281 hp K20a2-powered Civic (from Octane thread)

[mafia_boy]

Yeah, I mixed myself up at the last second Famine. Knew what I was saying, just muffed that last line. His rating would be 109, it's just Sunoco giving two different figures on their same site.


Also to refer back Famine since I missed a bit, 202-203hp is just over 200hp, some like yourself give allowance up to 212hp and I'd personally agree with that philosiphy too, but 225hp to myself is just that, 225hp....not just over 200hp. 👍

Ohwell, I'll continue this octane talk with you chaps later on, I'm crashing and burning with my body running on fumes right now so sleep time for me now but this has been an interesting discussion. 👍

I'll be back.

 

[Duke]

Ive posted some picks before but here it goes again! Taken from my cellphone because i broke my digital camera and i really dont need one!

How about some proof that you actually own this particular car? Repeat that engine bay shot, but with a handwritten sign saying "Hello GTP from horde_r35" sitting on the valve cover. That should do it.

 

[Horde_R35]

How about some proof that you actually own this particular car? Repeat that engine bay shot, but with a handwritten sign saying "Hello GTP from horde_r35" sitting on the valve cover. That should do it.

Sorry but in my previous post i pointed that i sold my engine, wich is out of the car since thursday! But i can do that but without the engine, maybe? You can see the car anyway...

 

[Joey D]

So you have no pictures from your engine build or a picture of the car? I photograph my car all the time and it's nothing special, I think all enthusiast do.

 

[chilledant]

Hey Guys.
I like the fuel debate it makes for great reading.
@horde r35, Did it not ever cross your mind that there may be quite a number of technically trained people who ready this forum..? You say your injectors and few things make your 281bhp but state you have standard head, valves, pistons. question why would you spend money on costly injectors but not have flowed your head..? running 109 octane with a standard head gasket..
Do you know what a flow bench is,, i feel you were ripped off with the fuel as well..
Just know one thing i have come acoss highly intelligent people on this forum/website,,For me things about your statements don't sound wright. Always have proof to back your theory up.
Thank you, Chilli
Qualified BMW diagnostic technician..

 

[Horde_R35]

So you have no pictures from your engine build or a picture of the car? I photograph my car all the time and it's nothing special, I think all enthusiast do.

Read the other pages...

Hey Guys.
I like the fuel debate it makes for great reading.
@horde r35, Did it not ever cross your mind that there may be quite a number of technically trained people who ready this forum..? You say your injectors and few things make your 281bhp but state you have standard head, valves, pistons. question why would you spend money on costly injectors but not have flowed your head..? running 109 octane with a standard head gasket..
Do you know what a flow bench is,, i feel you were ripped off with the fuel as well..
Just know one thing i have come acoss highly intelligent people on this forum/website,,For me things about your statements don't sound wright. Always have proof to back your theory up.
Thank you, Chilli
Qualified BMW diagnostic technician..

The qualified diagnostic technician part is supposed to mean anything to me?! You guys at BMW are Honda experts too? Theres no diference at all between you and the old man in the corner that makes reparings and revisions to the cars. Everyone makes mistakes and blow engines up! By simply dont changing a water pump. A friend of mine has a 335d and went to the BMW to repair a problem of the car! The fantastic 335d all of a sudden started to cut out and turning off the engine (at the freeway)! He went four times there to solve the problem! Thats not normal to me... at the end he asked for the complaints book!

Another friend of mine has a Civic Type R brand new and the first time he went to the revision (changing oil and braking oil, air filters and other things) he wanted to change the front tires for new ones! When he went to pick up the car he had a loose wheel!

So sorry, but that doesnt mean anything to me!

 

[Duke]

Sorry but in my previous post i pointed that i sold my engine, wich is out of the car since thursday! But i can do that but without the engine, maybe? You can see the car anyway...

How very convenient.

So sorry, but that doesnt mean anything to me!

Playing games, refusing to give straight answers, and posting pictures of a car that could belong to anyone don't mean anything to us.

And maybe the words of several moderators backed by an administrator should mean something to you:

POST ACTUAL PHOTOGRAPHIC PROOF AND GIVE A FULL BUILD LIST, or STOP CLAIMING THINGS YOU CAN'T BACK UP.

