86th Running Of The 24 Hours Of Le Mans, 16-17 June 2018

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10,992
United Kingdom
West Yorkshire
Tired_Tyres
#26 LMP2 winner and #28 TDS sister car excluded for refueling restricter infringement. #36 now provisional winner.

It's on Sportscar365.
 

Grandi

Premium
263
Finland
Helsinki
GTP_Grandi / kakeskin
Finishing the 24 hours of Le Mans is always going to be a massive accolade but, as much as I admire Toyota for their persistence, it is a slightly hollow victory. I was hoping they might push to try and do something to really define their win (i.e. beat the distance record), but they were just heading for the flag.

As the distance record depends on the frequency of safety cars and slow zones, not a whole lot they could do. Fastest 100 laps of #8 (averaging 3.20.xxx) were the fastest in (at least recent) LM history.
 
584
United States
United States
If Porsche, Audi or Peugeot didn't want Toyota to win they should have entered the race and tried to beat them.

Toyota had a win at Le Mans. Yes, the 919 rolled past the flag before the Toyota did, but as far as I'm concerned, that was Toyota's Le Mans. But to finish first, first you have to finish. That's the name of the game. I spoke to Wolfgang about it and even he told me the victory was bitter sweet.

This year, however, it's different. It was the perfect race for Alonso to take part in as it's good PR for both parties. I'm excited to see what will happen with Porsche's Formula-E program. Lots of talent to draw from for sure.

But it was a good year for Le Mans this year, apart from the odd stint regulations we had to abide by. I wasn't a fan of it at all, neither was the rest of the team or anyone else I spoke to. The battle between the RSR and the GT would have been way different if the FIA didn't implement those silly stint regs on us - but those teams suffered most, for sure.
 
6,735
Portugal
Lisboa
GTP_Hun
Did you know that Kobayashi refused to take the podium in Spa as the team would not allow his car to win? Alonso is world class, no argument there, but you don't take two and a half minutes out of an identical car with no weak link in it other than Lopez (who I don't personally think is good enough) unless there is an amateur in the car. This was set up for Alonso to win from the start. You don't agree I know, but that's that as far as I'm concerned. It's not a slight on Alonso, he is almost as good as he thinks he is.

I didn't follow the Spa WEC race at the time so I don't know what happened there (assuming it was a team orders situation? I don't like that).

Regardless, I don't think Lopez was being slow, it was Alonso being fast. And being fast lap after lap, for almost 3 hours. And during the night.

I have seen, in the past, some amazing night drives of recoveries that would take hours (Tom Kristensen was famous for one of them, can't recall the year), and this one is right up there with those.



Yeah, it was an impressive drive and it needed an experienced driver to pull it off, but it wasn't a pressured performance, was it? The only competition was from his team mate. Versus some of the drives in recent years where you had the lead pack separated by a handful of seconds and chasing each other through the night. A good performance? Yes. A classic? Not even close.

I don't know if you are implying that fighting the teams other car is not as impressive as fighting another team. But if you are, I will both agree and disagree.

I agree with you because for the spectacle and us fans, to see a Toyota battle a Porsche, or a Peugeot battle a Audi, or (insert two makers here) do battle is always more nail biting.

But I disagree, because to fight the other car from your own team at Le Mans is, if you are trying to catch up, very risky business. Come the morning. odds are the team owner orders a cease fire and a procession to the end. So, Alonso's magnificente effort was a "do or die" one. If by morning the cars were still far apart, the #8 team risked being given orders. Quite understandably, Toyota wouldn't want the cars being pushed hard to the end, risking a double failure (Peugeot style, when all their cars plus the Oreca one burst into flames trying to catch the leading Audi).


PS - About how Alonso compares with all other TOYOTA drivers, and how Lopez had similar pace to them all (but Alonso), here's a graph I saw in the Autosport forums. The best 100 laps each of them made. Guess who the blue line represents? And check how Lopez compares with Nakajima.



Df-qZkyX4AAaZ3v.jpg



PPS - I can't vouch for the accuracy of this graph, so please keep that grain of salt in your mind about what it shows ...
 
1,409
Toyota had a win at Le Mans. Yes, the 919 rolled past the flag before the Toyota did, but as far as I'm concerned, that was Toyota's Le Mans. But to finish first, first you have to finish. That's the name of the game. I spoke to Wolfgang about it and even he told me the victory was bitter sweet.

