A call for mod community support

[Voodoovaj]

Here's some free professional advice for Sony and PD. It is in the franchise's best interest to support the mod community (if Sony is not doing so already).

Here's how:

1 - Bring an editor creator in house. Give this guy a salary and allow him to work within the licensing limitations. Some things make me believe this may be the case, but if it isn't make the editor "official" buy providing information about it through the GT official site.

2 - Remove the unlimited options for PP and tires. If rooms can set soft racing or less, as the limiter as is the case with all other tires, tire cheating is eliminated. By always requiring PP you create a limitation for modders to work within.

3 - Highlight the mod cars so there is transparency.

This may all be a moot point for GT5 given it's age, but as the franchise ages, a vibrant mod community will be critical to keeping the evolution of the franchise fresh.

GT is one of the few franchises without a mod community. It was easy to neglect it since mod communities tend to only exist on the PC, but recent events have presented a fantastic opportunity if Sony chooses to treat it as such.

 

[fbccars924]

I agree with this. I like some of the hybrid/mod/hacks being made. I find things like the rocket bug interesting because it allows us to fully explore the physics in the game. Case in point there is no discernible Sonic Boom when you are passed by a vehicle doing 999mph. I think PD and Sony should use this as an opportunity to upgrade their flagships (Playstation line and the GT series) to create a better game and system. GT5 is one of the most in depth games Playstation has on its current incarnation. If GT5 showcases the PS3's limits then we are being held back by something in the game. Yes, there are too many skylines, miatas and what have you limit it down to one maybe two of each generation of each car so we have room for more premiums. Want a Skyline Vspec N1 in the game? Give us a livery editor and a Vspec Nur. bam you got a N1. Want MNP skyline(btw, dumbest reason to add a WHOLE other car for) Bam we go the MNP paint chip and and The Nur already so now not only do we have both cars and eliminate wasted slots but we now have both PREMIUM.

 

[eran0004]

Or, take some of the modding options and make them available in the tuning shop. Problem solved.

Only the realistic stuff though.

 

[Snapey]

Or, take some of the modding options and make them available in the tuning shop. Problem solved.

Only the realistic stuff though.

This is a good idea.

To the OP
In my opinion modding is not the way forward at all, sure it provides extra game time/fun for the user who has the modded/hacked cars, and I can see that a select few enjoy it. But you have to understand that a game like gran truismo can be drastically modified and has ruined the idea of online play for some (due to hackers making stupidly fast cars.) you may say to this, that the user could just leave the lobby? Well, that could solve it. But the chances of joining another lobby with a hacked car (at this time a week back) would have been high. It's like people who drive dirty and don't race properly. It disheartens the casual(but good) racer like myself to actually enjoy online play. And anyway, even if we were given more modding features, people would still try to break the game, I guess it's a evolution of some kind, because we could get more in-depth features, but on the flip side we could end up breaking the GT community, and then who knows what would happen to our favourite game?

Sorry for this long winded post, I just needed to get it out there.

 

[Voodoovaj]

This is a good idea.

To the OP
In my opinion modding is not the way forward at all, sure it provides extra game time/fun for the user who has the modded/hacked cars, and I can see that a select few enjoy it. But you have to understand that a game like gran truismo can be drastically modified and has ruined the idea of online play for some (due to hackers making stupidly fast cars.) you may say to this, that the user could just leave the lobby? Well, that could solve it. But the chances of joining another lobby with a hacked car (at this time a week back) would have been high. It's like people who drive dirty and don't race properly. It disheartens the casual(but good) racer like myself to actually enjoy online play. And anyway, even if we were given more modding features, people would still try to break the game, I guess it's a evolution of some kind, because we could get more in-depth features, but on the flip side we could end up breaking the GT community, and then who knows what would happen to our favourite game?

Sorry for this long winded post, I just needed to get it out there.

I think I am justified in believing that I understand franchise management fairly well. I did a decent job in the past. Feel free to Google my username.

I'm posting because I feel passionately about the franchise but also about the community. GT5 is the first release with online, so it's not surprising that the PD team is still finding their way in all of this.

For the time being, the mod community can make their case by behaving themselves. Set up lounges with names that let people know what to expect. I suggest "Outlaw" as the key word since modders have been somewhat branded as such. "Hacking" has negative connotations and suggests cheating. Give your room limits for PP and tires so that out of control mods are held at bay and actual cheating is discouraged. Don't allow unsightly mods, because this can be more of an issue to licencors than fiddling with some numbers.

