A critique of the whole racing genre by Raycevik

  • Thread starter marioho
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This vid sums up the current state of racing games way better than I could ever have. From creative bankruptcy and complacency to the just awful focus on what's important in a game. And importantly, he hands out a fair bunch of the blame to, well... players. US. The metaphor he used in regards to the controversial reaction to NFS Unbound graphics says alot in itself. Naturally, some will say that what I'm saying is paramount to "vote with your wallet" - except it's not and besides, since when has that ever worked? It's like claiming that reducing your personal carbon footprint will "save the planet" - the only thing it does is make yourself feel better, sorry.

What I'm saying however (and he says this in the vid too), is us players as a whole should seriously reconsider our priorities and expectations. Realistic handling is all well and good, but besides wanting relatively bug-free games (which is a modern game thing in general), wanting games that are actually interesting beyond having x supra in the game would be wonderful, even if it's vague. And in that respect, I am cautiously optimistic.

The above is a tweet by youtuber Shinyodd complaining about racing games refusing to add anything unique vehicle wise. Yes this may be in the context of licensed cars which I feel hasn't helped this current racing game situation, but it's a start. Vids like this popping up? Alot of them are just blind nostalgia (though this one is very good at avoiding it), but once again, it's a start.
And that's not even mentioning a fact that comments of this vid mentioned - fighting games (Tekken and the lot) was in a similar stagnant position a few years ago and have seemingly pulled themselves together since. What's not to say racing games can't do the same?

With that wall of the text done... one final thing I'd like to add, and really my only criticism of the video - it's too lenient towards indie devs. Art of Rally and Wreckfest are exemptions from a norm of games either chasing trends or emulating the big boys or both - and that is if they aren't just asset flips to begin with.
 
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Loved the way he framed it.
Even more so when he brought up how incredibly complex and costly the pursuit of realism can be, so no easy feat.
When you've already got a plateful to deal with in that regard and nothing to show referring to years old bugs and shortcomings, it paints in bold beige colors how foolish of a decision the vast majority of studios and publishers take.

Yeah, racing games want all to be fast and engaging but instead are delivering mostly a beige disappointing package with a $60-70 tag on it. Yearly.
 
Love Ray and his videos, and this is such a good one that was needed to be made for forever, I’m glad he was the one to do it and he knocked it out of the park.

He touched upon basically all the problems with the racing game genre today, so happy people like him are starting to call out the obvious problems and complacency.

Also I love how he called us out, and how we are part of the problem and how we are the ones that can help get this genre back on track and out of the slump it’s currently in.

I can only hope more and more players as well as content creators and others start calling it out how it is and asking for change, and that something positive will come out of this.
 
"Once you've battled someone wheel to wheel for entire laps online, pushing each other on a wire right to edge without ever falling off a split second firefight just seems kinda boring"

Or I'd posit racing against AI feels kinda boring as the alternative, but great quote anyway.

It's an interesting video, I've seen a few from him one memorable one being his break down of all Codies F1 games a year or so back pointing how bloody weird they are.

@marioho Nice to see you again mate, I've still not even bought F1 22 on sale I just can't justify the price for something I know I will only enjoy for a few minutes before frustration makes me regret the purchase. I'm sorry the forum sucks, I did tell you all to move here... where it doesn't suck :lol: So I don't imagine i'm all that missed!

I'm still very much hooked on GT7 personally but is it because it's made huge progress from Sport, not really, or that it offers a great single player experience, not really, but it has that same pick up and join an online race in a few button presses (generally) feature that Sport had as well that keeps me coming back. And no other racing game has done this in as solid and reliable a way... which is to back up the video, as very depressing let's be honest.

Unfortunately with the obsession with keeping franchises going rather than trying new IP's and therefore ideas I don't it changing much any time soon, and as noted the current crop all have issues of varying scale.

But.. it states here that it is behind the industry generally, really? Because when I look around I see a whole load of problems shared with other genres.

There is stlll fun to be had, IMO, in racing and other games, but are we on the downwards slide of the medium.. it's interesting to consider and to think about what comes next, just a bigger switch to 'mobile gaming' and microtransactions?
 
