A questionable move in our league race tonights. Opinions wanted.
- Thread starter Guffaluff
- 118 comments
- 4,306 views
- 7,755
- Yorkshire
- ScapeGoat4U
- WhippingBoy
While it was slow, it was most certainly not early enough imo. He only chose his line right near the end of the straight when he made contact with the other car & had no other choice but to stop turning. If you're still turning, you haven't chosen your line yet, nor have you given the person behind a fair chance to react to your chosen line in time.
"...manners dictate that he only has 1 move either left or right to choose his line into the next turn, this should be done early & slowly enough to give other drivers following behind a fair chance to react, lest there be an otherwise avoidable incident."
- 140
- Miami, FL
- KONTRAone
Your response pretty much covers most of my thoughts on this. In a situation like that, once you establish who's going inside and who's going outside the driver on the outside should move over so that everyone has more track to prevent incidents like so. The audi instead nudged further inside which, as you said, could only end in disaster.
Now with all that said, I still have to call it a racing incident because the renault driver should have seen the audi driver's intention to take the inside and gone the other way instead.
My conclusion: both driver's poor decisions led to the incident
- 2,553
- United States
The mentality I see here is that the Audi has the lead so the driver can do whatever they want.
I agree with @NevilleNobody. His assessment is correct.
I agree with @NevilleNobody. His assessment is correct.
- 3,603
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
I will paste this again because I guess people aren't reading it properly. I will also bold the end, which is EXTREMELY important here.
"...manners dictate that he only has 1 move either left or right to choose his line into the next turn, this should be done early & slowly enough to give other drivers following behind a fair chance to react, lest there be an otherwise avoidable incident."
The Renault's accident was 100% avoidable. The Renault could have backed out of the move, or braked sooner, or seeing the Audi move left, take a better line on the right.
Would I have made that move that the Audi made? No, because I would have tried to take advantage of the Renault's bad line, but the Audi chose to squeeze the inside and force the Renault into a compromising choice to make; back out or risk crashing. The Renault chose the latter.
dabz343
(Banned)
- 950
- United States
- dabz343
If it was my league, I would warn both drivers and try to lower the aggression and maintain an enjoyable vibe.
Technically, both were just racing hard, but the squeeze is an sshole tactic by the Audi and the Megane insisting on the inside line is just as desperate. You can analyze this incident as much as you want, but in the end you want to arrive at a decision that is clear and acceptable by both (and all) drivers.
The goal of stewards isn't to point a finger, reprimand, move on to the next incident (gets exhausting)...it's to provide general but principled guidelines that all drivers are able to follow. Ultimately you want your drivers to be able to sort it out (correctly) in the moment so that there is no incident and no homework for stewards.
Your opportunity here is to use this incident to clearly establish the balance your prefer in defending vs passing in your league...might be wise to consider the talent level to promote enjoyment and keep it simple. But whatever the conclusion, encourage cooler heads and you will have an excellent league.
Technically, both were just racing hard, but the squeeze is an sshole tactic by the Audi and the Megane insisting on the inside line is just as desperate. You can analyze this incident as much as you want, but in the end you want to arrive at a decision that is clear and acceptable by both (and all) drivers.
The goal of stewards isn't to point a finger, reprimand, move on to the next incident (gets exhausting)...it's to provide general but principled guidelines that all drivers are able to follow. Ultimately you want your drivers to be able to sort it out (correctly) in the moment so that there is no incident and no homework for stewards.
Your opportunity here is to use this incident to clearly establish the balance your prefer in defending vs passing in your league...might be wise to consider the talent level to promote enjoyment and keep it simple. But whatever the conclusion, encourage cooler heads and you will have an excellent league.
- 69
- United Kingdom
Megane at fault all day.
Audi left space (one car width on the inside) and moved in a predictable manner.
In hindsight it would have been better for the Megane to dummy going inside then take a swooping line around the outside, with the Audi too narrow. That, or still go inside and just brake on time.
Audi left space (one car width on the inside) and moved in a predictable manner.
In hindsight it would have been better for the Megane to dummy going inside then take a swooping line around the outside, with the Audi too narrow. That, or still go inside and just brake on time.
- 84,366
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
He appeared to maintain a constant right-to-left track speed for the entire length of the straight:
See the gap to the right increasing and to the left narrowing at an almost constant rate of half a car width a second from the very start of the straight? How much earlier and slower do you want?