No more cute guessing games and passive aggressive attacks. Put up or shut up. Clear enough?

 

[Horde_R35]

How very convenient.

If this thread was open before thursday i could gladly take the picture. But i can take a picture of the engine and after that take a picture of the car! Same engine and same car with a paper saying "Hello GTP!" Yes? No?

EDIT: Actually i think the engine is still on the floor next to the car!

 

[chilledant]

Hi horde r35,
You are the man.."NOT" Please would you take care in listening to the forum administrators. "I WOULD"
P.S. I started my apprenticeship with Mercedes benz and honda, When they were still joined together here in SA.
Judging by the comments that come from you, I was just wondering if the technicians in lisben seem to think they know as much as you, Then maybe they will have diagnosing problems on BMW.
Correction: Brake oil.? LOL. The last time i checked it's called= BRAKE FLUID. Get your GRAMMER ability's wright, Then maybe i will enter into discussion's with.
"BRAKE OIL" LOL

NOTE. I asked horde r35, Two questions which he was unable to answer and quoted me on but instead i get two lame storys as a response,, I find it hard to believe what he is saying..

 

[Horde_R35]

I really dont care what you or anyone here really think. Ill post my proofs soon enough. My GRAMMAR you were saying? Because i dont know the word grammer. Its called LISBON or in Portuguese - Lisboa! Smart man you ! Mr. technician, capital cities or countrys start with a capital letter i believe! I take that has an offence! Maybe you havent noticed... but the mother language in Portugal is actually portuguese and NOT english, there for some small errors may occur once in a while! And here in my contry we call it oil, because it really is one! Im able to answer every single question but i wont to people like you. Be very carefull when talking about my country or the inteligence of the Portuguese.

EDIT: After a comma, a capital letter?! And three times in your post, huh? Right after the word NOTE, i think you should have used a colon! After the word RESPONSE two commas?! Every time i look at your text i see more and more errors. GRAMMAR errors. Many people here can correct my grammar, but i really think you lost your right to do so !

 

[mafia_boy]

Horde, bro, seriously......listen to what Scaff, Famine and now Duke have told you. I'm stressing this in the most polite way possible, but even after helping you (mainly because I like challenges, like Famine's challenge to fill in the blanks! ) it's starting to look like you're digging yourself a hole to China!!

I would accept a photo of said car, and said motor next to car....BOTH of them with "Hi GTPlanet!!"......have you got any dyno sheets or anything like that you can scan up for the public to view?? If not, then I'm backing out of this one and leaving you to the wolves.

 

[Horde_R35]

Horde, bro, seriously......listen to what Scaff, Famine and now Duke have told you. I'm stressing this in the most polite way possible, but even after helping you (mainly because I like challenges, like Famine's challenge to fill in the blanks! ) it's starting to look like you're digging yourself a hole to China!!

I would accept a photo of said car, and said motor next to car....BOTH of them with "Hi GTPlanet!!"......have you got any dyno sheets or anything like that you can scan up for the public to view?? If not, then I'm backing out of this one and leaving you to the wolves.

Again, ill post them when i can mate! Wolves? What wolves?

 

[mafia_boy]

Wolves = Mods & Admin. They feast on the carcasses of many a member, as the banned user log can illustrate.

 

[chilledant]

@horde
Brake Fluid is made from a plant. just so by the way.
You can't answer questions people ask you, what's your next lie going to be?
One thing i learnt is, a dog has it's day but a bull dog has a weekend.
So have a great weekend..
P.S, Watch out for the lion's now.

 

[Duke]

I really dont care what you or anyone here really think. Ill post my proofs soon enough.

Let's see it then. Like I said, put up or shut up.

I do not want see another post on this forum discussing your car, without a complete build sheet, pictures of the car and the magic engine with hand-lettered signs, and a dyno sheet that is tied to the car by VIN (serial number) or registration.

YOU have made the claims. YOU have refused to give a complete answer to straightforward questions. YOU have changed your story many times. YOU have conveniently sold your magic engine.

If you don't care what anyone here really thinks, go away. But if you keep posting in this manner, making unbelievable claims without backing them up, I will make you go away.

The choice is yours. Put up or shut up. No other response will be accepted.


