A few forza questions.

[abaxas]

Since PSN is down I bought a cheap second hand copy of forza 3, to keep my busy!

I play with a pad but have a few questions.

1) Where is the over steer? I have a lotus elise which even on tight corners understeers when you put the power down? Bug or is it just like that. I want to be able to steer with the rear (all assists off apart from abs)

2) Weight transfer - is there any as I cant see any suspension movement and it appears not to matter.

3) How the hell do I switch off that jsdkfhjskdhfj 'announcer'.

Actually I'm quite enjoying playing it. It's not a sim, but that doesnt mean I cant enjoy some good old fashioned arcade racing.

 

[FyreandIce]

Since PSN is down I bought a cheap second hand copy of forza 3, to keep my busy!

I play with a pad but have a few questions.

1) Where is the over steer? I have a lotus elise which even on tight corners understeers when you put the power down? Bug or is it just like that. I want to be able to steer with the rear (all assists off apart from abs)

Lotus Elise? Oversteer? lawl!

I have no problem getting my '70 boss 'stang with almost 500kw and racing tyres sideways.

2) Weight transfer - is there any as I cant see any suspension movement and it appears not to matter.

It's definitely there My cars duck and dive and lean into corners and the handling characteristics change accordingly.

3) How the hell do I switch off that jsdkfhjskdhfj 'announcer'.

The announcer can be turned off in the audio settings if memory serves.

Actually I'm quite enjoying playing it. It's not a sim, but that doesnt mean I cant enjoy some good old fashioned arcade racing.

Thems fightin' words 'round here. Better keep opinions like that to yourself.

 

[Scaff]

Lotus Elise? Oversteer? lawl!

Noty quite sure why the idea of an Elise oversteering is funny?

It's definitely there My cars duck and dive and lean into corners and the handling characteristics change accordingly.

The effects of weight transfer are certainly part of the physics engine and it does have an effect on the cars handling, howver its quite well accepted that visual its not well represented.

Visually cars do not roll and dive as much as they should, but that does mean the physics engine is not taking it into account (as it is).

Thems fightin' words 'round here. Better keep opinions like that to yourself.

Without opinions the boards here whould be pretty redundent.

As long as they are willing to discuss opinions in a mature manner (and the AUP is followed) then they are free to post them.


Scaff

 

[Bogie 19th]

Since PSN is down I bought a cheap second hand copy of forza 3, to keep my busy!

Great choice...it's an extremely fun sim.

Where is the over steer? I have a lotus elise which even on tight corners understeers when you put the power down? Bug or is it just like that. I want to be able to steer with the rear (all assists off apart from abs)

Oversteer is indeed present in the game, but it is car dependent. The Elise happens to have less oversteer than others.

Weight transfer - is there any as I cant see any suspension movement and it appears not to matter.

Absolutely does have weight transfer, suspension movement and it does make a difference.

Actually I'm quite enjoying playing it. It's not a sim

Actually, it is.

The effects of weight transfer are certainly part of the physics engine and it does have an effect on the cars handling, howver its quite well accepted that visual its not well represented.

Visually cars do not roll and dive as much as they should, but that does mean the physics engine is not taking it into account (as it is).

 

[TT3AZ]

Well, the weight transfer in forza 3 is better and more accurate than in gt5, but the traction is flawed in forza. Its almost impossible to launch a high hp rwd car without tsc, and wilthout spinning out. Forza 3 is more flawed then gt5, because i know, i have played forza 3 a long time.

 

[t.o.]

Oh man... I think I will ban myself for 5 days.

By the way, they should change the name of this site to GTCHURCH...

I'm sorry folks but this is too funny no matter what "side" you're on.

Well, the weight transfer in forza 3 is better and more accurate than in gt5, but the traction is flawed in forza. Its almost impossible to launch a high hp rwd car without tsc, and wilthout spinning out. Forza 3 is more flawed then gt5, because i know, i have played forza 3 a long time.

I don't think it has anything to do with the traction as it has to do with throttle control. It's hellish difficult but it can be done. Maybe because I'm using a Fanatec.