The video sums up things brilliantly

I could comment on several points, but @sw3g005 covered one of the most salient causes of why things in the genre are as they are - Constant dissatisfaction from the players towards new ideas, leading to creative bankruptcy and complacency. Need For Speed Unbound was such an excellent example of this. While the game has its problems, I will credit it for trying something new by adding animated effects and characters. Unfortunately, there is a very vocal crowd that would rather have things stay as they have been for well over the past decade, so developers and publishers are unlikely to green-light any idea that's too out of the ordinary to avoid negative discussions surrounding upcoming releases.

Releasing games with few unique selling points has a knock-on impact - How will player bases for racing games grow if they are not trying new art styles and gameplay features to attract new players? Catering to the nostalgia crowd doesn't get you millions of sales which is essential for a new racing game to be a profitable business case nowadays.

With the amount of detail that goes into replicating real cars and their characteristics, racing games are among some of the harder games to develop and fewer companies will enter the space if there are little to no rewards for their efforts.
 
Something I think he sort of touched on but didn't go into detail on is peripherals and how they are increasingly becoming a requirement to enjoy modern racing games not just to their fullest, but at all. It forms an unneeded price barrier to play a game and unless you are already into that type of game you aren't going to make a several hundred dollar investment when you could just play something else that uses the trusty mouse & keyboard or controller that you probably have laying around anyways. This in turn artificially limits the playerbase to those already into "super cereal racing" which means the studios have to cater to what those players want, which is why we now have a market full of GT3 focused games, it's one big self-defeating cycle.

I don't think this is even just an issue that affects potentially new gamers as I'm currently at a bit of a crossroads since I'm having an internal debate of upgrading my current G29 and PVC setup or do I just put that money towards a nice desk gaming setup and stick to racing games developed by people that realize controller users also have money.
 
Something that definitely resonated with me in the video is how the entire genre has basically been in a holding pattern, seemingly deliberately driving itself into a niche in the market since midway or so through the PS360 generation instead of really doing anything interesting or even building on the successes of that generation.
 
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Justuxful
Also I love how he called us out, and how we are part of the problem and how we are the ones that can help get this genre back on track and out of the slump it’s currently in.
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Very little chance thats going to happen considering many sides of the fanbase don't know what they want themselves and zero cohesive agreement can be met without descending into vitriol.
 
Northstar
Something I think he sort of touched on but didn't go into detail on is peripherals and how they are increasingly becoming a requirement to enjoy modern racing games not just to their fullest, but at all. It forms an unneeded price barrier to play a game and unless you are already into that type of game you aren't going to make a several hundred dollar investment when you could just play something else that uses the trusty mouse & keyboard or controller that you probably have laying around anyways. This in turn artificially limits the playerbase to those already into "super cereal racing" which means the studios have to cater to what those players want, which is why we now have a market full of GT3 focused games, it's one big self-defeating cycle.

I don't think this is even just an issue that affects potentially new gamers as I'm currently at a bit of a crossroads since I'm having an internal debate of upgrading my current G29 and PVC setup or do I just put that money towards a nice desk gaming setup and stick to racing games developed by people that realize controller users also have money.
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While I'd argue that this is related to the problems of complacency and lacking priorities - hyperfocusing on people who already have a wheel and likely will spend their money on another wheel instead of balancing focus between realism and making it easier for newcomers (who most likely wont have a wheel in the forseeable future) to join the party - this alone remains a great point to consider. Not that I play sims too often - they tend to not capture my interest as games in the long run - but I do distinctly remember setting up and using an xbox controller being considerably easier and nicer in Race 07 as opposed to Assetto Corsa.
...and that's just one, personal example of (I imagine) many examples :indiff:
 
Sometimes I feel that moddable sims also led to "just mod AC* bro" mentality for niches that lack a (recent, decent) game. The Chris Haye video on the BTCC mod is imo an epitome of that.

*Except for stock cars and rally, where AC is substituted with NR2003 and RBR, respectively.
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Northstar
Something I think he sort of touched on but didn't go into detail on is peripherals and how they are increasingly becoming a requirement to enjoy modern racing games not just to their fullest, but at all. It forms an unneeded price barrier to play a game and unless you are already into that type of game you aren't going to make a several hundred dollar investment when you could just play something else that uses the trusty mouse & keyboard or controller that you probably have laying around anyways. This in turn artificially limits the playerbase to those already into "super cereal racing" which means the studios have to cater to what those players want, which is why we now have a market full of GT3 focused games, it's one big self-defeating cycle.
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Sometimes I feel the same with fighting games due to abudance of fight/arcade sticks.
 
