97 Percent of Keyless Entry and Start Systems are Vulnerable to Attack

Discussion in 'Auto News' started by GTPNewsWire, Jan 28, 2019.

  1. GTPNewsWire

    GTPNewsWire Contributing Writer

    Messages:
    8,096
    Location:
    United States
  2. Moglet

    Moglet Premium

    Messages:
    11,472
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This is where living in a very long house comes in useful as our car keys are stored about 45ft away from the car. Although I guess they could move around the other end to pick up the signal it's fairly unlikely they would be able to get into the right spot given the layout of the building.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  3. Auditore

    Auditore

    Messages:
    1,497
    "A more reliable method is to use a Faraday Cage. This is any closed metal box, which will prevent signals passing either out or in. An ordinary key safe will do the trick, as will any other kind of safe, or even a plastic box lined with foil."

    So you need to lock your key in a box and you need to lock that box with a key........i think it's easier to buy a car with a real key.
     
  4. Famine

    Famine Administrator

    Messages:
    64,700
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The difference being that a physical key for a key safe isn't susceptible to the signal interception equipment that car thieves can use to gain access to your car without ever being in your house...

    ... and my safe has a keypad. And a Tupperware box lined with aluminium foil doesn't need even that. The Internet also says to wrap your keys themselves in foil, but that's dumb.
     
  5. Moglet

    Moglet Premium

    Messages:
    11,472
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    You don't need to keep it in a lockable box, just one that is made from metal and can be closed to prevent signals from getting out.
     
  6. kikie

    kikie Premium

    Messages:
    17,783
    Or put your car in a Faraday garage. :dopey: :dunce: :idea:
     
  7. daan

    daan Moderator

    Messages:
    32,310
    Location:
    Scotland
    A car can act as a Faraday cage, so can you not just leave your key inside it?

    Oh....
     
    Nexus, Nismonath5, Quakebass and 4 others like this.
  8. waukazoo

    waukazoo

    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    United States
    If you have an empty Altoids tin laying around you have a faraday cage. Easily fits two keyless fobs any other keys you may have attached to them.
     
  9. Tornado

    Tornado

    Messages:
    37,512
    I sure am glad my PKE system never worked so I just leave the doors unlocked.





    Wait.
     
  10. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

    Messages:
    1,025
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Because putting a key in a lock or pressing a button on a remote is so hard to do. I hate it when industries create a demand which didn't existed and ends up killing the primary functions of the thing. It reminds me of that fridge which will send you a notification on your phone if you leave the door open, when 40 years old fridges doors will just shut themselves closed with gravity.
     
  11. NaketWookie

    NaketWookie

    Messages:
    119
    Location:
    Germany
    Manufacturers know this for a long time. Need an example? Here you go:

    you need 2 People with VW Keys... the "standard one", opens, locks the car and maybe trunk.
    open both cars. Know lock one car by pressing the lock button. Hold the lock (or open) button on your key.
    The 2nd car will not lock or react in any way if you press the key, because the first key is still "blocking" the radio frequencies. You CAN NOT lock your car with the remote at all.

    This is known by VW for over 8 years at least!

    At every quick stop... like jumping in the bakery on a sunday morning or something like that... make sure your car is locked!
     
  12. Nomadpt1

    Nomadpt1

    Messages:
    334
    Location:
    Portugal
    Never undetstood what's wrong with a normal key ignition but maybe that is just me :odd:
     
  13. Oyashiro-sama

    Oyashiro-sama

    Messages:
    311
    Location:
    Portugal
    First of all, the key should always be "asleep" (to save battery). It should be when someone touches the door that the car would send a signal to the key and the key would wake up and reply. The problem would still be there, but at least you'd save the key batteries.

    It's not to say that traditional keys are safe (they are not, and someone stole my car before, argh). But opening the doors is one thing, starting the car should ALWAYS require either the physical key to be inserted, inputting a password or that your fingertip scanned (and even this is stupid, because your finger may be hurt...). Otherwise is making things even simpler for burglars...
     
  14. RocZX

    RocZX Premium

    Messages:
    8,809
    Location:
    United States
    How about no, grandpa. :p
    It's that a step back and removes the whole convenience of the keyless system.


    Why does the keyfob signal need to have distance of up to 10ft, Why not make it less then 1ft? Do you really need your car to be unlocked when you are still feet way, would it kill you if you wait a 2 seconds when you get next the door for the car to unlock?
     
  15. Juan Domingo

    Juan Domingo

    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    Spain
    There's nothing wrong with it, it's just more comfortable. It can also be useful, my car has keyless entry and the key is like brand new, because you don't have to take it off your pocket, and for sure you will avoid the key to fall to the ground sometimes... The start button isn't as useful as the keyless entry in my opinion, even though you can keep your key in your pocket in some cars.
     
  16. regnar

    regnar Premium

    Messages:
    1,260
    Location:
    United States
    These days with with signal blocker pouches being so cheep, don’t know why the manufacture/dealership don’t provide the costumers with one at time of purchasing the vehicle.
     
  17. Famine

    Famine Administrator

    Messages:
    64,700
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Do you need it to lock when you're 10 feet from the sensor digging around in the boot?