 

[Scaff]

Absolutely does have weight transfer, suspension movement and it does make a difference.

As I said, its not absent, but its not shown as visually as it should be, particulalry in regard to squat and dive.


Scaff

 

[Bogie 19th]

As I said, its not absent, but its not shown as visually as it should be, particulalry in regard to squat and dive.


Scaff

I agree with the squat and dive for sure. The appearance for that seems non existent mostly.

 

[Bonefork]

Without opinions the boards here whould be pretty redundent.

I like opinions too, especially considering mine are usually unpopular; however:

The act of simulating something generally entails representing certain key characteristics or behaviours of a selected physical or abstract system. (Source)

...I don't think vocabulary and word definitions are subjective, no need to change them temporarily to be inflammatory. Hitler was a philanthropist. No, really, it's like.. my opinion.

I have a lotus elise which even on tight corners understeers when you put the power down?

If you over-accelerate mid-turn in a RWD car (regardless of tuning settings) the tires will spin, lose traction, and slip out in the direction of the cars velocity, this doesn't happen much in GT5 so I assume this is what you're referring to; I don't know if this behavior is accurately portrayed, but it seems logical to me.

If you're coming from GT5, you may be in the habit of full throttling/braking, but Forza isn't down with that, and you have to apply varying levels of pressure to the triggers to keep the car in control through corners or off the line. Same with braking, usually around 80% is the sweet spot, just like most of the cars I've ever driven.

Funny how it goes to all that trouble of representing a key behavior of a tire and drivetrain's physical systems even though "It's not a sim."

 

[abaxas]

Thanks all.

I was starting to think I should just play forza in a pure arcade style, which in itself would be fun. But now at least I know what I 'think' is missing, will probably come later.

Ref GT -vs- Forza.

When I played forza on the original xbox, my view was. "This will be excellent when they actually finish the game". Which is exactly what I say about GT5.

I love racing games. The more the better (apart from that v8 superstars game, which was gash!)

 

[abaxas]

If you're coming from GT5, you may be in the habit of full throttling/braking, but Forza isn't down with that, and you have to apply varying levels of pressure to the triggers to keep the car in control through corners or off the line. Same with braking, usually around 80% is the sweet spot, just like most of the cars I've ever driven.

Funny how it goes to all that trouble of representing a key behavior of a tire's physical system even though "It's not a sim."

I come from GT4/GT5/ferrari challenge/supercar challenge/nfs etc etc.

And a lotus elise in real life!

Maybe I just need to delve deeper.

 

[Bonefork]

And a lotus elise in real life!

Small RWD cars are an extreme rarity where I live, so I haven't a clue. And Forza is maybe the only game I've ever played where you can stall or go into an immediate skid at the start of a race by over-gassing it, so I'm sure not all of it is terribly accurate... still, an inaccurate sim is still a sim.

P.S. be sure to turn off assists and bump the AI difficulty up. I suggest remapping the clutch and turning it on, too.

 

[abaxas]

Small RWD cars are an extreme rarity where I live, so I haven't a clue. And Forza is maybe the only game I've ever played where you can stall or go into an immediate skid at the start of a race by over-gassing it, so I'm sure not all of it is terribly accurate... still, an inaccurate sim is still a sim.

P.S. be sure to turn off assists and bump the AI difficulty up. I suggest remapping the clutch and turning it on, too.

First thing I do in any racing game. The only 'assist' I have on is the braking racing line until I get used to the braking points. That'll come off in a few hours time.

The AI is mean!

 

[SohnVonStig]

I like opinions too, especially considering mine are usually unpopular; however:

...I don't think vocabulary and word definitions are subjective, no need to change them temporarily to be inflammatory. Hitler was a philanthropist. No, really, it's like.. my opinion.

If you over-accelerate mid-turn in a RWD car (regardless of tuning settings) the tires will spin, lose traction, and slip out in the direction of the cars velocity, this doesn't happen much in GT5 so I assume this is what you're referring to; I don't know if this behavior is accurately portrayed, but it seems logical to me.