This year, however, it's different. It was the perfect race for Alonso to take part in as it's good PR for both parties. I'm excited to see what will happen with Porsche's Formula-E program. Lots of talent to draw from for sure.

But it was a good year for Le Mans this year, apart from the odd stint regulations we had to abide by. I wasn't a fan of it at all, neither was the rest of the team or anyone else I spoke to. The battle between the RSR and the GT would have been way different if the FIA didn't implement those silly stint regs on us - but those teams suffered most, for sure.

Le mans is the ultimate you got to finish to win race.. One race over 24 hours 364 days before you can try again..

Could you maybe explain the stint/bop a bit more. I was out of the loop and though I watched the game I never really understood what the problem was. Just that there was a problem :-)
 
10,992
United Kingdom
West Yorkshire
Tired_Tyres
I didn't follow the Spa WEC race at the time so I don't know what happened there (assuming it was a team orders situation? I don't like that).

Regardless, I don't think Lopez was being slow, it was Alonso being fast. And being fast lap after lap, for almost 3 hours. And during the night.

I have seen, in the past, some amazing night drives of recoveries that would take hours (Tom Kristensen was famous for one of them, can't recall the year), and this one is right up there with those.
Yes it was a great fight back but don't forget, a leader is going to be conservative in traffic but the chaser is taking more risks so it always looks better than it really is.


By the way, for anyone who subscribes to the WEC stream, the full race is available in one hour videos to watch again.
 
1,970
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Looks like the #67 Ford got hit with a post-race penalty due to a drive-time infraction: turns out Kanaan only did 5 hours 16 minutes behind the wheel instead of the 6-hour minimum. The result was an addition of 11 laps plus 1:23.499 that drops them to a 12th place class finish.

Its sister, #69, got 2 laps plus 1:42 added due to Dixon also not doing the minimum drive time, though the car is still classified 14th in GTE Pro.

The #5 Ginetta got penalised too: it had 6 laps deleted plus 2:45 added courtesy of Roussel not doing more than 6 hours. It therefore ends up classified 43rd and last behind the #86 Gulf Racing Porsche.

The #28 TDS Racing Oreca was also penalised: Perrodo had exceeded the 4-hour maximum drive time in a consecutive 6-hour period by four minutes, therefore 1 lap plus 1:18 was added. The car is still classified 4th in LMP2, because its overall race time was 6.113 seconds less than the fifth-placed #32 United Autosports Ligier.

The penalties were worked out by taking what time was "missing" from the drivers stints, and then converting them into laps.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/no-67-ford-penalized-for-drive-time-infraction/
http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/08_2018/02_LE MANS/231_FIA WEC/201806161500_Race/Hour 24/05_Classification_Race_Hour 24.PDF
 
882
Greece
Athens
Willful-Underdog
Looks like the #67 Ford got hit with a post-race penalty due to a drive-time infraction: turns out Kanaan only did 5 hours 16 minutes behind the wheel instead of the 6-hour minimum. The result was an addition of 11 laps plus 1:23.499 that drops them to a 12th place class finish.

Its sister, #69, got 2 laps plus 1:42 added due to Dixon also not doing the minimum drive time, though the car is still classified 14th in GTE Pro.

The #5 Ginetta got penalised too: it had 6 laps deleted plus 2:45 added courtesy of Roussel not doing more than 6 hours. It therefore ends up classified 43rd and last behind the #86 Gulf Racing Porsche.

The #28 TDS Racing Oreca was also penalised: Perrodo had exceeded the 4-hour maximum drive time in a consecutive 6-hour period by four minutes, therefore 1 lap plus 1:18 was added. The car is still classified 4th in LMP2, because its overall race time was 6.113 seconds less than the fifth-placed #32 United Autosports Ligier.

The penalties were worked out by taking what time was "missing" from the drivers stints, and then converting them into laps.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/no-67-ford-penalized-for-drive-time-infraction/
http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/08_2018/02_LE MANS/231_FIA WEC/201806161500_Race/Hour 24/05_Classification_Race_Hour 24.PDF
I've never seen such post-race shenanigans in an event's classification, for real. :eek: :boggled:
 
10,992
United Kingdom
West Yorkshire
Tired_Tyres
I've never seen such post-race shenanigans in an event's classification, for real. :eek: :boggled:
It's pointless silly penalties for the Pro cars. What does it matter if a driver doesn't do 6 hours apart from not at all? This regulation should be to ensure the AM driver does a proper minimum amount of driving so all the time isn't taken up by the Pro's in the car.
 

