281 hp K20a2-powered Civic (from Octane thread)

[Famine]

And Duke's pointing out that 8,300rpm won't cut it - you need 9200rpm to turn those wheels through that gearbox to hit 174mph. Even if you have the power (you don't) in the right place (you don't) to get there.

Pferdestärke

I couldn't be bothered to find the umlauted a, so I used the English transliterational e.

But now you've found it, I'll paste it in

 

[Horde_R35]

And Duke's pointing out that 8,300rpm won't cut it - you need 9200rpm to turn those wheels through that gearbox to hit 174mph. Even if you have the power (you don't) in the right place (you don't) to get there.



I couldn't be bothered to find the umlauted a, so I used the English transliterational e.

But now you've found it, I'll paste it in

In the (old) dyno sheet you can see the cars has power till 8700 and i already told the cars can go to 9300 (but the engine doent have the enough power to rev it alone). Use this link:

http://www.teammfactory.com/gearcalculator.php?kmh=1&tirewidth=215&tireprofile=50&wheelsize=15&tirediameter1=23.46&maxrpm1=8700&finaldrive1=4.764&gearratio1=3.266&gearratio2=2.13&gearratio3=1.517&gearratio4=1.147&gearratio5=0.921&gearratio6=0.738&trannytype=&tranny=Calculate+Transmission+1&tirewidth2=215&tireprofile2=50&wheelsize2=15&tirediameter2=23.44&maxrpm2=8400&finaldrive2=4.4&gearratioa=3.23&gearratiob=2.105&gearratioc=1.458&gearratiod=1.107&gearratioe=0.848&gearratiof=0&trannytype=

 

[Famine]

In the (old) dyno sheet you can see the cars has power till 8700

Yes, that one where I pointed out that you don't have enough power to do it and the torque dropoff meant you'd never do it. That one done a month after you made the claim.

A month after you made the claim you neither had enough power nor revs to do what you claimed to do. You had 258hp at 8,700rpm and you needed more than 300hp at 9,300rpm a month previously. Come on, Matilda. The jig is up.

 

[a112]

You can set the ECU to remove the rev limiter entirely if you wish, but it does not mean the stock internals will handle it. 450 minimum extra RPMs is quite a bit over stock.

That's a bit shame for Honda if it can't handle that RPMs,since Fiat SOHC (dates from 1960's) can handle 10000 RPM's in almost all variations with not reinforced but lightened/machined OEM parts.

 

[Duke]

In the (old) dyno sheet you can see the cars has power till 8700 and i already told the cars can go to 9300 (but the engine doent have the enough power to rev it alone). Use this link:

I've done the math; I don't need the link. You need to turn almost 9300 to reach the claimed speed. Never mind the rev limiter, I do not believe that the stock K20a2 internals will physically tolerate that much overrev for long enough to reach that speed, even if you magically make enough power to do it. Assuming that the valves don't float and the rods don't stretch, you'll never keep it oiled maintaining that RPM for more than a few seconds. And it's going to take sustained minutes approaching that speed to reach 174.

For the power you are claiming to make, the car will not even reach 160 MPH thanks to drag. Yes 174 MPH is a theoretical maximum, but it would be in a vacuum to be possible. And somebody has to be at the front of the line for you to slipstream.

Plus I don't care what your engine does, a Civic on a semi-street suspension is going to be downright hairy, if not totally undrivable, at anything like those speeds without a very well-designed aero package (none visible on your car). You'll be lucky to keep it pointed in one direction long enough.

I'm sorry. It's a nice car, but it's not the magic bullet you claim it is.

 

[chilledant]

You can set the ECU to remove the rev limiter entirely if you wish, but it does not mean the stock internals will handle it. 450 minimum extra RPMs is quite a bit over stock.

And even allowing you all 280 hp and 6th gear top speed, the car is going to be drag limited to below 160 MPH based on aerodynamics alone. Sorry.

Honda's always had programmerable fuel injection (PFI) they started that in the SC9/SH4 DOHC 160i. I Think the D16 engine's, also the SC9 150i SOHC had that management system.
You could do loads with honda's very own HHT (hand held tester) great tool that is.
One thing i must say Honda have supper strong engines standerd.
All things have limits as well.

 

[Duke]

One thing i must say Honda have supper strong engines standerd.
All things have limits as well.

And that's my point. Even accepting the 280 HP figure as given (which I don't) it is physically not enough to move the car even 160 MPH.

And even though you can set the rev limiter wherever you want, the stock internals will not sustain the required RPM. At the very minimum it will not keep up with the oiling and will spin a bearing. Care to imagine what happens to an engine with a spun bearing at 9,000 RPM? And that's assuming that valvespring float hasn't already crashed the pistons into the valves...

 

[Famine]

Care to imagine what happens to an engine with a spun bearing at 9,000 RPM?

Now imagine it happening at 174mph

 

[chilledant]

Yes i agree with you guys 100%.
I have seen loads of twisted rods in my day, Had this E46 M3 at work about 2 months ago were the one piston and rod was the size of a peach. Will upload sum pic's tomorrow bro.

 

[Duke]

That's a bit shame for Honda if it can't handle that RPMs,since Fiat SOHC (dates from 1960's) can handle 10000 RPM's in almost all variations with not reinforced but lightened/machined OEM parts.