If you're coming from GT5, you may be in the habit of full throttling/braking, but Forza isn't down with that, and you have to apply varying levels of pressure to the triggers to keep the car in control through corners or off the line. Same with braking, usually around 80% is the sweet spot, just like most of the cars I've ever driven.

Funny how it goes to all that trouble of representing a key behavior of a tire and drivetrain's physical systems even though "It's not a sim."

Using wikipedia as a source. Sorry that just got me goin.

As to your critique of gt5, you are just plain incorrect - unless you were always using SRF. Car's oversteer in the direction of your velocity all the time, otherwise drifting wouldn't be possible And a lotus elise should have insane amounts of liftoff oversteer, mid corner oversteer, and power oversteer. That's just the way the car is built. The only time the car understeers is when you're coming into a corner too hot.

I am waiting for my copy of forza in the mail right now and am very curious to feel the physics differences. Sadly I won't get a true feel just because I have a g27, but it should still be fun with a controller 👍

 

[t.o.]

I am waiting for my copy of forza in the mail right now and am very curious to feel the physics differences. Sadly I won't get a true feel just because I have a g27, but it should still be fun with a controller 👍

It will be a fun with a controller but nowhere near the experience to base and opinion on against GT5 using a G27. Not saying that's what you intend to do but alot of posts here read as if guys are comparing GT5 with a controller versus GT5 and a wheel.

 

[SohnVonStig]

It will be a fun with a controller but nowhere near the experience to base and opinion on against GT5 using a G27. Not saying that's what you intend to do but alot of posts here read as if guys are comparing GT5 with a controller versus GT5 and a wheel.

I get what you're saying totally, I have no intention of comparing the two really. I'd love to be able to really compare the two physics engines, but that wouldn't really be fair unless I had a GT2 or another wheel that worked for both. I have shift 2 and f1 2010 for the ps3 as well and I find them all fun GT5 is the most realistic for me so far, unfortunately I won't really be able to make a judgment on Forza's reality simply because I don't have a wheel for it

 

[Bonefork]

As to your critique of gt5, you are just plain incorrect - unless you were always using SRF.

Now that you say that I realize that I never turned off many of the assists in GT5 because I suck at racing games with the PS3 controller. Smart thinking. Some day soon I'll have my wheel and not be so damn ignorant.

 

[t.o.]

I get what you're saying totally, I have no intention of comparing the two really. I'd love to be able to really compare the two physics engines, but that wouldn't really be fair unless I had a GT2 or another wheel that worked for both. I have shift 2 and f1 2010 for the ps3 as well and I find them all fun GT5 is the most realistic for me so far, unfortunately I won't really be able to make a judgment on Forza's reality simply because I don't have a wheel for it

I hear you. One thing I CAN compare for you, and might motivate you (hehe) is the Fanatec versus the G27. I have to lay this out there. Basing this TOTALLY on the immersion and feel of the wheel, nothing beats the Fanatec ON the 360 with Forza. I own a G27 also that's been boxed up as new, I used it for a few hours and ordered my Fanatec maybe weeks after getting the G27 and the Fanatec is great. Now I have to explain somethings. The Fanatec and the Microsoft wheel both have one motor for ForceFeed back and two additional motors for vibrations and other effects. It makes a difference. These two additional motors are only used, so it seems, by the 360 as it's part of their XID interface. What it basically boils down to is when using the G27 or the Fanatec on the PS3 you get a "hollow" feeling if you're used to playing on the 360. Because a whole layer and level of immersion is gone and all you have is one motor trying to replicate everything and alot of it can't be done with just one motor. This was a HUMUNGOUS disappointment for me when first playing GT5. Knowing what the wheel was capable of and what I was getting just hurt like hell. It's a big deal for me.

