4 wheel steering?

  • Thread starter Thread starter TheToad263
  • 29 comments
  • 16,228 views
T

TheToad263

(Banned)
Messages
204
Messages
TheToad263
Do any of the cars in the game have 4 wheel steering? and if so, is there a noticeable difference in how the car takes corners?
 
Well, the Skyline GT-Rs should come with Nissan's HICAS four wheel steering system, never noticed any difference between them and any other AWD car, though.
 
This is a very good question. I know the 96 Prelude is supposed to have 4WS depending on the model but whether it has it or not I'm not sure. I don't know that it would make all that much difference. I believe Honda stated that one of their 4WS Preludes ( might have been the 80's shape ) returned lap times almost identical to a non 4WS Prelude. Its more for reducing the turning circle at low speeds and then at high speeds all the wheels turn in the same direction for smooth lane changes at high speed. The Nissan system only works at high speed ( over 120km If I remember correctly ) which I remember thinking was stupid since you would never get to use it unless you broke the speed limit by 20km. That being said the Skylines are super stable at high speed so I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the game.
Another interesting tech point was the active yaw control (ATTS) that was available for the 96 Prelude type S is present in the game. If you check out the specs on the standard diff you will see some crazy figures. I was hell bent on making this trick diff work but with over 400hp it was just to open. Fitment of the custom diff gave better results without even trying. Oh well!

If you are lucky you might spot the back wheels turning on a replay ( though the movement will only be small, you will be looking for a change in the gap between the wheel and the arch ) and as for the Prelude ( 93 model ) you should be able to see the rear wheels turn in the opposite direction to the front even at a standstill. I know this because I have owned one and done it before in real life. The movement on this one should be easily visible ( to someone with a view of it ) as it moves quite a bit.
 
One of the better known cars for 4WS is the Mitsubishi 3000GT. In real life, you can actually see the wheels turning (maximun 1.5°). This enhances low- and highspeed turning stability. You can experience this, when going around a corner with your foot on the gas. Since it´s also AWD, it actually feels like on rails. This is, because the 3000GT is one damn heavy car, but still corners like it was 400kg lighter. If they would have make it RWD and without 4WS it would have been 400kg lighter and drive "almost" the same. But than it woul not be the best Mitsubishi has to offer in the 90ies.

The first ever car with 4WS was indeed an Honda Prelude (i think 1988?) Other cars are Skyline, 300ZX and nowadays some BMW 7 Series, if I remember correctly.

I don´t know if any of this stuff is simulated in the game. The 3000GT doesn´t feel like it (I can compare, since i have one)
 
I've never seen it, but then I've not explicitly "looked" for it in GT5. The low-speed physics in GT5 are so screwy that I doubt it'd really work as intended. I mean doing a brake stand in an FR and turning the steering wheel left causes the car to slide perfectly sideways to the right...

I believe the handling of the four-wheel steering on the Prelude was so idiosyncratic, especially the change from high-speed to low-speed that Honda got rid of it. It supposedly felt weird or unsettling, or possibly even dangerous, from a driver-input perspective. Imagine taking a high speed corner to have the car crawl to the apex instead of rotate towards it :scared:

Newer systems may have a better idea of "driver intention", and so may well have a tangible performance benefit without imposing on the driving feel. But it's probably telling that the R35 GTR no longer uses four-wheel-steering, and instead makes better use of the "torque vectoring" differentials.

I don't think GT5 models these diffs, either.
 
Theres a FF 4 wheel steering car, the '89 Toyota Carina ED 2.0 X 4WS, look for it in the Used lot.

Haven't tried it out yet but I did buy it because of the 4 wheel streering.
 
I was always wonder if the real world effects of various stability systems, 4 wheel steering etc. were symulatied in this game, like the gtr r34 systems.
 
PhillGuy
I was always wonder if the real world effects of various stability systems, 4 wheel steering etc. were symulatied in this game, like the gtr r34 systems.
Click to expand...

The Evos all have their AYC in the tuning menu that you can fiddle with. I can't say how real it feels, but it certainly makes a difference in the game.
 
STiG39
One of the better known cars for 4WS is the Mitsubishi 3000GT. In real life, you can actually see the wheels turning (maximun 1.5°). This enhances low- and highspeed turning stability. You can experience this, when going around a corner with your foot on the gas. Since it´s also AWD, it actually feels like on rails. This is, because the 3000GT is one damn heavy car, but still corners like it was 400kg lighter. If they would have make it RWD and without 4WS it would have been 400kg lighter and drive "almost" the same. But than it woul not be the best Mitsubishi has to offer in the 90ies.