Hopefully racing games in general will have a bounce back close to their peak and not just continue to stagnate or get worse but it seems like many people say that about real life racing and car culture as well. Real life aspects inevitably effect games and at least in the US race tracks seem to be closing more than ever and less people seem to care about having their own cars be special however they see fit so that's not really a good sign. I'm not really knowledgeable enough to say what would get more people back interested in cars and racing while keeping things ethical and affordable but the quicker major changes are made, the better.
At least with gaming though I would consider VR a major change for the better, as it improves people can experience the best of the real world that they could never afford for real and wild over the top experiences never imagined in the past. Maybe VR will be successful enough for auto makers to jump on board and make there own licenses games like in the 2000s and get more people interested in cars or at least fund VR development and make the devices cheaper.
 
Don't have time to watch the entire video right now, but I've had some gripes with the racing genre for a while, even when I was actively playing the games and enjoying them. A big gripe that goes back a long time is that developers seemingly like to reinvent the wheel when it's unnecessary. I've probably said this 1000 times on the forum but GT1/2 had the best powerband and gearing graphs out of the entire series up to and including GT5. Why weren't they just copied and pasted into every following game? Forza did even worse and dropped their custom lobbies after FM4 (and also, didn't allow you to use custom lobbies in single player, despite being able to setup single player racers in multiplayer).

Features like this must have taken time and resources to develop, so why throw them out and replace them with something completely inferior? If they just kept the good ideas and built upon them the games should be cheaper and faster to develop at the very least right? Simulators are indeed complicated, and I have experience with a genre possibly even more complex and expensive than racing sims, which is flight sims. These games are massive undertakings and they've changed form over time to become manageable and sustainable. Instead of releasing a new game every other year or so, they're in constant development. They don't throw out things that work and I like that about them. I think racing games could take some inspiration from them. Tackling a simulation in the timespan of a typical game's development time must be a nightmare.
 
FT-1
I could comment on several points, but @sw3g005 covered one of the most salient causes of why things in the genre are as they are - Constant dissatisfaction from the players towards new ideas, leading to creative bankruptcy and complacency. Need For Speed Unbound was such an excellent example of this. While the game has its problems, I will credit it for trying something new by adding animated effects and characters. Unfortunately, there is a very vocal crowd that would rather have things stay as they have been for well over the past decade, so developers and publishers are unlikely to green-light any idea that's too out of the ordinary to avoid negative discussions surrounding upcoming releases.
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The part where he goes over the overlaps between titles and game modes (12:14). Games with:
  • Party system
  • Matchmaking
  • Custom lobbies (and custom lobbies with AI)
  • Custom presets
  • Functioning online
  • Career mode
  • Story mode (and decent story mode)
Most of them are quite basic features for a racing game, and yet there's not one title that marks all the checkboxes. Tangentially, this is one point I tend to attribute to Raycevik's "the racing genre is behind" argument, @Mercia: the a sorted out core gameplay loop still is a rare sight for us.

I’d argue there ensues a disconnect when we face these bonkers priorities. Focusing on Codies’ F1, when they introduce supercars and F1 Life (not merely cosmetics, but microtransactional cosmetics hideously disconnected with the F1 circus – lamps and sofas, really?) while:
  • Career modes have nothing new to show off apart from minor bugfixes. My Team is still virtually unplayable from season 3 onwards as the R&D makes the car an appalling maxed out unbalanced mess;
  • Online brings in crossplay… over the same dysfunctional framework.
Now I do understand that a studio have multiple departments and the guy working on designing bootless carpets does not interfere with the sound designer from working on a better audio mix for the cars.
But they do share a budget. And we know for a fact that David Greco (lead handling designer) had to work on the supercars’ handling model. I am not aware of God expanding Greco’s days to a 28h format 🤷
Greco is admirable and he got to hang out with us on the EA forums from now and then. His “wishlist” for the handling and physics of the game is impressive, all the things he wants to (or hopes he could) work on for future titles.

Who is stopping him?

The terminology diverges from company to company but we generally have:
  • Franchise creative director
  • Game director
  • Lead game designer
And a heap of branching levels for all the different aspects of a game – lead art designer, lead audio designer etc.