The other thing between the G27 and the Fanatec is that the Fanatec is belt driven versus the gears with the G27. By comparison, my G27 felt very "notchy" and toy-like compared to the Fanatec's smoothness with steering and FF. Put it like this, when I get out of my real car and get behind both these toys the one that feels less toy-like and closer to my car is the Fanatec. I HIGHLY suggest getting a Fanatec if you can. It ,in my opinion, adds SO much more to the racing experience. I just put this out there because had I had this information before hand I would have never bothered with the G27.

I still have it , was a thinking of using it as a backup if the Fanatec should break down and I need something to hold me over till it's fixed. Problem with that is I can only use it with GT5 and I haven't been playing that.

 

[IceMan PJN]

Actually I'm quite enjoying playing it. It's not a sim, but that doesnt mean I cant enjoy some good old fashioned arcade racing.

Gran Turismo is just as arcadey. *shrug* There's little difference between the two in regards to where they fall on the arcade/simulation spectrum. So, if you regard FM as an arcade racer, GT is an arcade racer, too. From the perspective of many hardcore PC simulation purists, GT is arcadey by comparison.

 

[SohnVonStig]

Now that you say that I realize that I never turned off many of the assists in GT5 because I suck at racing games with the PS3 controller. Smart thinking. Some day soon I'll have my wheel and not be so damn ignorant.

I don't blame you man, I can't drive for the life of me with a controller. I have a few friends who are just as fast as me on their controllers against my wheel and it's just mindboggling to me.

I hear you. One thing I CAN compare for you, and might motivate you (hehe) is the Fanatec versus the G27. I have to lay this out there. Basing this TOTALLY on the immersion and feel of the wheel, nothing beats the Fanatec ON the 360 with Forza. I own a G27 also that's been boxed up as new, I used it for a few hours and ordered my Fanatec maybe weeks after getting the G27 and the Fanatec is great. Now I have to explain somethings. The Fanatec and the Microsoft wheel both have one motor for ForceFeed back and two additional motors for vibrations and other effects. It makes a difference. These two additional motors are only used, so it seems, by the 360 as it's part of their XID interface. What it basically boils down to is when using the G27 or the Fanatec on the PS3 you get a "hollow" feeling if you're used to playing on the 360. Because a whole layer and level of immersion is gone and all you have is one motor trying to replicate everything and alot of it can't be done with just one motor. This was a HUMUNGOUS disappointment for me when first playing GT5. Knowing what the wheel was capable of and what I was getting just hurt like hell. It's a big deal for me.

The other thing between the G27 and the Fanatec is that the Fanatec is belt driven versus the gears with the G27. By comparison, my G27 felt very "notchy" and toy-like compared to the Fanatec's smoothness with steering and FF. Put it like this, when I get out of my real car and get behind both these toys the one that feels less toy-like and closer to my car is the Fanatec. I HIGHLY suggest getting a Fanatec if you can. It ,in my opinion, adds SO much more to the racing experience. I just put this out there because had I had this information before hand I would have never bothered with the G27.

I still have it , was a thinking of using it as a backup if the Fanatec should break down and I need something to hold me over till it's fixed. Problem with that is I can only use it with GT5 and I haven't been playing that.

When I bought the g27 I wanted a fanatec so badly but didn't want to wait till may for the shifter (seems stupid now that it's may ) and I was upgrading from a dfgt so the G27 feels smooth as silk in comparison. I most likely will end up selling my g27 and my dfgt when forza 4 comes out so I can buy a gt2 and play both games. I've only played my 360 once (got it from a friend) and that was so I could actually play COD with all my buddies. Funny thing though, everyone goes off to college and they kinda stop playing online

I'm a car guy who loves driving, not so much a "racer" (although my competitive side likes winning ) so I doubt forza will disappoint in any way, shape, or form.

 

[GTP_xX_HoBo_Xx]

The Lotus on forza has always been a fairly grippy car unless off throttle.

 

[abaxas]

Gran Turismo is just as arcadey. *shrug* There's little difference between the two in regards to where they fall on the arcade/simulation spectrum. So, if you regard FM as an arcade racer, GT is an arcade racer, too. From the perspective of many hardcore PC simulation purists, GT is arcadey by comparison.

I agree in part as I ain't played lots of the hardcore sims.