Furinkazen

Madman
Premium
44,132
United Kingdom
Blackburn
Furi_54
It's pointless silly penalties for the Pro cars. What does it matter if a driver doesn't do 6 hours apart from not at all? This regulation should be to ensure the AM driver does a proper minimum amount of driving so all the time isn't taken up by the Pro's in the car.

3x6 =18. If you can't get all drivers in with 6 hours to spare that's pretty poor management by the team.
 
479
England
Hereford
Fellix79
I watched most of the race via the Eurosport stream via Amazon. I got to agree the BoP ******** in the GT class needs to be altered or removed. I wanted to see AMR do well, after the brilliant finish to the 2017 race, but knew it was unlikely. (BoP favoured them back then).

Is it me, but does the new rules for the 2020 season sound very similar to the old GT1 class of the late 90's? I'm not a fan of the hybrid tech part that much as it add weight and cost, yet offers little to the spectacle or filters down into normal road cars. Also what I do hope F1 learns, is that allowing different engine types and configs to race, allows for more racing and progression than this stupid engine formula that they have been doing since 2008/9
 
1,970
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
I also presume stint time includes time in the pits?

According to dailysportscar.com, the #69 penalty took into account the fact the car had spent almost 2 hours in the pits in the closing stages of the race.

So I would say yes, stint time includes pit time.
 
1,483
United States
US
True but then again a driver can do 14 hours in total. Doesn't exactly leave two others 6 hours each though.

Perhaps to allow for extra drive time in case one of the drivers becomes sick or injured? I don't quite understand how one car is penalized 11 laps and the other 2 for the same infraction, unless it is a formula based on how short of the minimum they were. Still, it's a simple enough rule and the team had no excuse for not taking care of it.

What really bugs me is the lap limits per stint. Who really thought that was a good idea for an endurance race!? Why not also set rules for how many stints you can run a single set of tires, or require all driver changes to occur on a set cycle of stints? Sounds silly? Yeah, exactly.

You should be rewarded for pushing your equipment and getting extra distance out of a stint. I sincerely hope this rule is done away with before next year.

As for the 911 vs GT blocking, I missed it but hopefully can catch a replay. I like what they do in IMSA (and most race series?) where you can make one move to defend, and then that's your line. Making it a block-fest is unprofessional and just plain dangerous. Still, it seems the rulebook was bent/ignored multiple times. The #8 spinning it's wheels while in the air in its pits? I'm not sure if that is actually in the rulebook, but the commentators seemed to think so and I agree on safety grounds.

Overall I enjoyed the race especially the Pink Pig! Hears hoping for a better top tier once GTP rolls around in 2020. Either way, I love the GT racing so don't mess that up!
 
2,732
Morgoth_666
First half of the race they were called on track limits a lot. Wouldn't call it lenient at all, memory tells me they were given the most. I could be thinking of the Am Porsches but I'm pretty sure the Pink Pig was called out twice?

Yeah you are right they did start to warn some of them eventually. When I posted that I mostly was remembering the first couple hours when everyone I was watching with as well as the people on TV were wondering if they would ever do anything about it because so many cars were all over the place. But after that went on for an hour or two there was a rash of warnings. I think they did clean it up a little bit after that or at least I stopped noticing it. :)

Related... this is actually a kinda cool thing: http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/noticeBoard.html
2 penalties for track limits levied, to Tracy Krohn and one of the #88 Dempsey drivers. I only noticed one of those fan favorite wheelspin penalties, I thought there were a couple more unless I skimmed through too fast.




UNRELATED EDIT: I was trying to keep an eye on the times when the 8 was chasing down the 7, and whether the gap was closing or expanding it was pretty exclusively down to the pace of the 8(other than one lap Alonso gained 10 seconds on Lopez, I think slow zones and pit stops may have been involved).