I'm not trying to showoff or be a douche. I simply want to see this aspect of the game nurtured. Creating opposition towards your community is harmful to sales. With AAA franchises at greater risk than ever before, nurturing the passionate core fan base will only mean continued success.

 

[NFSCARBON1]

What if PD added an in game facility to make these cars that simply hex edits the cars like the tools modders have been using.

However all cars could be given the 'Hybrid' country and would not be useable in seasonals. Online lobbies need only an extra option added;
Kart
Ferrari F1
Normal Cars (Default)
All Cars (which would include Hybrids)

Now by including this editor, hybrids could be made without SSS or RSS tyres, without multipliers and without resorting to third party software.

 

[D-Max]

Only the realistic stuff though.

Define realistic...

If I were to say to you, A Viper V10 in a Silvia S15, What would you say about that?

probably unrealistic right? But it exists. The line of realistic and non-realistic is very very fine.

 

[Jawehawk]

H
GT is one of the few franchises without a mod community. It was easy to neglect it since mod communities tend to only exist on the PC, but recent events have presented a fantastic opportunity if Sony chooses to treat it as such.

Wrong. Very wrong in fact. Few console franchises support modding. It's usually reserved for PC games.
All this hybriding is just glorified cheating.

 

[Dan]

Wrong. Very wrong in fact. Few console franchises support modding. It's usually reserved for PC games.
All this hybriding is just glorified cheating.

It isn't cheating if you are using cars to gain an advantage over your opponents. If I had a hybrid drift car, I would more than likely use it solo, instead of tandem.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Wrong. Very wrong in fact. Few console franchises support modding. It's usually reserved for PC games.
All this hybriding is just glorified cheating.

Hmm. I did not know this (note the sarcasm). Did you check my post thoroughly? When people tell me I'm wrong about the games industry, I usually turn out to be right. Just because I'm retired from the industry doesn't mean I lost my knowledge.

Besides, this thread is about modding not cheating.

 

[Jawehawk]

Hmm. I did not know this (note the sarcasm). Did you check my post thoroughly? When people tell me I'm wrong about the games industry, I usually turn out to be right. Just because I'm retired from the industry doesn't mean I lost my knowledge.

Besides, this thread is about modding not cheating.

Well, you're contradicting yourself. First, you say that GT is one of few franchises that do not support modding. You then say that modding is usually reserved for PC games. Unless the game is build specifically to accomodate some kind of modding, then it doesn't work. Hence why we rarely see it in console games.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Well, you're contradicting yourself. First, you say that GT is one of few franchises that do not support modding. You then say that modding is usually reserved for PC games. Unless the game is build specifically to accomodate some kind of modding, then it doesn't work. Hence why we rarely see it in console games.

How is that a contradiction? Sony is not currently supporting the mod community (as witnessed by recent events). Modding is usually reserved for PC game.

You are assuming that the game has to be specifically built to accommodate modding, but that is not true. A game merely has to have the capacity to be modded. Have you developed AAA games in the past? I have.

If you have any other contradictory comments regarding this topic, feel free to start your own thread. Stop trolling mine and taking it off topic.

 

[eran0004]

Define realistic...

If I were to say to you, A Viper V10 in a Silvia S15, What would you say about that?

probably unrealistic right? But it exists. The line of realistic and non-realistic is very very fine.

Realistic: Is possible in reality.

That excludes 30 000 hp Civics, cars with the tyres in the wrong place, skyscrapers etc.

For the time being, the mod community can make their case by behaving themselves. Set up lounges with names that let people know what to expect. I suggest "Outlaw" as the key word since modders have been somewhat branded as such. "Hacking" has negative connotations and suggests cheating. Give your room limits for PP and tires so that out of control mods are held at bay and actual cheating is discouraged. Don't allow unsightly mods, because this can be more of an issue to licencors than fiddling with some numbers.

I don't think that would work.

The modders are not organized in a community. Some may be organized, but most are probably doing it completely on their own, perhaps asking others for help, but that's it. Some communities seems to have adopted modding on a wide front, like the drift community and parts of the photomode community. But there is no modding community. It's an anarchy, and even if most modders would accept those guidelines, there will always be a bunch of people who doesn't care.

Creating opposition towards your community is harmful to sales. With AAA franchises at greater risk than ever before, nurturing the passionate core fan base will only mean continued success.

When it comes to modding, according to the survey here, 72% of those who voted are against modding being used to ruin the online experience of others, or against it full stop. To just let it be would be even more hurting for the community than to stop it.

 

[Jawehawk]

How is that a contradiction? Sony is not currently supporting the mod community (as witnessed by recent events). Modding is usually reserved for PC game.