When we have a stud of a dev with a proper wishlist of things that would positively improve the gameplay having to spend his time working on shoehorning fixes to the handling model, so that the official F1 franchise can accommodate uninspiring supercars, I guess someone at the top of the ladder is content on shipping a minimum viable product – MVP for the core gameplay loop as long as they get to throw daft microtransactions and buzz features hoping some will stick.
 
marioho
The part where he goes over the overlaps between titles and game modes (12:14). Games with:
  • Party system
  • Matchmaking
  • Custom lobbies (and custom lobbies with AI)
  • Custom presets
  • Functioning online
  • Career mode
  • Story mode (and decent story mode)
Most of them are quite basic features for a racing game, and yet there's not one title that marks all the checkboxes. Tangentially, this is one point I tend to attribute to Raycevik's "the racing genre is behind" argument, @Mercia: the a sorted out core gameplay loop still is a rare sight for us.
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I think both of those points can stand in their own right. His point about games not being able to meet all of the criteria listed is especially valid when you are talking about long-running franchises which already have a solid base to work on. In my original post, I was talking about the complacency that prevents publishers and developers from green-lighting new racing IPs or rebooting franchises that have seen success in the past.

The creative bankruptcy becomes more obvious when you compare the variety of racing games you had on the 6th and 7th generation of consoles compared to what is available today. In recent times, the biggest sim racers focus on delivering experiences based on real-world motorsports, while the most popular arcade racers want to be super-accessible, open-world festivals with cars at the forefront. There are no AAA equivalents to the likes of Project Gotham Racing, Motorstorm, Burnout, Sega Rally and Ridge Racer. Those are just a few examples of franchises with strong followings and distinct personas, but the list could go on and on when you discover the offerings we had in the previous 2 decades.
 
@FT-1 that's fair, and I agree.
I guess I was just too focused on the intra franchise critique so to speak, with the iterative entries being lackluster and stale, and did not give proper attention to the lack of IP diversity across the industry.
 
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Other than the pretty good Unbound, Grid Legends was the most recent racing game I was very interested in. Simply because it was going to do something totally different, we were getting a live action story! A cheesy one with low budget vibes! I thought this could really be special and I anticipated spending a lot of time in the game.

What we got was a half hearted attempt, just enough to promote, but not enough to actually engage. Indeed the story ends up being the introduction to a career mode that is ripped straight from Grid 2019 and is the same structured career we have played in almost every arcade styled racer of the last and this generation.

It's almost as if they didn't want to go too hard with it in case it failed, so the basic arcade racer is still there unchanged underneath, phew, at least we're safe from any risks being taken..
 
Mercia
It's almost as if they didn't want to go too hard with it in case it failed, so the basic arcade racer is still there unchanged underneath, phew, at least we're safe from any risks being taken..
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With "risks" here being akin to having a FPS franchise where reloading have been bugged for years and the gameplay diversity in a given weapon class, say assault rifles, being yet again just the straight out DPS they have - no recoil patterns, impact on mobility, ammunition features, nothing
 
Watched this last night (I watch almost all of his stuff).

His argument that each game has a “catch” is an interesting way to frame things, lots of good points made.

He did also point out just how hard it is to make a high quality driving game, given how complex and technically demanding doing such a thing is.

These are some of the most demanding kinds of games to produce simply because your physics and systems are pushed incredibly hard due to the speed of everything.

Your typical third person action adventure doesn’t need to account for complex physics management at 200mph, or texture and asset streaming at that rate, or AI that is also bound to those challenges. It’s a minor miracle that Forza Horizon 5 runs at all on Xbox One hardware, let alone how smoothly it does so.

On the AI side, I hope the development of GT Sophy encourages other studios to rethink their AI models, as anyone who has enjoyed competent multiplayer races will tell you how stale and boring AI racing becomes afterward. Heck, the reason I enjoy DiRT Rally 2.0 multiplayer so much is because it’s all PvE, everyone against the clock and not each other.

Also, those concept arts for “DiRT Rally meets Half Life”, I’d totally play that game.


AudiMan2011
Very little chance thats going to happen considering many sides of the fanbase don't know what they want themselves and zero cohesive agreement can be met without descending into vitriol.
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The recent reaction to Forza Horizon 5 Rally Adventure is a good example.

You’ve got one half of people saying it’s going to be fun and will enjoy the off-road theme, whereas another half has immediately dismissed it because it’s not a dense urban environment full of JDM superstars.

Those same urban street racing customisation fans probably dismissed Need for Speed Unbound because of the graffiti effects too, can’t please everyone I guess.

