get a better result in hindsight. Other than Australia where it was useless, I believe they were fair for both. I'm not deluding myself, Seb isn't in his best seasons. I admit, he's aging after all. But to say that Leclerc has outperformed him massively across the whole season is too much.

And Leclerc is not a rookie, he made around 35 starts in two seasons, that's about where Hamilton won his first championship. Don't overplay his results.
 
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Just Redbulls luck to winge and complain about Renault engines to change to the worst on the grid, Renault proves today their engines have stepped up big time and I would say they are at or close to Mercedes in Power atleast.
 
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On average Ferrari have made the sensible choice to prioritize the car who looked in better shape to get a better result in hindsight. Other than Australia where it was useless, I believe they were fair for both. I'm not deluding myself, Seb isn't in his best seasons. I admit, he's aging after all. But to say that Leclerc has outperformed him massively across the whole season is too much.

And Leclerc is not a rookie, he made around 35 starts in two seasons, that's about where Hamilton won his first championship. Don't overplay the his results.

Egotism is clouding you're judgement, the drivers table doesn't lie...
 

EDK

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No, you made a selective statement regarding his performance compare to his teammate judging only by Spa where he underperformed, then you argue about his mistakes to consolidate your opinion. There's two different elements here. (His speed, his mistakes). My first post that you quoted is clarifying that on average across the season that Vettel finished ahead in races more than Leclerc, and it's changing from races to others. About mistakes, I believe both were making an equal amount of mistakes, but the media is much harder on Vettel.
It was not in relation only to Spa, come on man.

Do you honestly think Vettel was on the mark at Austria or Hungary?

Look, man. You quoted me to start this, and I'm not internet debate man, by any stretch.

But I really don't think you are seeing this clearly.
 
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Just Redbulls luck to winge and complain about Renault engines to change to the worst on the grid, Renault proves today their engines have stepped up big time and I would say they are at or close to Mercedes in Power atleast.
Overhead shots seam to show Renault losing ground , slightly , over the first 40-50 meters out of a corner but able to hold their own once traction is under control
 

Dennisch

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One decent race from the Renaults doesn't mean that they are there. They will be struggling to reach the points next race.
 
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Agreed they're still a ways off being a contender , but a fraction here and an increment there and. all of a sudden you've gained 1/4 of a second .
And in F1 time that's about a week
 

TenEightyOne

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One decent race from the Renaults doesn't mean that they are there. They will be struggling to reach the points next race.

Yep, their car's poor on the brakes and poor in the corners. Monza has 5 braking zones and long straights, admittedly the engine had to give good power for them to make use of it but overall I think Monza flattered them far beyond their normal level.
 

McLaren

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Mercedes winning every race is no longer a given for the remainder of the season.
Wouldn't be surprised if that was Ferrari's "strategy" all along. Correcting their mistakes right at the point it could be too late has been a repeat offense so far.
Schumacher needs another year in F2 at the very least. He hasn't been performing well enough and is still very young. Give him time and he'll be good enough. Giovinazzi needs another year before he's ready for Ferrari anyway. Vettel won't be sacked, he'll have to retire or move away himself.
What are the odds Vettel goes back to Horner and asks for Albon's spot? Does Red Bull welcome him back with open arms based on 4-straight championships?
 
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What are the odds Vettel goes back to Horner and asks for Albon's spot? Does Red Bull welcome him back with open arms based on 4-straight championships?

He would be the type that would go to Mercedes.
Bottas is on a 1 year contract IIRC.
 

Grand Prix

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This race proves you don't need impressive overtaking statistics to make it an exciting race. You just need drama, preferably from a battle for the lead. Was on the edge of my seat for most of it. :lol: It's amazing how Leclerc was able to stay in front for so long, although straight line speed did help here.

This is why having a nice variety of circuits on the calendar is important, it helps to shake things up a bit with different winners on occasion. From the tight and slow corners of Monaco, to the fast sweeping curves of Spa, to the long straights of Monza, and everything in between.
 

McLaren

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He would be the type that would go to Mercedes.
Bottas is on a 1 year contract IIRC.
But that's probably founded on if Bottas leaves on his own; where would he go? Lewis & Mercedes are probably more than content to keep him around as the #2. And last I read, that's now through next season.
 
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I_IGrayfoxI_I
But that's probably founded on if Bottas leaves on his own; where would he go? Lewis & Mercedes are probably more than content to keep him around as the #2. And last I read, that's now through next season.

True.

I doubt they will ditch bottas just to replace him with a stuck up driver like vettel.
 

ROAD_DOGG33J

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What are the odds Vettel goes back to Horner and asks for Albon's spot? Does Red Bull welcome him back with open arms based on 4-straight championships?

Not sure why he would want to. He would end up in a similar position as he is in Ferrari, unless Verstappen moves. And as they say in F1: "you're only as good as your last race."
 

McLaren

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Not sure why he would want to. He would end up in a similar position as he is in Ferrari, unless Verstappen moves. And as they say in F1: "you're only as good as your last race."
Of course.

I'm operating under the assumption it's done with Vettel knowing he's lost his spark, though, that seeking out Horner & Newey once again could not only keep him in a competitive car, but back with a more stable team that has a 4-time championship chemistry with him. The question is naturally, can he play nice with Max & rekindle with RBR (also assuming none of the Toro Rosso youngsters are working out as they'd like), but I don't know where else he would go that would put him a position to keep winning if this time with Ferrari doesn't end on a high note. I haven't read what his relationship with Ferrari has been like since he joined & how things were when Kimi was there, but it doesn't appear any better than his final season with RBR.

As mentioned earlier, Mick seems to be Ferrari's next driver-up in a couple seasons and LeClerc as of now, seems clearly to be his future teammate.
 
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As far as making the case for his future at the top team, Bottas is proving that he isn't good enough to be #1.

I think it’s worse than that, the role of the number 2 is to get the best possible result of the number 1 can’t.

As his engineer said, it was his race to loose, and he lost it. If I was Toto I’d be pretty upset that Bottas couldn’t even pressure Leclerc on much much fresher tyres...