97 Percent of Keyless Entry and Start Systems are Vulnerable to Attack

[Moglet]

So basically, what I am reading is that totally keyless cars are the problem I thought they were going to be many years ago when the idea was introduced? lol :-)

I get why these things exist. It is all for comfort or convenience. To me, my safety is having a car with a key that goes into an ignition, even if it has a push button start. Even if stealing a car the old way is just as easy the new way. I would hate to be stranded because my fob lost battery and my car wont start because of it. A key is simple and works and never fails unless you break it off in the ignition(happened in my 95 miata). So I have to ask the question. Why get rid of the thing that works?

Because there are generally backups for if the keyless method fails. You get the best of both worlds. The one in my Hyundai, for example, can be entered with a hidden physical key and started by pressing the dead/low battery fob against the start/stop button. Like this:

 

[Wolfe]

It's good if you can pop a key out, unlock the doors via hidden key locks, and start the car from a hidden key ignition...but then why does it all have to be hidden? Why not just add keyless entry and start functionality to a regular old fob with a regular old (switchblade) key? Just because it's not as impressive as, "look, a car without a key! Welcome to the FUTURE!!"...? That kinda makes the whole thing dumber than it already seemed before.

Cars are increasingly becoming like getting a new laptop with unwanted junk to be uninstalled, or disabled/bypassed in the registry or Windows services or whatever. I'm sure my next car will require more "hacking" than I did for this one.

 

[Moby45]

Are we talking about keyless entry or keyless ignition? There are a few reasons why it exists...

1) So that you don't have to dig around in your pocket or purse, especially helpful if you have your hands full.
2) So that you don't accidentally try to start a very quiet vehicle that is already on, or a vehicle which shuts the engine off until it is needed.

Those reasons comply with my point of it being more of a convenience and comfort. Not that they are absolutely needed.

1) if your hands are full. Empty them
2) do your 5 point check that the drivers ed book teaches you before driving your car. The VW I had as a rental car had a key for the ignition and it also had the engine start/stop system on it.

 

[Shaun]

I'm sure my next car will require more "hacking" than I did for this one.

Maybe, maybe not. You previously mentioned disabling daytime running lights by pulling a fuse, connector etc. Those can be turned of in our car via the infotainment system.

Purely out of interest what's your issue with daytime running lights?

 

[Danoff]

Those reasons comply with my point of it being more of a convenience and comfort. Not that they are absolutely needed.

1) if your hands are full. Empty them
2) do your 5 point check that the drivers ed book teaches you before driving your car. The VW I had as a rental car had a key for the ignition and it also had the engine start/stop system on it.

Well we know they're not absolutely needed. I mean... cars existed before this. I can kinda see how it happened with hybrids though. You turn the key and, well... it just turns on. Is it on? Did I turn it far enough? So it just goes to that position and stops then? Ok, so then why isn't it just a button?

It does seem like a natural evolution, but "needed" is not something that seems to apply to almost anything in cars these days.

 

[Moglet]

It's good if you can pop a key out, unlock the doors via hidden key locks, and start the car from a hidden key ignition...but then why does it all have to be hidden? Why not just add keyless entry and start functionality to a regular old fob with a regular old (switchblade) key? Just because it's not as impressive as, "look, a car without a key! Welcome to the FUTURE!!"...? That kinda makes the whole thing dumber than it already seemed before.

Cars are increasingly becoming like getting a new laptop with unwanted junk to be uninstalled, or disabled/bypassed in the registry or Windows services or whatever. I'm sure my next car will require more "hacking" than I did for this one.

It's not far off a "switchblade" key, but then what exactly would I do with the key turn when the car is a hybrid? Turn it and watch a light on the dash come on? Seems pointless, just make it a button. Which they have.

 

[Wolfe]

Maybe, maybe not. You previously mentioned disabling daytime running lights by pulling a fuse, connector etc. Those can be turned of in our car via the infotainment system.

Good point.

Purely out of interest what's your issue with daytime running lights?

Seems pointless when it won't illuminate the taillights, which makes me want to turn on the headlights anyway when the situation calls for it (or when required by Wisconsin law on a wet day). I stumbled into the LegactGT.com thread on how easy it is to locate the connector, and decided I'd appreciate the autonomy and extending the lifespan of the low-beam bulbs a bit.

The worse thing about DRLs is how it tricks people into thinking their headlights are on. Inadequate and counterproductive.

It's not far off a "switchblade" key, but then what exactly would I do with the key turn when the car is a hybrid? Turn it and watch a light on the dash come on? Seems pointless, just make it a button. Which they have.

The point is to lock the ignition, the same reason a keyless system must detect a signal from the fob. It would be no different from a motorcycle in that case.

 

[FPV MIC]

Seems pointless when it won't illuminate the taillights, which makes me want to turn on the headlights anyway when the situation calls for it (or when required by Wisconsin law on a wet day). I stumbled into the LegactGT.com thread on how easy it is to locate the connector, and decided I'd appreciate the autonomy and extending the lifespan of the low-beam bulbs a bit.

The worse thing about DRLs is how it tricks people into thinking their headlights are on. Inadequate and counterproductive.

Here in Australia it's far safer on the open road to have your running lights on during the daytime so oncoming traffic can see you before they try to overtake slower vehicles, especially when you've got grey/silver/black cars like I tend to have. I learnt this through experience... it was a very close call , flashing my high beam saved us. There's no real need for the rears to be on.

Edited to add: It's only legal for us to run our running lights during the daytime, normal low beam is illegal.