The first ever car with 4WS was indeed an Honda Prelude (i think 1988?) Other cars are Skyline, 300ZX and nowadays some BMW 7 Series, if I remember correctly.

I don´t know if any of this stuff is simulated in the game. The 3000GT doesn´t feel like it (I can compare, since i have one)
Click to expand...

Doesn't the 3000GT just use AYC?
 
Griffith500
I've never seen it, but then I've not explicitly "looked" for it in GT5. The low-speed physics in GT5 are so screwy that I doubt it'd really work as intended. I mean doing a brake stand in an FR and turning the steering wheel left causes the car to slide perfectly sideways to the right...

I believe the handling of the four-wheel steering on the Prelude was so idiosyncratic, especially the change from high-speed to low-speed that Honda got rid of it. It supposedly felt weird or unsettling, or possibly even dangerous, from a driver-input perspective. Imagine taking a high speed corner to have the car crawl to the apex instead of rotate towards it :scared:

Newer systems may have a better idea of "driver intention", and so may well have a tangible performance benefit without imposing on the driving feel. But it's probably telling that the R35 GTR no longer uses four-wheel-steering, and instead makes better use of the "torque vectoring" differentials.

I don't think GT5 models these diffs, either.
Click to expand...

I don't think its quite like you said in regards to the Prelude, At least not the 91 shape. There was no change over point so to speak of. The wheels turning in opposite directions occurred at under 30km/h and when the wheels turned the same way it was at over 80km/h. So any speed in between the wheels operated like a normal car. From personal experience I can vouch for some operations that took a bit of getting used to though. Like parking perpendicular, the car would end up parked in a "overturned" position.
One time I scrapped a parked car reversing out my driveway because it turned so tightly, lol. I was like jeez, don't underestimate the low speed maneuverability!
All in all it added weight to the car and was ultimately a product of 80's excess as is why its been phased out on most cars.
The 91-96 Prelude had a separate ECU for the 4WS and it was about twice as big as the engine CPU. It was mounted behind the rear seats and took up a whole side.
None of these 4WD systems will lower lap times though. The best they will do is stop the back end stepping out on your Skyline at high speed.

When it comes to the race track you might be on to something though. Corners that are to be taken at over 100km may well induce a crab like result when trying to clip the apex.
Another thing that just came to me was if you do alot of driving at around the speed that it wants to operate then you might experience inconsistent handling if thats what you mean? I've not noticed it myself as in NZ you are normally doing 100km/h or 50km/h not alot of 80km/h roads so most the time you are well within the 4WS's operational or non-operational zone.
 
Ghost Rydor
I don't think its quite like you said in regards to the Prelude, At least not the 91 shape. There was no change over point so to speak of. The wheels turning in opposite directions occurred at under 30km/h and when the wheels turned the same way it was at over 80km/h. So any speed in between the wheels operated like a normal car. From personal experience I can vouch for some operations that took a bit of getting used to though. Like parking perpendicular, the car would end up parked in a "overturned" position.
One time I scrapped a parked car reversing out my driveway because it turned so tightly, lol. I was like jeez, don't underestimate the low speed maneuverability!
All in all it added weight to the car and was ultimately a product of 80's excess as is why its been phased out on most cars.
The 91-96 Prelude had a separate ECU for the 4WS and it was about twice as big as the engine CPU. It was mounted behind the rear seats and took up a whole side.
None of these 4WD systems will lower lap times though. The best they will do is stop the back end stepping out on your Skyline at high speed.

When it comes to the race track you might be on to something though. Corners that are to be taken at over 100km may well induce a crab like result when trying to clip the apex.
Another thing that just came to me was if you do alot of driving at around the speed that it wants to operate then you might experience inconsistent handling if thats what you mean? I've not noticed it myself as in NZ you are normally doing 100km/h or 50km/h not alot of 80km/h roads so most the time you are well within the 4WS's operational or non-operational zone.
Click to expand...

Yes, this was the sort of thing I remember reading somewhere. In the UK, the upper speed limit is variably 60 and 70 mph, with 60 on (usually twisty) rural roads and 70 on the motorways. Obviously, on the twisties, you're going to be transitioning the 80 km/hr boundary quite often, especially if you're driving in a spirited manner! This assumes the crossover speeds are the same on UK models, but there are plenty of imports floating about, too.