You are assuming that the game has to be specifically built to accommodate modding, but that is not true. A game merely has to have the capacity to be modded. Have you developed AAA games in the past? I have.

If you have any other contradictory comments regarding this topic, feel free to start your own thread. Stop trolling mine and taking it off topic.

You see it as a mod community. Sony, and in this case, my self, do not. The progress of making these "mods" is illigal. Of course Sony and PD are going to take action.

Every game can be modded. Sure. But not every game can have a functioning online community where modding takes place. The current changes in cars are the equivalent of someone changing certain files in an FPS game, to make their own guns do more damage than what they originally did. Wouldn't really matter if they only did it in single player, but if they were able to do this for multiplayer, then the balance goes right out the window.

I don't get why you'd want this to continue. Wouldn't it be better if PD focused on simply improving tuning and customization for GT6? Including engine swaps and all that. I for one don't want to see it continue as modding, as it means only a select group of people will understand how to do these things. Thus creating unfair advantages over the majority of players. Not to mention it makes cheating easy.

My definition of modding. I see it as someone changing game files, either by a legal program provided by the developer of the game, or by illigal means. I don't see the former happening in console games, as they don't have the same ways of sharing these mods as PC's do. Which means that the closest thing consoles get to something similiar to modding are Little Big PLanet and Modnation. Where everyone are given the same tools. But these games are build around these tools.

I don't quite see how modding fits in with racing sims. On PC, modding in general makes sense because everyone can visit a site and download the mod from there. Bear in mind that mods are very different in PC games, as they don't give you actual advantages over other players. Instead, they offer you new maps, game modes and skins/sounds. In the case of GT5, however, they give significant advantages to the players using them.

I know you state in the OP that PD should simply make it puplic how the current modding is done, and that they should embrace it. But what about those of us who don't want to see these things added to the game without proper implementation? How would PD regulate what kind of modding is done?

Just to give an example of how easy it currently is for someone to cheat with these mod tools. I run a Racing Series on GTP. In the Series, tuning is occasionally allowed to certain specs. However, as things like aerodynamics differentiate from car to car, it's not too hard to believe that someone might decide to mod his car in order to get better aero kits than what would otherwise be possible. Giving him/her an unfair edge.

I realise that your 3rd point in the OP addresses this as being solveable by highlighting modded cars.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[Cote Dazur]

If some one creates a program, some one else will be able to decrypt it and make changes, there is nothing that can be done against it.
Allowing players in GT5 or other games/SIM to express their creativity is the only route. Does not matter if a 12 year old idea of fun is a 10,000 BHP Civic or if a mature men prefers a sleeper BMW, all is good as it broaden the capacity of entertainment of the game.
If there is a competition online, it needs to taken into account and be regulated in a way that guarantee a fair fight, not very different from real life, talk to Lance about it.
Even today there are many ways to rig an online lobby and prevent cheating, if we need more filters, then up to PD to add them, like in real life, just organise the competition with your eyes wide open and build the rule accordingly.
It is prejudice to say that the mod community is about cheating, the mod community is about exploring and creating. Some cheater will be there, it seems they are every where.

 

[Voodoovaj]

When it comes to modding, according to the survey here, 72% of those who voted are against modding being used to ruin the online experience of others, or against it full stop. To just let it be would be even more hurting for the community than to stop it.

Depends how you interpret those numbers. You could also say that 71% are in favor of it or condone it as long as it does not ruin online.

All I'm saying is that modded cars should be embraced and by that I mean those that are used to extend the game and that are competitive with other cars in their class. I'm racing with mine online not and no one seems to be calling me a cheat. I slam mine to the ground, so they are obvious as modded.

 

[eran0004]

I don't get why you'd want this to continue. Wouldn't it be better if PD focused on simply improving tuning and customization for GT6? Including engine swaps and all that. I for one don't want to see it continue as modding, as it means only a select group of people will understand how to do these things. Thus creating unfair advantages over the majority of players. Not to mention it makes cheating easy.

Exactly.

A game on the PlayStation 3 should be playable on the PlayStation 3. You shouldn't need a PC to get a few extra tuning options.

Also, all of those tuning parts were excluded from the game for a reason. Otherwise, if they're there and fully functional, they would have been available in the tuning shop. Or did PD decide to hide some code in the game just for fun?

Depends how you interpret those numbers. You could also say that 71% are in favor of it or condone it as long as it does not ruin online.