Northstar
Something I think he sort of touched on but didn't go into detail on is peripherals and how they are increasingly becoming a requirement to enjoy modern racing games not just to their fullest, but at all.
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I think the perception that a wheel is needed is more of a challenge than the wheel itself.

Lots of games are great with a controller, and for some it’s my preferred input method despite owning a £5000 setup. I think once a game crosses that fuzzy imaginary “simulator” line there is that assumption that a wheel is mandatory, when in many cases it isn’t.

That being said, some games have shockingly poor wheel experiences, just like how some can have poor pad play too.

Mercia
"Once you've battled someone wheel to wheel for entire laps online, pushing each other on a wire right to edge without ever falling off a split second firefight just seems kinda boring"
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Can confirm. Single player racing does absolutely nothing for me outside of Achievement checklisting. I can’t predict what a human opponent will do with 100% certainty, but I can make a solid guess as we both dynamically react to each other.

Once you know that an AI won’t send it up the inside, or risk a wheel on the grass to pass on the straight, you’re no longer racing them, you’re just trying to find the holes in their logic.

Again, DiRT Rally 2.0 is my exception because it’s more PvE than PvP.
 
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@PJTierney (miss you, buddy đź’ź) wish he could have gone more in depth with the technical achievements of the genre. Even if on one hand it could go against his criticism of elitism and the quasi lunacy of the simracing hobby (players arguing with pro drivers), I do think it would be a huge plus for his priorities argument.

Take ACC and the memorizing number of variables and phenomenons it simulates. "That sound you hear, that's the wastegate opening/ABS engaging/turbo spooling/tinder notification the driver received mid lap".

When upper management have different ideas on what to prioritize and even spend the marketing budget on, it's painful to see so much ingenuity even more "arcadey" franchises have baked into their products get by unnoticed AND unfinished.
 
Really good video, thanks for sharing.

I think his criticisms can be applied to pretty much every genre in video games atm. I have the same frustrations with FPS and RPGs.
 
Interesting critique. I enjoyed watching it.

But I object to his 'creatively bankrupt' subtopic. How many racing game gets released year after year with distinct and 'interesting' design or promise, only to fizzle out without anyone noticing? Redout 2, came out July 2022, peak player counts on Steam barely over 400. Hotshot Racing, 330. Circuit Superstars, 420. Dakar Desert Rally, 430. Trail Out, 490. Art of Rally, 470. Horizon Chase Turbo, 260. Gravel, Inertial Drift, BallisticNG, Pacer, Xenon Racer, Slipstream, none of them managed to crack 200 peak player count since their release. And then consider Trailblazer and Skydrift Infinity which holds breathtaking peak player count of 19 and 17 each. Of course Steam stats isn't going to tell the entire story, but these numbers still say a lot.

Feel free to throw in ad-hoc explanation for why each of these games bombed - maybe it wasn't 'interesting' enough, maybe production value wasn't there, maybe it was just mediocre, maybe it doesn't measure up to this 20-30 years old game practically nobody can play anymore, hey it's indie what do you expect, but I still stand by my point. Despite all the clamour for 'interesting' racing games, the interest from people just doesn't seem to be there when it counts. Time and time again, some 'interesting' game will get announced, get token "huh that sounds interesting" response from people, get no traction whatsoever, and then vanish with little fanfare. It's been that same story since 2010's, and I'm tired of this whole routine. I'm at a point where I'm starting to question if the target audience for these games - this group of racing game fans so ostensibly deprived and starved for fresh, 'interesting' take on racing games - are even there in the first place.

I'm not trying to say racing games should all stay as homogenized and bland as possible to ensure that it succeeds. I want to see devs taking risks and going for that extra mile too, but players need to meet them halfway. When releasing any racing game at all is a risk, is it any wonder devs are shunning createivity and opting to iterate on what works? When there seem to be such deep disconnect between what people claim to want and how it translates to actual sales, is it surprising that devs are running like headless chicken and just opting to throw random ideas on a wall to see what sticks? Why would these big name corpo types budge an inch when any attempt on appeasing these subsection of racing game fans historically seem to result in a dud?