I also read that the system was sensitive to the speed of steering input, adding extra complexity - though this might be to prevent crabbing in high-speed turns. This applies to the 4th gen, of course. Interestingly, the 3rd gen had a fully mechanical system that was only dependent on steering angle - that would definitely feel weird!

You're probably right that Honda dropped it for the 5th gen because of weight and complexity / cost, rather than feel; they used a torque-vectoring differential (ATTS) in the top trim-level instead.
I see four-wheel steering is available on a few other cars now, notably the F10 / F11 BMW 5-series.
 
Doesn't the 3000GT just use AYC?
Click to expand...

Kind of Both. But it actually has Active 4 Wheel Steering. It also has Electronic Controlled Suspension, making it softer or harder.

None of that is actually simulated in GT5. The 3000GT stiffens the Dampers at high speed or on bumby roads automatically. Not in the game. You can also switch manually from TOUR (Soft) to SPORT(Hard). Also not in the game. The effect of 4WS is a very stable car, for example when shifting a lane on the Autobahn (:sly:). The car does not wobble but keeps the nose pointed forward and the car feels stiff while doing this.

In GT5, if you do this kind of thing at highspeed, the car actually lifts and wobbles a little bit. It just doesn´t feel like the real thing. But its standard so may be there is a difference between standard and premium also.
 
freedomweasel
The Evos all have their AYC in the tuning menu that you can fiddle with. I can't say how real it feels, but it certainly makes a difference in the game.
Click to expand...

AYC isn't four wheel steering, it's a computer controlled diff effect which basically makes the car turn like a tank (you know how they have the caterpillar tracks which move in opposite directions to steer?) while turning like a normal car, which is comparable to 4WS but not the same.

Personally, I was shocked by the Prelude Spec S, it feels so agile for a front wheel drive car, and the Skyline GT-R (does the R35 have 4WS?) also feels surprisingly light on it's feet for such a heavy AWD car with a big engine in the front, almost comparable to an Evo or Impreza without the AYC (if Imprezas can even have AYC, that is). I think if you know it's there, you will appreciate what it does, but that might also be a placebo effect.
 
neema_t
AYC isn't four wheel steering, it's a computer controlled diff effect which basically makes the car turn like a tank (you know how they have the caterpillar tracks which move in opposite directions to steer?) while turning like a normal car, which is comparable to 4WS but not the same.

Personally, I was shocked by the Prelude Spec S, it feels so agile for a front wheel drive car, and the Skyline GT-R (does the R35 have 4WS?) also feels surprisingly light on it's feet for such a heavy AWD car with a big engine in the front, almost comparable to an Evo or Impreza without the AYC (if Imprezas can even have AYC, that is). I think if you know it's there, you will appreciate what it does, but that might also be a placebo effect.
Click to expand...

The R35 GTR uses torque-vectoring differentials, just like the Evo.
The Prelude (Spec / Type) S(H) has "ATTS", i.e. a torque-vectoring diff.
The SiR Spec-S has the LSD only.
None of these cars have four-wheel-steering. :)

I'm not convinced these special differentials are modeled (outside of the ordinary "LSD") in GT5, but I should play with a few more cars first.
 
Ok let me start with the Mitsi GTO (3000GT elsewhere) that car is loaded with gadgets and you forgot to mention the front and rear spoilers deploy automatically!, bit like a Veyron, I doubt however being a standard car that its modeled though. I know a Veyron is standard too but It might look a bit off it they didn't do it there. The GTO's spoiler movement isnt quite as dramatic so I dont think they bothered.

Back on topic, I'm pretty certain the Prelude Type S does have the ATTS modeled, why? Buy a custom diff, fit it then return to settings and now you can see the specs on the standard diff. You will notice the specs on it are unlike any other car ( I've seen ). The figures are 35/0/0. Now go back to the custom diff and try to match the specs. You can't. The closest you can get is 35/5/5!

Now consider this. ATTS is just Hondas way of saying AYC. In the driving options you can turn on AYC for any car. Now I normally run my lobbies with AYC not being allowed. That being the case would a car that actually has AYC still have AYC?
I don't know that any old car should be allowed AYC being that it requires a heavier electronic diff. You should not be able to just tick a AYC box without suffering the appropriate penalties. Not to mention its simply not possible to have AYC on any and every car. TC yes that can be CPU controlled AYC no, it requires new mechanics.