 

[Wolfe]

@FPV MIC -- If I didn't think there was any benefit at all with DRLs, I wouldn't be opting to turn on my lights instead. The rears are absolutely desirable in my case because of the unusual driving I do for my job as a property assessor. Meanwhile, being able to turn the headlights off is also desirable, like when pulling in to park the car for a public astronomy viewing night. The "off" position on a headlight switch was put there for a reason.

That's wild that headlights are illegal in daylight; here in Wisconsin we had signs asking people to turn on their lights for extra visibility years before DRLs became commonplace. My DRLs were almost indistinguishable from the low-beam circuit on the same bulb, anyway.

 

[Danoff]

While we're on the subject of automated lights, I don't like the auto setting for headlights.

Back in CA, there was an overpass that I would regularly go under that was long enough to trigger everyone's automatic headlights to turn on. The tail lights would come on too, and everyone would think that the folks in front of them were braking, so they'd start braking, and we got a traffic jam at that overpass which would suddenly disappear as you exited the overpass. So annoying.

I also hate pulling into my garage and then turning off my car right after the headlights came on and leveled themselves.

 

[Moby45]

@FPV MIC
That's wild that headlights are illegal in daylight; here in Wisconsin we had signs asking people to turn on their lights for extra visibility years before DRLs became commonplace. My DRLs were almost indistinguishable from the low-beam circuit on the same bulb, anyway.

I can understand a little bit on why they would be illegal during the daylight. Depending on the car and their brightness of course.

But at the same time, I also think they should be on for anything other than bright sunshine for the reason you stated. Visibility. Here people don't turn their headlights on in the rain or at times of dusk in which both cases are really needed because it is very difficult to see cars during those times.

 

[FPV MIC]

@FPV MIC -- If I didn't think there was any benefit at all with DRLs, I wouldn't be opting to turn on my lights instead. The rears are absolutely desirable in my case because of the unusual driving I do for my job as a property assessor. Meanwhile, being able to turn the headlights off is also desirable, like when pulling in to park the car for a public astronomy viewing night. The "off" position on a headlight switch was put there for a reason.

I don't understand why you would need a such a low level of light at the front and still have your rear lights functioning. If you don't mind, could you elaborate?

In any case, with my car I can switch to the parking lights so both front and rear work, and I can also turn of the driving lights via the infotainment system. Could this be possible for you?

That's wild that headlights are illegal in daylight; here in Wisconsin we had signs asking people to turn on their lights for extra visibility years before DRLs became commonplace. My DRLs were almost indistinguishable from the low-beam circuit on the same bulb, anyway

We were allowed (and encouraged) to use the parkers, for all except motorcycles which could run anything except high beam, on the open road before DRLs became commonplace. The reason for it was that the added brightness made it far more difficult to judge the distance of an approaching car, especially on long straight undulating two-way roads.

While we're on the subject of automated lights, I don't like the auto setting for headlights.

Back in CA, there was an overpass that I would regularly go under that was long enough to trigger everyone's automatic headlights to turn on. The tail lights would come on too, and everyone would think that the folks in front of them were braking, so they'd start braking, and we got a traffic jam at that overpass which would suddenly disappear as you exited the overpass. So annoying.

I also hate pulling into my garage and then turning off my car right after the headlights came on and leveled themselves.

Can you change the sensitivity via the infotainment system? On my car I can adjust the sensitivity for both the auto wipers and auto headlights

 

[Tornado]

I drive with my parking lights on because I need them on so my douchey yellow foglights work in the daytime.

 

[Wolfe]

I don't understand why you would need a such a low level of light at the front and still have your rear lights functioning. If you don't mind, could you elaborate?

In any case, with my car I can switch to the parking lights so both front and rear work, and I can also turn of the driving lights via the infotainment system. Could this be possible for you?

Low level of light? Are you perhaps imagining that my car has separate driving lights, maybe LEDs? It doesn't. The DRL is the low-beam bulb. All I've done is made it so I can use it on my own terms, while putting out more light. I would not have unplugged it if my car had those nice-looking LED strips or a button to turn them off.

My car doesn't have an infotainment system, thankfully. I don't like them.

We were allowed (and encouraged) to use the parkers, for all except motorcycles which could run anything except high beam, on the open road before DRLs became commonplace. The reason for it was that the added brightness made it far more difficult to judge the distance of an approaching car, especially on long straight undulating two-way roads.

That makes some sense. We don't have long straight undulating two-way roads -- that's over the river in Iowa, or down in Illinois. Aside from the main highways, which are gently curved and generally offer good visibility, we have twisty ridge and valley roads with blind corners and shady wooded areas, some hardly wide enough to squeeze by another car.

That's why the rear lights matter. When I'm working, cars are likely to come up behind me while I'm looking at buildings and land. I watch my mirrors all day.

 

[FPV MIC]

Low level of light? Are you perhaps imagining that my car has separate driving lights, maybe LEDs? It doesn't. The DRL is the low-beam bulb. All I've done is made it so I can use it on my own terms, while putting out more light. I would not have unplugged it if my car had those nice-looking LED strips or a button to turn them off.

My car doesn't have an infotainment system, thankfully. I don't like them.


That makes some sense. We don't have long straight undulating two-way roads -- that's over the river in Iowa, or down in Illinois. Aside from the main highways, which are gently curved and generally offer good visibility, we have twisty ridge and valley roads with blind corners and shady wooded areas, some hardly wide enough to squeeze by another car.

That's why the rear lights matter. When I'm working, cars are likely to come up behind me while I'm looking at buildings and land. I watch my mirrors all day.

Ahhh, that explains it. Thanks