Yes, "as long as it doesn't". Which is a hypothetical situation, because in reality it does. Not everyone do it, but it occurs every day in an awful lot of lobbies. You could also interpret the numbers as 28% of people doesn't see a problem with modded cars ruining online lobbies, because it's all for fun.

All I'm saying is that modded cars should be embraced and by that I mean those that are used to extend the game and that are competitive with other cars in their class. I'm racing with mine online not and no one seems to be calling me a cheat. I slam mine to the ground, so they are obvious as modded.

And exactly how do you propose that solution to be implemented? It's like saying: "I have the perfect solution for world peace! Let's just be nice to each other, everyone!". It doesn't work.

 

[Bluntified]

While I've read through this entire thread, I do have to question; what console based game allows mods? I haven't heard of any. Others console or ID ban the user from doing mods to their games, how is this different?

PC games are where the modders get their "freedom of expression" (so to speak). PC game devs embrace the modding community, they know they can't stop it so, go with it! This is a little different with console games, they keep everything (code) in a tight lock, it's their property, not yours.

When you buy a console game (or any type of software), you don't own anything, you only lease a license to use it! When you open that software up, you void your lease.

Edit: I'm neither or against hybrids, I'm against software "modding". People (devs) put in hundreds of hours of hard work, do you think they like when someone opens it up and dismembers it?

 

[fbccars924]

@PD- [Rant] i just created a look a like MNP R34 and a N1 R34 both premium and both unhacked. How? by using the parts available to make them Paint and A carbon hood are all that was needed. For godsakes we are wasting usable space on cars that are very unnecessary[/Rant]

On a side note, I am proud to admit despite recent news on GT5 modding/hacking/hybriding is still strong and kicking in the lobbies.

 

[Rallywagon]

PD and sony are obviously very much against hacking/modding. Remember Sony persecuted someone a few years back for hacking the PS3. They won't see this any differently. Right now, PD's main focus is on the people using hacked on the seasonal events, and osme of those that are getting reported in open lobbies. I put good money on PD starting to crack down harder and harder on this. While I agree that there should be more to tuning and to many variants of certain cars - even Kaz has agreed to this, and stated his reason for it - you won't see something like engine swaps in a game like this. They would never get a license for it from the car manufacturers. No way will Ford allow a GM engine swap, or toyota get a honda motor in this game. The ones that are doing the responsible modding, like you see in the drift thread, could easily be appeased by allowing better suspension tuning. They just want to better fill up wheel wells and push out tires. Same with the photogs. This can be done through the game in GTauto or the tuning garage and still keep the integrity of the game intact and still keep the tuning community happy.
The bad thing about hacking cars though, is just like others have voiced, the actual race experience. Hacked cars completely ruin this. To say bringing a hacked car into a lobby isn't cheating is bogus. you enter a room, expecting to run against a set parameter of tuning, the race starts, you hit the first corner and a couple of racers take that hairpin full blast while everyone else takes it properly. To say "well you can have the 'modded' cars be marked.' If you already hacked the game to give yourself the advantageous car, then you can hack the tag that will mark it as such.
I think PD should take a look at the people doing legit things, such as the people who only are doing this for stance reason, and learn the lesson there. But don't think PD or sony will only go so far as to lock out a few accounts, post a message and say "well that will show them." That was just the warning shot. Mr. "I'm in the biz!" you of all people should know better. Expect bigger crack downs and possible lawsuits against people publishing the editors.

 

[King Rocket]

The whole point of consoles is to stop modding, if we can mod games like we can on PC why pay for DLC?

 

[NLxAROSA]

The whole point of consoles is to stop modding, if we can mod games like we can on PC why pay for DLC?

AFAIK, people still buy DLC for moddable PC games.

Today, the whole point of consoles is vendor lock-in, nothing more. Consoles used to have the insert-and-play advantage over PCs, but with online, patches, etc. that's no longer the case. So what's left is inferior hardware that runs a couple of exclusives. They sell you the console because you need it to play and buy the exclusives. And the moment someone interferes with that by hacking so it plays copied games, or hacking so it ruins other peoples online experience, they'll crack down on it, because it will hurt their sales.

 

[MeanElf]

...Every game can be modded. Sure. But not every game can have a functioning online community where modding takes place. The current changes in cars are the equivalent of someone changing certain files in an FPS game, to make their own guns do more damage than what they originally did...if they were able to do this for multiplayer, then the balance goes right out the window.

I don't get why you'd want this to continue. Wouldn't it be better if PD focused on simply improving tuning and customization for GT6? Including engine swaps and all that. I for one don't want to see it continue as modding, as it means only a select group of people will understand how to do these things. Thus creating unfair advantages over the majority of players. Not to mention it makes cheating easy.