Fiat's SOHC was what, 800cc? 1200cc? Lightened, balanced, and blueprinted? That doesn't reflect badly on a 2,000cc Honda motor at all.

Incidetally I split this off into a separate thread.

 

[Horde_R35]

Diferent valve springs do the trick. But not for long... i never said it was safe, but possible. Eventually when continuing making those top speeds (i sent you in the PM) the engine will blow. Some sooner then others.

 

[Duke]

Diferent valve springs do the trick. But not for long... i never said it was safe, but possible.

"Not for long" literally meaning in 10-15 second bursts. Nowhere near enough to make it up to that speed. To keep it oiled for more than that you'd need a dry sump oiling system pushing at least 100 psi oil pressure.

 

[homeforsummer]

Regarding the 174mph claim:

A few things spring to mind:
- Was the speed reading taken using a proper piece of GPS timing gear such as a V-Box or just using the speedometer?
- Is the rolling radius of the current wheel and tyre setup the same as standard?
- If not, has the speedometer been re-calibrated to the new wheel/tyre diameter?
- Assuming rolling stock is different from that of standard and the speed reading has been taken off a (notoriously inaccurate) speedometer, is it possible that the true top speed is nearer perhaps 160mph, and the indicated speed was the 174 that's being banded about?

 

[Horde_R35]

"Not for long" literally meaning in 10-15 second bursts. Nowhere near enough to make it up to that speed. To keep it oiled for more than that you'd need a dry sump oiling system pushing at least 100 psi oil pressure.

May i ask if you actually saw the video? Is there any possibility to post the same link here for everyone to see?

 

[a112]

Fiat's SOHC was what, 800cc? 1200cc? Lightened, balanced, and blueprinted? That doesn't reflect badly on a 2,000cc Honda motor at all.

Incidetally I split this off into a separate thread.

1100/1300/1400/1500/1600/1800 variations.

There are a lot of them in 1600cc that are running lightened and balanced pistons,rods,flywheel and crankshaft with a bit harsher cam and twin carbs (mostly Dellorto DHLA40) that are running on 9000 daily.

But again,i realized eventually that you were referring to 170mph probably under fully load,so i apologize for inconvenience.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Regarding the 174mph claim:

A few things spring to mind:
- Was the speed reading taken using a proper piece of GPS timing gear such as a V-Box or just using the speedometer?
- Is the rolling radius of the current wheel and tyre setup the same as standard?
- If not, has the speedometer been re-calibrated to the new wheel/tyre diameter?
- Assuming rolling stock is different from that of standard and the speed reading has been taken off a (notoriously inaccurate) speedometer, is it possible that the true top speed is nearer perhaps 160mph, and the indicated speed was the 174 that's being banded about?

It was taken with GPS.

 

[mafia_boy]

Care to imagine what happens to an engine with a spun bearing at 9,000 RPM?

Now imagine it happening at 174mph

Imagining, imagining, imagining..........

*imagines big 🤬 fireball of a motor and tranny!!*

 

[The Outlaw]

With a stock K20 bottom end/rotating assembly and upgraded valvetrain you might be able to hit 174mph at ~9300rpm, but it's a hell of a gamble to say the least IMO The K20 is a solid motor, but as mentioned, the amount of load on the engine at that speed and for the extended period taken to achieve terminal velocity can be pretty detrimental to the rotating assemblies long term health (particularly the rods, rod bearings, and valves if they are stock)...or even short term health Just a few thousandths of rod stretch (which can accumulate over each trip over 9k rpm under high load) and the entire thing can potentially grenade when the piston hits the head or valve.

The EG6 is a very light car with a relatively small frontal area, so with 280hp, if the conditions were in your favor (tail wind, slight downhill grade) you may get lucky and do 174mph... that's if your motor holds up on that particular pass.

I found this video on YT. Pretty impressive...

 

[LSX]

Why is the wheel cocked to the left?

 

[The Outlaw]

Must need an alignment

 

[Horde_R35]

Nice video TA! Not bad at all... but thats my reality here in Portugal! Im used to it!

 

[Eric.]

The RPM metter goes to 8000rpm and revs till 8300. Didnt find stock EP3 races, but i found a friends video with suspension, ECU, air intake, complete exaust line with exhaust manifold (smaller milimeters for stock engines). Do you want me to send you the link by PM?

So your highly modified K20 doesn't rev any higher than my stock K20?

 

[Horde_R35]

So your highly modified K20 doesn't rev any higher than my stock K20?

Was talking about the Stock engine... Dont know why i have to repeat myself hundreds of times! My engine limits at 9300 RPMs.

 

[Eric.]

Because you didn't say you were talking about a stock motor.

 

[Duke]

Because you didn't say you were talking about a stock motor.

And just to be clear, he is saying that his motor is internally stock, just that he's had the ECU reflashed to set the rev limiter at 9300. Which is part of my problem with the story. Reflashing the ECU does not magically make the engine tolerate serious overrevs.

 

[Horde_R35]

Who wants to see how we do things around here, pease PM me!

 

[Eric.]

After doing a little research on my own, what kind of throttle body are you using (what size, also) and what header?