I'm pretty sure many of the Ferraris have electronic diff trickery as well if you read their descriptions. Ever wondered why they handle so flawlessly? I think they got a few tricks up their sleeves most cars ( if not all ) don't.

PS. You can mimic the effect of 4WS to some degree by having Toe out on the front and rear. Especially the rear, it stops the rear being dragged in a straight line and it tends to make the back swing out a bit more meaning the front of your car now ends up facing the way you want sooner.
 
My dad owned a 300zx and it had 4 wheel steering. idk how the car handles in the game because i've been to lazy to buy the 300zx. ill buy it tomorow
 
Now that update 1.07 has taken out the trash and optometrists maybe we won't have to sift through 30 pages of threads that are mostly people showboating an obscure single thought they had, which was so important it needed its whole own thread.

"I have 100 cars to go everyone look at me". I look forward to the 6 million other owners of GT5 who may feel the need to open a new thread every time they pass a race or buy a car.

Anyway after 30 pages of looking I found this thread again. No prob for me but most people don't have time to look through 30 pages of kiddie talk before they hit any real substance. They will tune in, see page after page of one sentence go no where threads and think, "what a load of bollocks, nothing to see here".

Ranting aside I decided to investigate the 4WS phenomenon myself. I took two 4WS cars ( Celica GT-Four RC ST185 '91 and the Prelude Si VTEC '91 ) into two player split screen loaded up a race set each car to bumper view and drove up to the rear wheel of each car and turned said cars steering wheels from lock to lock.

I can report that there is no change in toe on the rear wheels of these cars. The Celica I can't confirm but as I have mentioned earlier the Preludes rear wheels should visibly turn at a standstill.
Now that's not to say that they don't have active working 4WS in the game but it does confirm that it is not animated which is entirely understandable being that plenty of other things in game are simulated but not necessarily visually present.

Proving the existence of 4WS in the game may be impossible unless we have two identical cars one with 4WS and one without and a manufacturers claim that one is faster round a track or the ability to accurately judge turning circles between variants.
 
STiG39
One of the better known cars for 4WS is the Mitsubishi 3000GT. In real life, you can actually see the wheels turning (maximun 1.5°). This enhances low- and highspeed turning stability. You can experience this, when going around a corner with your foot on the gas. Since it´s also AWD, it actually feels like on rails. This is, because the 3000GT is one damn heavy car, but still corners like it was 400kg lighter. If they would have make it RWD and without 4WS it would have been 400kg lighter and drive "almost" the same. But than it woul not be the best Mitsubishi has to offer in the 90ies.

The first ever car with 4WS was indeed an Honda Prelude (i think 1988?) Other cars are Skyline, 300ZX and nowadays some BMW 7 Series, if I remember correctly.

I don´t know if any of this stuff is simulated in the game. The 3000GT doesn´t feel like it (I can compare, since i have one)
Click to expand...

I'll second that "on rails" description for the 3000GT. I've had high performance vehicles of one sort or another for the 25+ years that I've been driving and racing. NOTHING I've ever driven/ridden has felt as planted during a high speed turn as my buddies 3000GT. First time I got a chance to drive it, we're buzzing down the highway doing about 100-105 and nearing our offramp. I start to lift off when my buddy says, "Nah, it'll be fine." I accelerated down the ramp, hitting an easy 120 by the bottom. I've owned and driven plenty of cars that coulda made the ramp at that speed, but none of them would have done it so nonchalantly. And certainly not given me the confidence to have the throttle on the floor through the turn.

Man I loved that car. Idiot sold it for a Mustang GT like I had at the time. We shoulda just traded. :) It's still pretty high on the list of cars I plan to own at some point.
 

Similar threads

F
logitech g pro wheel rotation
Replies
2
Views
3K
AliAlllen
AliAlllen
O
Xbox gamepad understeer
Replies
1
Views
3K
c0neofsilence
C
C
Change Steering Wheel
Replies
0
Views
1K
c_romosios
C
TSXChef
Fanatec updated CSL Steering Wheel GT3 (previous McLaren V2)
Replies
3
Views
290
TSXChef
TSXChef
fredoz
GT3 Steering Wheel Information
Replies
7
Views
952
i386
I

Latest Posts

Back