[EDIT] I have a few questions about your car:

What driveability issues have you had to overcome?

What transmission are you using?

What clutch are you using?

What size are your tires? Width, aspect ratio, and rim diameter.

 

[mafia_boy]

YOU have conveniently sold your magic engine.

Apparantly not Duke if you look at post #107, I'll requote it....

If this thread was open before thursday i could gladly take the picture. But i can take a picture of the engine and after that take a picture of the car! Same engine and same car with a paper saying "Hello GTP!" Yes? No?

EDIT: Actually i think the engine is still on the floor next to the car!

I'll let you be to feast on his carcass.

 

[Horde_R35]

[EDIT] I have a few questions about your car:

What driveability issues have you had to overcome?

What transmission are you using?

What clutch are you using?

What size are your tires? Width, aspect ratio, and rim diameter.

I had many problems at the beggining keeping the car in the track! MASSIVE wheel spin in 2nd gear going out of the corners and not having power steering didnt help much... Probably the 6speed gearbox didnt either.

Im used driveshaft shop transmissions but corrently using from integra typer.

Clutchmasters FX400.

Front tires 215/50/15 Toyo R888 and at the back 195/55/15 Toyo R888.

Quaife LSD.

My rims:
http://www.rotawheels.com/wheels.asp?wheelid=40

Flat black in 15 x 7.5 4 x 100 +30

In my daily EG9 i have the Circuit 10 in bronze.

 

[Horde_R35]

The pictures (all taken from my cell phone):

1:Greetings
2:Todays sport news paper
3:My engine bay
4:The red coupe where the engine is now
5:Todays paper/Greetings/engine in coupe
6:Transmissions and stuff
7:Toda racing flywheel
8:RC injectores
9:A larger picture of the news paper where you can actually see the date
10:Rotronics dyno made 262hp/251nm (but an old one. Just cant find the last tune made) on 93 octane/stock head gasket/no adjustable poly exhaust
11: The gasoline that i mix with 93 (and only for 1/4 mile use)

 

[Eric.]

Just thought I'd mention that Rotronics dynos give flywheel horsepower...

 

[Famine]

Just thought I'd mention that Rotronics dynos give flywheel horsepower...

Indeed.

A few things to note:

• 262CV isn't 262hp - it's 259hp.
• 259hp peak once isn't 259hp - the dyno average is 255.6hp
• These are just semantics. However you look at the numbers, they aren't 281hp - I'll reiterate what I said to Eric that 250hp from a K20 is no problem, but the law of diminishing returns comes into effect - the more you try to get, the harder it is.

Now let's check out the graph. At your peak power, the dyno's recording roughly 210Nm torque - that's 150lbft (which is oddly exactly the number posited at that rpm with those mods predicted by the engine builder to whom I referred earlier). In order to jack your power up that extra 22hp, you're in need of another 18lbft or so and nothing you've got will enable that - or you need to convince what you have to stay there for another 1000rpm which... won't go well. For reference, not even the peak torque you record in that session would be enough, and it arrives 3,500rpm too early.


250hp? No problem. 260hp... yeah, if you've got money to throw at it. 280hp? Maybe, but not with stock block, pistons and compression or you won't be using it on the street - the cams would be so lumpy and the timing advanced so far it'd need a tow to start it.

Newest dyno or it didn't happen. I'd also like to see some 1/4mi ETs.

 

[Duke]

The pictures (all taken from my cell phone):

1:Greetings

Good job on the pictures. 👍

250hp? No problem. 260hp... yeah, if you've got money to throw at it. 280hp? Maybe, but not with stock block, pistons and compression or you won't be using it on the street - the cams would be so lumpy and the timing advanced so far it'd need a tow to start it.

Newest dyno or it didn't happen. I'd also like to see some 1/4mi ETs.

And I would very much like to know what transmission you had attached to the engine, and what size wheels/tires you're running. 👍

i run bp ultimate 98 RON

On topic! 👍

 

[Eric.]

Duke, he posted that on the last page I think.