    It varies from brand to brand. I've done a lot of keyless ignition testing and also found that no system tested will shut the engine down if the key is taken out of range while the car is on. That means that in theory you can drive until the tank is empty with no key so long as you can start it in the first place. There were reports that an early VW system would shut the engine down immediately if the key went out of range - those reports coming from an incident in Germany where a woman gave her 2-year old the key to play with while she was driving, he chucked it out of the window and the car came to an immediate halt on the autobahn - but I've never seen that corroborated.
     
  18. Liquid

    Liquid Premium

    Messages:
    20,970
    Location:
    Slovakia
    Is it still "true" that putting the central locking key to your head doubles its range?
     
  19. Moglet

    Moglet Premium

    Messages:
    11,472
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    A fridge door that closes itself with gravity sounds very annoying when loading or unloading lots of items so I'm very glad we no longer have those.
    As for the key I quite like having keyless entry and start as it means I can leave the keys in my pocket most of the time and don't have to keep taking them in and out of my jeans.

    Because they wouldn't want to basically admit that their security system isn't that secure.
     
  20. EDK

    EDK Moderator

    Messages:
    13,665
    Location:
    United States
    The keyless system is somewhat convenient for men, but is VERY convenient for women. My wife has her key zipped into a pocket in her purse and never needs to take it out. I am of course referencing that most women keep their car keys in a purse, and may have to go digging around for the keys in absence of a keyless system.

    My daily has the proximity so that I can unlock the car with a button on the door handle. My Challenger has the early keyless system, which has push button start, but no proximity sensor. So I have to take the key out of my pocket to lock and unlock the car using the push button. It's more of a novelty than a convenience.

    This article does explain why I have to replace batteries so frequently for a car that I have put about 23,000 miles on in nearly 9 years........
     
  21. Nomadpt1

    Nomadpt1

    Messages:
    334
    Location:
    Portugal
    I drove both and in my opinion, it makes no diference. To me, this is engineers trying to solve a problem that did not need to be solved so it's more thing they can sell.
     
  22. Tornado

    Tornado

    Messages:
    37,512
    It does amuse me that nearly every time there's an article about a problem with a feature in a car any newer than electronic fuel injection it immediately devolves to how there's nothing wrong with whatever was used before that thing and it never should have had time wasted on it. There was nothing wrong with manual door locks, but it's massively more convenient to not have to fumble with your keys if you ever have to get into your car for a reason other than driving it away. I actively do wish even the crappy PKE system on my car worked and will probably spent a boatload getting it working this summer. If it wasn't convenient, Ford wouldn't have spent three decades putting those functionally similar goofy looking keypads on their cars even to this day, then be forced to out it back after outcry when they removed it abiut a decade ago.





    I first noticed it after the idiot locked himself in his Cadillac XLR for two days over the summer and people came out of the woodwork to decry electronic door latches.
     
  23. kikie

    kikie Premium

    Messages:
    17,783
    I have this idea that will make me rich.

    Why not use this with this to start a car?
     
    Nomadpt1 likes this.
  24. WyldAnimal

    WyldAnimal

    Messages:
    250
    Newer Key Fobs, do turn off and Sleep.
    they wake up when the fob detects motion.

    the exploit, is detecting / capturing the signal from the Fob, and sending that signal to a device that will resend it to the car.
    The car now thinks to Fob is close to the car.

    If the FOB goes to Sleep, or is inside a pouch or box that blocks radio signals.
    then there is no Signal to capture and resend.


    I do remember a device that could Record the signal.
    so in a crowded parking lot, the device is used to record the signal.
    then Followed that car to home. now you know where home is.
    Come back Later and replay the recording
    the car is yours.
    Does this device still exist, and does it still work as an exploit?
     
  25. Moglet

    Moglet Premium

    Messages:
    11,472
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I regularly drive 2 cars; 1 has keyless entry and start and the other has central locking but no remote anything. The keyless entry is so much more convenient in everyday situations, especially when you're carrying a lot of shopping.
     
    Joey D likes this.
  26. MisterMR44

    MisterMR44

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I guess the other way to tackle this is to simply opt for a version of the vehicle that is less desirable to thieves. Yeah... I could've gone for the AMG63S... but that would've been key hacked within the week. So instead, I went for the 250 diesel... and yup, months later... it's still outside the house...

    I'm kidding of course.

    Don't let these people change the way you live.

    Yes. Your skeleton acts as an antenna.

    Completely agree. It's mad. And completely inconsistent. My car's keyfob has a ridiculous range for remote opening of the the tailgate (I have tested this up to 50 metres) but oddly, considerably less for remote closing it (it won't unless you are literally standing next to the car). I have often gone out to the car with it's tailgate wide open because I have had the keys in my pocket and inadvertently lent against them... how long has the car been out there with it's pants down?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2019
  27. im2fst4u

    im2fst4u

    Messages:
    326
    Location:
    Canada
    I think it'd be cool to have a simple "start up sequence" to the car
    Just some two or three way toggle switches that reset when the keys leave the car. You could have five switches that you set in a pattern, up, down, down, down, up, start button.
    Start up sequences are fun.
     
  28. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

    Messages:
    1,025
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Just open it more than 90°. Simple problems, simple solutions.
     
  29. Moglet

    Moglet Premium

    Messages:
    11,472
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It wouldn't work in my kitchen then, ours is a built-in - it can't be opened further than 90° without damaging the cupboard doors
     
  30. SimTourist

    SimTourist

    Messages:
    1,217
    Most cars come with a central touchscreen these days, so maybe you could set up a password to start it up, although that might get annoying quickly.