The drivers in the 7 car did not appear to be holding back, they rarely went slower than :23s. I saw more :25s from the 8 than I did the 7, but also a lot more :19s and :20s, particularly when Alonso was driving. When Nakajima caught up and then dropped back by 15 or 20 seconds it was again because he had slowed, not because the 7 car had sped up. Just for a bit of reference.


Did they have the stint-length limits last year? I know they've been using them at times in GT3 racing for a couple of years now. I don't remember it happening for Le Mans specifically though. There always seems to be some sort of regulations that make it effectively impossible for the privateers to keep up at LM even with a perfect race, but it's less noticeable when there are more manufacturer teams battling it out.
 
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Belgium
Bornem
What did they, G-Drive, try to achieve? To win a few seconds that they didn't need. I think they won't come back on this dicision and Alpine is the winner!
 
10,992
United Kingdom
West Yorkshire
Tired_Tyres
What did they, G-Drive, try to achieve? To win a few seconds that they didn't need. I think they won't come back on this dicision and Alpine is the winner!
Speeding up refueling to save time? Mistake maybe? Or an ELMS part that isn't in the WEC regs. Something like that. Either way they are not in the WEC series anyway so they've nothing to lose.
 
7,636
Denmark
Denmark
After having slept on the race, it was not a good Le Mans this year. I never like BoP and its impact never seemed more obvious than it did this time in GTE Pro. No doubt the racing was good in the class but it just feels artificial and soulless when rather different cars perform so equally. This year we also had the fuel stint rules to disrupt an otherwise interesting strategic element.

Toyota finally came out on top, but it's an empty feeling when there was no equal contender. Their objective was to avoid the own goal, and they did. Reassuring but hardly a massive achievement against themselves. Sadly, it also overshadows the driver efforts of the winning car. Primary focus was on the winning drivers during the years where Audi repeatedly won against themselves in the early 2000s. Back then it was more like "Tom Kristensen won again" rather than Audi won. I'd say Nakajima deserves better than Toyota and Alonso stealing the headlines this year.

Bring on the 2020 regulations. The current era is overdue for retirement.
 
584
United States
United States
Le mans is the ultimate you got to finish to win race.. One race over 24 hours 364 days before you can try again..Could you maybe explain the stint/bop a bit more. I was out of the loop and though I watched the game I never really understood what the problem was. Just that there was a problem :-)

Le Mans is a fantastic race because of its heritage and the high-caliber of drivers it invites, but this has changed a lot throughout the years. The atmosphere at other races, let's say the Nur24h, is way different. In my personal opinion, having competed in both with private teams, the Nur24h is much more of a traditional endurance race than Le Mans, which has been altered a lot under regulations.

One of the ridiculous rules they had this year was limiting the stints of GT cars to 14 laps per stint, with the first lap being 11 and your last being 13. This is such a terrible rule as it artificially generates a race and robs teams of viable strategies. It's a very limiting factor and just neuters a vital aspect of endurance racing. I hope they amend this rule for the second going of Le Mans later in the Super Season.
 
221
Germany
Germany
Perhaps to allow for extra drive time in case one of the drivers becomes sick or injured? I don't quite understand how one car is penalized 11 laps and the other 2 for the same infraction, unless it is a formula based on how short of the minimum they were. Still, it's a simple enough rule and the team had no excuse for not taking care of it.

What really bugs me is the lap limits per stint. Who really thought that was a good idea for an endurance race!? Why not also set rules for how many stints you can run a single set of tires, or require all driver changes to occur on a set cycle of stints? Sounds silly? Yeah, exactly.

You should be rewarded for pushing your equipment and getting extra distance out of a stint. I sincerely hope this rule is done away with before next year.

I share your opinion. If anything, especially Le Mans should reward energy efficiency instead of punishing it (As they have done in the past, the Index of energy efficiency was way, way beyond contemporary regulations (or rather lack of) in its day and was a long part of le mans). Distance equals speed over time, simple as that. Those were the original outlines of the spirit of the race. Go as fast and as long as you can.
 
45
Germany
Germany
zuqbu
A Russian team cheated? I am shocked...SHOCKED I tell you that a Russian would cheat at any form of sporting event. It'd be like taking PEDs for curling....oh wait.
Even more shocking that it was the honorable G-Drive/Rusinov team who was never caught before* for doing anything like that**.







* Except in 2013 when they where disqualified.
** For manipulating the fuel tank.
 
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