 

[Horde_R35]

Good job on the pictures. 👍



And I would very much like to know what transmission you had attached to the engine, and what size wheels/tires you're running. 👍

Thanks! I posted those informations on the last page:tup:! About the dyno... It was the car 1st test dyno, so we were experimenting ignitions and fuel mixtures! The guy is a good tuner but it was his very first K20 so it was pretty good! In the end we retuned the car to 262cv/251nm wich was test 4. In the wide band, while on the road the car is marking a 12/12.5 in air fuel mixture wich i think its good. If you put "potencia de cavalos" in google translator it shows - horse power! Someone told in this thread that 281hp is possible with stock block internals... 210Nm?? In all the testings none gave lesse then 245Nm. Wont be bothered with this subject anymore, because already had to rush to the garage after work and made my friend stay there when he wanted to go home... im tired of this argument. Cheers

EDIT: My last question (to Famine) is: Wich converter did you use to change CV to HP? And what was the mathematical you used?

 

[Duke]

Duke, he posted that on the last page I think.

My mistake - thanks for letting me know I missed it.

6speed gearbox corrently using from integra typer.

Front tires 215/50/15 Toyo R888 and at the back 195/55/15 Toyo R888.

Flat black in 15 x 7.5

Thanks for that information. Let's run some quick numbers:

This tire size equates to 859.48 tire revolutions per mile (TRPM).
horde_r35's previously claimed top speed was 174 MPH = 2.9 miles per minute (MPM).
That's 2.9 MPM X 859.48 TRPM = 2492.49 revolutions per minute (RPM) at the driveshafts to go the claimed 174 mph. Remember that number.

The Y2M3 transmission used with the K20 Integra Type R engine has a final drive ratio of 4.764/1, which is pretty short. Multiply this number times the driveshaft RPM to get the internal RPM of the transmission.

5th gear in this transmission is barely an overdrive at 0.972.
6th gear is a taller overdrive for good highway cruising at 0.780.

Multiply the transmission internal RPM times these numbers to get the input shaft/engine RPM speed required to make a given output speed. Remember that the wheel/driveshaft has to be turning 2492.49 RPM to travel the claimed 174 MPH. So see what I do here:

2492.49 RPM X 4.764 = a whopping 11874.23 revolutions per minute as the internal speed of the transmission. But since 5th and 6th are both overdrive, the input speed coming from the engine is actually slightly lower than that (but not much). Next step, for both 5th and 6th gears:

11874.23 RPM X 0.780 (6th gear, cruising) = 9261 engine RPM required to reach 174 MPH.

11874.23 RPM X 0.972 (5th gear) = 11,541 engine RPM required to reach 174 MPH.

So even giving this car the absolutely most liberal benefit of the doubt, it's turning 9260 RPM against a theoretical maximum redline of 8800 RPM on stock ITR K20A internals. The tach in the instrument cluster shows operating redline of 7900 RPM.

Now, I'm familiar with driving cars at very high speed. It takes quite a bit of time even for a powerful car to reach its actual maximum velocity. Many cars cannot overcome drag in their top gear because the effective ratio is too tall. At 280hp I don't believe this car would make it, and at 260hp I don't believe it AT ALL.

But even assuming that this magic engine is able to reach top speed in 6th gear (which I seriously seriously doubt), it will have to sustain a minimum 450+ RPM overrev condition on stock internals for several minutes under perfect conditions in order to achieve the claimed 174 MPH top speed.

So I'm calling bullcrap on both the claimed 280 HP and the claimed 174 MPH top speed. Which is a shame because it actually sounds like a pretty nice little car; it's just had some very exaggerated claims made about it.

 

[Horde_R35]

I told in this thread before Duke... My engine is the K20a2 with the gearbox EUROPEAN k20a2. My engine is set to 9300 (real RPMs). (Did the 174mph in a 17kms highway in a test with a Subaru impreza and we did 8kms full thootle) Wich concludes:

http://www.teammfactory.com/gearcalculator.php?kmh=1&tirewidth=215&tireprofile=50&wheelsize=15&tirediameter1=23.46&maxrpm1=9300&finaldrive1=4.764&gearratio1=3.266&gearratio2=2.13&gearratio3=1.517&gearratio4=1.147&gearratio5=0.921&gearratio6=0.738&trannytype=&tranny=Calculate+Transmission+1&tirewidth2=215&tireprofile2=50&wheelsize2=15&tirediameter2=23.44&maxrpm2=8400&finaldrive2=4.4&gearratioa=3.23&gearratiob=2.105&gearratioc=1.458&gearratiod=1.107&gearratioe=0.848&gearratiof=0&trannytype=

 

[Famine]

If you put "potencia de cavalos" in google translator it shows - horse power!