This is such a deep issue with so many different variables in play, and I doubt one guy going "why don't they just make creative games" and few handful of people going "huh that sounds interesting" is going to magically fix all this. Most racing game fans seem to be content staying in their comfort zone and never having to venture out for something that could interest or challenge them, warts and all, and that's fine. But I don't want to see that same types of people spreading this notion that tens of thousands of dissatisfied audiences will materialize like dandelions after spring rain as soon as devs start making 'interesting' games. It's just disingenuous.

I'm so sorry I made you read all that.

Anyway, really interesting and thought provoking video. I share the man's frustration.
 
Mr Fahrenheit
But I object to his 'creatively bankrupt' subtopic. How many racing game gets released year after year with distinct and 'interesting' design or promise, only to fizzle out without anyone noticing? Redout 2, came out July 2022, peak player counts on Steam barely over 400. Hotshot Racing, 330. Circuit Superstars, 420. Dakar Desert Rally, 430. Trail Out, 490. Art of Rally, 470. Horizon Chase Turbo, 260. Gravel, Inertial Drift, BallisticNG, Pacer, Xenon Racer, Slipstream, none of them managed to crack 200 peak player count since their release. And then consider Trailblazer and Skydrift Infinity which holds breathtaking peak player count of 19 and 17 each. Of course Steam stats isn't going to tell the entire story, but these numbers still say a lot.
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Really good point. I own some of these games but have barely played them beyond the initial few hours.

But a GT3 race on Spa on whatever current sim for the 4000th time?! Yes please :cheers:
 
Mr Fahrenheit
But I object to his 'creatively bankrupt' subtopic. How many racing game gets released year after year with distinct and 'interesting' design or promise, only to fizzle out without anyone noticing? Redout 2, came out July 2022, peak player counts on Steam barely over 400. Hotshot Racing, 330. Circuit Superstars, 420. Dakar Desert Rally, 430. Trail Out, 490. Art of Rally, 470. Horizon Chase Turbo, 260. Gravel, Inertial Drift, BallisticNG, Pacer, Xenon Racer, Slipstream, none of them managed to crack 200 peak player count since their release. And then consider Trailblazer and Skydrift Infinity which holds breathtaking peak player count of 19 and 17 each. Of course Steam stats isn't going to tell the entire story, but these numbers still say a lot.
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I've done my part and purchased some of the less popular titles, but I am usually done playing them after a couple of months have passed. Perhaps it is the effect of live service games where I expect significant gameplay features to be released periodically for me to find enough interest to return to games over several months or even years.

I reckon the success of these games should be judged by the reception they receive and how much activity they have within the first few months of their release. If I'm spending less than ÂŁ20 on a game, I'm not expecting to come back to it regularly in the long term (BeamNG has been a pleasant surprise in that regard! ;)).
 
Mercia
Really good point. I own some of these games but have barely played them beyond the initial few hours.

But a GT3 race on Spa on whatever current sim for the 4000th time?! Yes please :cheers:
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Totally understandable :lol: I mean, even with the whole diatribe I wrote above, I'd be lying if I said I didn't have embarrassing amount of time spent just circling Nurburgring over and over trying to not crash.

I also own fair share of the games I've mentioned there, Hotshot Racing, Xenon Racer and Slipstream I particularly liked. All of them feels like a passion project from the devs, which is why it's so frustrating to see their effort not getting rewarded. I can't be the only one who wants to see more of these, but where are they?

But it is what it is. Such a shame, really.
FT-1
I've done my part and purchased some of the less popular titles, but I am usually done playing them after a couple of months have passed. Perhaps it is the effect of live service games where I expect significant gameplay features to be released periodically for me to find enough interest to return to games over several months or even years.

I reckon the success of these games should be judged by the reception they receive and how much activity they have within the first few months of their release. If I'm spending less than ÂŁ20 on a game, I'm not expecting to come back to it regularly in the long term (BeamNG has been a pleasant surprise in that regard! ;)).
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Absolutely, great point. With live service games bringing new things month after month, I can't imagine small teams competing with the big cheeses of the genre. I guess it must be one of the reason why popular games in genre either tends to be live service or mod-driven sandboxes.

I'd imagine few handful of top games staying on top for months on end must also contribute to the feeling that whole genre is too homogenized, to some degree.
 
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Mr Fahrenheit
Interesting critique. I enjoyed watching it.