What GT does do is give a great approximation of weight distribution/movement and where the grip is. Infact it's over exaggerated, but this means you can feel more of that the car is doing.

One area what GT5 is horrible is in the braking zones. You should brake for a corner, ride with small amount of power to maintain grip, then power out. (RWD cars)

People just lunge into corners in GT5 with the brakes on, when in real life if you were going in too hot and had to brake hard during a corner, you'd be in the armco. This is where it all gets 'arcadey'.

To clarify my original point in FM3, I'm finding it hard to discover any weight movement and the grip accordingly in FM3. Hence why I feel it is more like and arcade game.

Could someone recommend me a car that will show me how this works in FM3?

 

[t.o.]

Could someone recommend me a car that will show me how this works in FM3?

Are you using a wheel or controller? To be honest with you you're not going to get the full effect of the game unless you have a wheel in your hands. But try the old Vette in the game.1967 Corvette Stingray 427 D Class

 

[abaxas]

Are you using a wheel or controller? To be honest with you you're not going to get the full effect of the game unless you have a wheel in your hands. But try the old Vette in the game.1967 Corvette Stingray 427 D Class

I'll get one bought, see where it gets me?

Can you still do the silly engine swap for the 1973 911 as in forza 1?

That was a beast.

 

[t.o.]

I'll get one bought, see where it gets me?

Can you still do the silly engine swap for the 1973 911 as in forza 1?

That was a beast.

Not sure, haven't tried it but I'm pretty sure you still can do it.

 

[ChadSpeed]

Every car in FM3 has the weight transfer and grip loss you are talking about, but FM3 seems to have more grip in general. Try a powerful car, rwd. I can feel the grip level of the tires by the vibrations of the controller, and in cockpit view can see the cars rise and dive with gas and brake. The game just dosen't have enough of the movement visually. It does take it into account. Try taking a newer Vette or even the Aston Martin DBS and coast through a corner and gas it. You will get oversteer if you can brake traction, if not you get understeer. I do agree GT seems more exaggerated in this area, but feels and looks better than FM. Heres hoping FM4 gets this right.

 

[TenEightyOne]

1) Where is the over steer? I have a lotus elise which even on tight corners understeers when you put the power down? Bug or is it just like that. I want to be able to steer with the rear (all assists off apart from abs)

2) Weight transfer - is there any as I cant see any suspension movement and it appears not to matter.

3) How the hell do I switch off that jsdkfhjskdhfj 'announcer'.

Actually I'm quite enjoying playing it. It's not a sim, but that doesnt mean I cant enjoy some good old fashioned arcade racing.

1) Oversteer as an aid for navigating corners is difficult in Forza 3 - once the tyres 'break' laterally they like to keep going sideways. It can be done with practice but not as easily as in GT5 *opinion*

2) Apparently weight transfer is in the 360fps routines, the visual representation isn't linked directly to the physics engine (hence body roll when throttling FF cars )

3) You can't turn him off completely. He's awful awful awful

Glad you're enjoying Forza 3, it's a great game - but GT5 spoiled it for me

 

[PzR Slim]

Glad you're enjoying Forza 3, it's a great game - but GT5 spoiled it for me

I actually think they spoiled each other for me. If you could take the best bits of both and wrap them up into one ultimate racing game, that would be some game.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I actually think they spoiled each other for me. If you could take the best bits of both and wrap them up into one ultimate racing game, that would be some game.

Actually, I wish I'D put that now

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Well, the weight transfer in forza 3 is better and more accurate than in gt5, but the traction is flawed in forza. Its almost impossible to launch a high hp rwd car without tsc, and wilthout spinning out. .

I agree with this part of your reply. The weight transfer is VERY good in Forza 3 and so are the physics. However the traction has always been an issue. Even a car with only around 200 hp and full racing slicks will burn the tires. One of my major complaints about F3 has always been the traction.
I am sure the traction will be corrected in F4. But the physics are very good and really dont need to be tweaked much at all. Thats one area Forza always shined along with many other areas.