EDIT: My last question (to Famine) is: Wich converter did you use to change CV to HP? And what was the mathematical you used?

CV - cheval vapeur, cavalli and cavalos - means "horse power". PS - pferden stärke - means "horse power". They are, however, metric horsepower, the value of which is 1CV = 75kgm/s. Horsepower is an imperial measurement, the value of which is 1hp = 550lbft/s.

Conversion from one to the other is very easy. 1PS/CV is equal to 0.986hp

210Nm?? In all the testings none gave lesse then 245Nm

*sigh* 210Nm AT PEAK POWER. Look at the dyno charts you posted. You're shy 20hp (give or take) and torque is what makes horsepower - you need more (much more) torque at your power peak or you won't get the extra power you need to corroborate your claim.

I told in this thread before Duke... My engine is the K20a2 with the gearbox EUROPEAN k20a2. My engine is set to 9300 (real RPMs). (Did the 174mph in a 8kms highway in a test with a Subaru impreza WRX)

Yeah, sadly for you the dyno you posted a month after making that claim has you short on both the engine revs required (tops out at under 9000rpm) and, as an extension of that, the power required (tops out 20hp below the claim and, conveniently, the power required to do that speed in that car). See how you make the claim in April? See how I rebut that claim in April? See how your 261hp (not enough) dyno was done in May (or July, if it's done US style)?

We've been over this before, and I agree with Duke completely. I'm all for people modifying cars in this manner - it's just a pity when they break out the exaggeration stick.

 

[Duke]

You can set the ECU to remove the rev limiter entirely if you wish, but it does not mean the stock internals will handle it. 450 minimum extra RPMs is quite a bit over stock.

And even allowing you all 280 hp and 6th gear top speed, the car is going to be drag limited to below 160 MPH based on aerodynamics alone. Sorry.

 

[Horde_R35]

You can set the ECU to remove the rev limiter entirely if you wish, but it does not mean the stock internals will handle it. 450 minimum extra RPMs is quite a bit over stock.

And even allowing you all 280 hp and 6th gear top speed, the car is going to be drag limited to below 160 MPH based on aerodynamics alone. Sorry.

Here in Portugal we are not afraid of going 17km full thootle to obtain the engine/car top speed. The magazines say the EP3 only goes to 235km at 7400rpm but the engine goes to 8000 and revs at 8300. Thats almost 1000rpm! I myself driven and seen the car full stock doing 8100, wich is 257km/h. Always with slipstream by the way and i know we`re criminals , but thats not the point! If you want youtube videos i can show you, but they are ilegal street racing videos... after seeing some videos youll get my point. By PM?

 

[Duke]

The magazines say the EP3 only goes to 235km at 7400rpm but the engine goes to 8000 and revs at 8300. Thats almost 1000rpm

And to make 174 MPH you are asking your car to go another 1000 RPM beyond that, or almost 1400 RPM over the tach-indicated redline of 7900.

And slipstreaming or not, somebody has to cut the air at 175 MPH. Which is exponentially harder than cutting the air at 160 MPH - drag increases at approximately half the square of the increase in velocity. Which means as you go faster, it gets radically harder to increase speed. 280 HP isn't going to do it in a Civic hatch.

 

[Horde_R35]

And to make 174 MPH you are asking your car to go another 1000 RPM beyond that, or almost 1400 RPM over the tach-indicated redline of 7400.

And slipstreaming or not, somebody has to cut the air at 175 MPH. Which is exponentially harder than cutting the air at 160 MPH - drag increases at approximately half the square of the increase in velocity. Which means as you go faster, it gets radically harder to increase speed. 280 HP isn't going to do it in a Civic hatch.

The RPM metter goes to 8000rpm and revs till 8300. Didnt find stock EP3 races, but i found a friends video with suspension, ECU, air intake, complete exaust line with exhaust manifold (smaller milimeters for stock engines). Do you want me to send you the link by PM?