But I object to his 'creatively bankrupt' subtopic. How many racing game gets released year after year with distinct and 'interesting' design or promise, only to fizzle out without anyone noticing? Redout 2, came out July 2022, peak player counts on Steam barely over 400. Hotshot Racing, 330. Circuit Superstars, 420. Dakar Desert Rally, 430. Trail Out, 490. Art of Rally, 470. Horizon Chase Turbo, 260. Gravel, Inertial Drift, BallisticNG, Pacer, Xenon Racer, Slipstream, none of them managed to crack 200 peak player count since their release. And then consider Trailblazer and Skydrift Infinity which holds breathtaking peak player count of 19 and 17 each. Of course Steam stats isn't going to tell the entire story, but these numbers still say a lot.

Feel free to throw in ad-hoc explanation for why each of these games bombed - maybe it wasn't 'interesting' enough, maybe production value wasn't there, maybe it was just mediocre, maybe it doesn't measure up to this 20-30 years old game practically nobody can play anymore, hey it's indie what do you expect, but I still stand by my point. Despite all the clamour for 'interesting' racing games, the interest from people just doesn't seem to be there when it counts. Time and time again, some 'interesting' game will get announced, get token "huh that sounds interesting" response from people, get no traction whatsoever, and then vanish with little fanfare. It's been that same story since 2010's, and I'm tired of this whole routine. I'm at a point where I'm starting to question if the target audience for these games - this group of racing game fans so ostensibly deprived and starved for fresh, 'interesting' take on racing games - are even there in the first place.

I'm not trying to say racing games should all stay as homogenized and bland as possible to ensure that it succeeds. I want to see devs taking risks and going for that extra mile too, but players need to meet them halfway. When releasing any racing game at all is a risk, is it any wonder devs are shunning createivity and opting to iterate on what works? When there seem to be such deep disconnect between what people claim to want and how it translates to actual sales, is it surprising that devs are running like headless chicken and just opting to throw random ideas on a wall to see what sticks? Why would these big name corpo types budge an inch when any attempt on appeasing these subsection of racing game fans historically seem to result in a dud?

This is such a deep issue with so many different variables in play, and I doubt one guy going "why don't they just make creative games" and few handful of people going "huh that sounds interesting" is going to magically fix all this. Most racing game fans seem to be content staying in their comfort zone and never having to venture out for something that could interest or challenge them, warts and all, and that's fine. But I don't want to see that same types of people spreading this notion that tens of thousands of dissatisfied audiences will materialize like dandelions after spring rain as soon as devs start making 'interesting' games. It's just disingenuous.

I'm so sorry I made you read all that.

Anyway, really interesting and thought provoking video. I share the man's frustration.
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The main big dev that took risks in a racing game that tried to be creative and interesting was Codemasters with Onrush. It was such an immense apocalyptic failure it forced them to close Evolution Studios.
 
Veinz
I have the same frustrations with FPS and RPGs.
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We have new subgenres of FPS in last 10 years(BRs). RPGs are releasing constantly with different settings and core mechanics.

Yet, racing games are missing whole subgenres - non openworld arcades, destruction games, powerup non kart games. Car battle genre is kinda dead.


Great video, as always. Topic is little bit too big for 30 minutes, so some corners were cut. Can't say anything about simracing as I am not biggest fan of it. For arcades my problems is:
  • lack of golden-era-NFS-like games. Could be great idea for indy game with stylized art style.
  • lack of power ups in racing games. Can be implemented in your average Horizon game as a gamemode easily, will be such a gamechanger.
  • total waste of content. I really liked what TDU2 and Crew 2 did - instead of scraping previous games content they refresh it and add more. I want this in my Horizon and NFS games. I want everything that was done previously, but with features of new games. Snow in Sisterion, Eliminator in Australia and proper cop chases in Fortune Valley.
  • really bad design and balance. IDK why, but racing games just dont have proper gamedesigners like in other genres. For whatever reason gamedesigne science just isn't there.
  • lack of proper TDU successor. Like Horizon is almost like it, but without proper property management which was big part of TDU progression genius. Cut regular wheelspins out of Horizon, limit available car slots with property and game will become sooo much better.

As for "you cant do something new in racing game" - its really stupid. Like, lets think about new subgenres in last decade:
  • Soulslikes, Battle royales and extraction royals. NFS currently playing with high risk/high reward formula. Something with pink slips and relatively easily available cars comes to mind.
  • Procedurally generated worlds in survival games. Something similar to ETS comes to mind, maybe with some criminal tycoon elements (stealing cars, deliveries, driver for heist).
  • Games with interactive gameworlds. Intense traffic, destruction, dinamic elements. Something not only visual, but affecting gameplay.
 