My definition of modding. I see it as someone changing game files, either by a legal program provided by the developer of the game, or by illigal means. I don't see the former happening in console games, as they don't have the same ways of sharing these mods as PC's do. Which means that the closest thing consoles get to something similiar to modding are Little Big PLanet and Modnation. Where everyone are given the same tools. But these games are build around these tools.

...I know you state in the OP that PD should simply make it puplic how the current modding is done, and that they should embrace it. But what about those of us who don't want to see these things added to the game without proper implementation? How would PD regulate what kind of modding is done?

Just to give an example of how easy it currently is for someone to cheat with these mod tools. I run a Racing Series on GTP. In the Series, tuning is occasionally allowed to certain specs. However, as things like aerodynamics differentiate from car to car, it's not too hard to believe that someone might decide to mod his car in order to get better aero kits than what would otherwise be possible. Giving him/her an unfair edge.

I realise that your 3rd point in the OP addresses this as being solveable by highlighting modded cars.

Sorry for the long post.

Excellent points Jawehawk.

Folks can wish and rail against this ban threat all they want, but it should be down to PD to include this in-game - I doubt however that this is something that will happen for GT5 as that would not be a simple matter to implement. Unless the modders have forgotten, they are trying to make GT6 right now.

I'm annoyed that the modders are drawing PD's resources away from that goal. Be patient, if PD want to include broader tuning options in GT6 then they will.

If not, then you are welcome to go off and find a game that will allow you to do that - just please do not expect the whole community to support what you personally want.

Lastly, on the news item detailing the ban, Pit Crew put a very valid comment:

I’d love the option, but its not what I bought into the gt series for. The game advertises it self as a driving sim not mod sim.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Well then, I guess time will tell. I'm easy to find and ban if they choose. It appears it needs to stay underground, which I suppose is fitting.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The fix to keep modded cars out of lobbies is simple. The game already includes a spec check option to see whether a car is tuned or not so obviously there is programming in the game to look over all the regular tuning options in a car before it enters a lobby. Change the parameters of that check, add a checkbox into the lobby options, fire off an update.....voila...done. The way I see it, if PD doesn't fix this, the responsibility for what happens to the game in the wake of unlimited modding lies solely with them.

 

[Sphinx]

It is in the franchise's best interest to support the hybrid community (if Sony is not doing so already).

Fix that for you. The clue's in the forum name;
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=13

 

[Cote Dazur]

AFAIK, people still buy DLC for moddable PC games.

Today, the whole point of consoles is vendor lock-in, nothing more. Consoles used to have the insert-and-play advantage over PCs, but with online, patches, etc. that's no longer the case. So what's left is inferior hardware that runs a couple of exclusives. They sell you the console because you need it to play and buy the exclusives. And the moment someone interferes with that by hacking so it plays copied games, or hacking so it ruins other peoples online experience, they'll crack down on it, because it will hurt their sales.

very good points, since the console are taking advantage of being online for patches, DLC, multiplayer, it is a 2 way street, it also opens the door of their kingdom to invaders.
But the real motivation is making money, exclusive hardware playing exclusive software brings cash. having online connectivity, dlc, patches brings cash.

Now the interesting question for PD and Sony is, will there be more interest for a modifiable GT5 in todays market.
We will know by how hard PD/Sony fight back. So far, from their very weak response, I believe they have understood they are gaining from it. IE are and will make more money.
You don't believe their response is weak and purely political, fine, name me 10 people who have been banned since the big announcement.

@Sphynx, thank for the link to the : The Complete Hybriding Guide For Gran Turismo 4. thread.
I had no idea this had been done to GT4 as well.

 

[Sphinx]

@Sphynx, thank for the link to the : The Complete Hybriding Guide For Gran Turismo 4. thread.
I had no idea this had been done to GT4 as well.

You're welcome. Aye, the forum is easily missed. It's only been there since 2001.

it's 'Sphinx' by the way. 👍

 

[HoneyBadger]

How about a compromise where hybrids would not be allowed in the Open Lobby but would be allowed in the private "My Lounge"?

The mod'ers could do their thing and rest of us could do ours without interference from them.

 

[Voodoovaj]

You're welcome. Aye, the forum is easily missed. It's only been there since 2001.

it's 'Sphinx' by the way. 👍

I hear you. Thanks.

I was hoping that it could be elevated a bit given the online nature of gt5, but I suppose you are right and the best place to discuss this is amongst those that already appreciate it.