I agree with the video in the OP. I would love to see more creativity/something different in this genre, as I've said elsewhere on this forum. A driving game with RPG elements would be great and I'm hoping we'll see some of that in the new TDU. How is that no racing games have persistent worlds? Why do all of them feel like navigating through operating systems? Why is there never any sense of actual progression?

I actually had a really fun idea for a relatively modest racer (in terms of content) that strives to feel "big" and satisfying. Drawing a bit of inspiration from Initial D, you start the game as a teenager in a rural area of Japan (Chapter 1) in the late 1980s starting with a cheap first car out of a small selection from that time period. Your first discipline is mountain/touge racing. Some amount of narrative progresses and your character ends up in a bigger city, like Nagoya, 5 years later (Chapter 2). The touge racing mechanic is still available, and whatever car you had in the previous chapter still exists, but now there is also freeway racing ala TXR/Shotuku with a selection of cars from around 1995 and older. Similar progression. And then you get into Chapter 3 which introduces circuit racing in street cars in the late 90s (Ala GT1) and then by chapter 4 or 5 you are racing dedicated track cars at international circuits in present day. Each era could have its own halo car that could be unlocked and perhaps an ultra-halo car on subsequent playthroughs. I feel like a game like this could feel really special and provide a genuine sense that you have progressed, but also provide genuinely distinct feeling game modes (each chapter) each with breathing room around them. Imagine getting through the whole game and then going back to your first car to rip some touge runs in the Chapter 1 area (maybe the whole game world opens up after completion) in your original car, 25-30 years later.

I remember playing GTA3-GTA SA (and to a lesser extent GTA 4 & 5) for the first time and feeling really immersed in the progression of those games. As the narrative unfolds over time, you get access to new game modes, new map areas, new content & features, etc. It really just works so well - there is a genuine excitement to see whats next, and genuine depth when you discover it. I want that in a racer.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
I want that in a racer.
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I have had a similar idea, mine starts in America in the late 1980s. The best way I can describe my idea for the campaign would be elements of Racedriver Grid meets NFS Most Wanted.

I agree with everything said here, I have yet to buy the latest Console generation because of this very reason. I am glad my feelings are shared by many others honestly.
 
Mr Fahrenheit
I'm not trying to say racing games should all stay as homogenized and bland as possible to ensure that it succeeds. I want to see devs taking risks and going for that extra mile too, but players need to meet them halfway. When releasing any racing game at all is a risk, is it any wonder devs are shunning createivity and opting to iterate on what works? When there seem to be such deep disconnect between what people claim to want and how it translates to actual sales, is it surprising that devs are running like headless chicken and just opting to throw random ideas on a wall to see what sticks?
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While I agree with a lot of the points in the video, I agree with this point the most. Blur and Split Second are two perfect examples; absolutely loved by the few who played them but absolutely bombed sales wise and indirectly led to their studios closing. As you said, there's a multitude of other factors in play (both examples I gave got swamped with crappy marketing, a similar release window which itself was in the middle of other big games from the period) but its what has lead to where we are now. You can easily see why the Horizon games have stuck to a single game design more or less for a decade. You can see why EA rebooted Need for Speed... and then had to do it again, since people wouldn't shut up about customisation and wanting a new Underground. You can see why all these long running series get dunked on when they stray from the fence, so they offer nostalgia based updates/DLC to claw people back in.

I'll admit, I am quite nostalgia bound myself and do prefer older games in general. But I think the games industry has diversified and changed dramatically since the start of the 8th console generation and games just can't afford to be as creative as the developers probably wanted them to be. The ones that do end up failling and they become something of a footnote that people will chase down years later and go 'this was so underrated'. It's not just racing games that struggle, literally everything does. Xbox and MS get a bad wrap for using Halo, Gears and Forza as their big releases every time it comes to announce something, but the few occasions they tried to do something different (Sunset Overdrive, ReCore), barely anybody bothered with them, so why try? My friends complain about the state of FIFA and COD every year, saying they're broken, overpriced and don't really offer anything new... they still buy them day one, full price, every time. And outside of a few cases, those are literally the only games they play. I want developers of all genres to try out new things and make stuff they want to make, but you can easily see why the publishers who give them the money just say 'nah, stick to your guns' and we get another iterative version.
 

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