If I'd been in the Megane I'd have laughed my arse off at the Audi - it's a funny move right out of the touring car book (the non-Plato edition), forcing the driver behind to make a choice to go for the narrowing gap or move to the outside for the undercut at the corner (where, doubtless, the Audi would be in the middle of the track, stopping you from switching back).
- 7,755
- Yorkshire
- ScapeGoat4U
- WhippingBoy
I wrote the GRG & can safely say that it's you who is misreading it. That sentence you quoted was regarding the driver in front & his responsibility to choose a line into the next turn early enough so the driver behind has time to react. The avoidable incident I mentioned is caused by the driver in front when he fails to choose a line early enough, for whatever reason, & thus causes a problem for the driver behind. It has nothing to do with the behind driver whatsoever, he is the victim in this instance.
The Megane had a great exit coming onto the straight, he had the speed to overtake before the end of the straight, & indeed the right to do so unimpeded. There was no reason for him to back out of anything. Had the Audi driver acted with respect, dignity & manners by choosing his line early enough, there would've been no incident.
Indeed, I didn't fail to see this. And, that is the entire problem with the Audi drivers maneuver; while he starts to turn early & slowly enough, he fails to finish turning early enough to give the behind driver time to react. That was the point I was making.
I love the BTCC, & watch it regularly. However, oftentimes the racing can hardly be described as gentlemanly. It's all about context; the GRG is about gentlemanly racing in Gran Turismo, which has nothing to do with the very aggressive driving usually found in the BTCC. And, whether or not the kind of driving showcased in the OP turns out to be acceptable or not is down to how the OP wants to run his series. He asked us for our opinions, & that's what we're giving him, different as they are...
- 3,050
- England
- kilesa4568
It's racing. You're expected to use a little gamesmanship to make things difficult and that's all the Audi's guilty of.
- 7,755
- Yorkshire
- ScapeGoat4U
- WhippingBoy
@kilesa4568 - You can't bend the rules if there are no rules to bend. The OP doesn't appear to have any rules for his series covering this type of manoeuvre or incident.
- 2,647
Side by side and the Audi keeps moving over to squeeze the Renault millimeters from the wall and it’s somehow the Audi is not at fault?
- 1,324
- Toronto
This is the Megane's fault for going off - he missed his braking point.
The Audi moved over to the middle of the track, making his intentions very clear that he wants to defend the inside of the track.
The Megane doubled down on the inside, and if I was the Audi I would do the exact same thing, squeeze him into very little space - the only difference is just before the braking point I would swing back out to the outside to get a better exit.
If I was the Megane, and committed to the inside, I wouldn't outbrake myself and then complain about the Audi's tactics because I forced myself into the inside of a driver who's clearly showing intentions of defending the inside.
That being said, it's a little early in the race to be defending that hard, and if I was the Megane (assuming I hit my braking point properly) I would very likely be squeezing the Audi right off the track if he tried to take that corner side by side with me as I'm not compromising my exit if you're going to compromise my entrance like that.
There is a certain level of respect drivers need to show each other on the track, and while the Audi very clearly didn't respect the Megane going up the inside, the Megane didn't respect the Audi's intentions to defend the inside - both drivers were being aggressive in their own defensive/aggressive driving styles fighting for position.
I wouldn't label this a racing incident as that would imply the Audi caused the Megane to go off or vice versa, the Megane was in control of his fate here and misjudged his braking.
This is no different than what I occasionally do which is move to the inside at the last second faking a dive bomb, but actually braking on time/early - the lead driver will often see me move to the inside and anticipate a dive bomb so they brake late and miss the apex, giving me the position for free.
Nothing about what the Audi did made the Megane go off track.
He put him into an awkward position in a slightly disrespectful manner - but ultimately he can't hit the brakes for the Megane, that's the Megane's responsibility - and he failed to do so (failed to do so on time I should say).
The Audi moved over to the middle of the track, making his intentions very clear that he wants to defend the inside of the track.
The Megane doubled down on the inside, and if I was the Audi I would do the exact same thing, squeeze him into very little space - the only difference is just before the braking point I would swing back out to the outside to get a better exit.
If I was the Megane, and committed to the inside, I wouldn't outbrake myself and then complain about the Audi's tactics because I forced myself into the inside of a driver who's clearly showing intentions of defending the inside.
That being said, it's a little early in the race to be defending that hard, and if I was the Megane (assuming I hit my braking point properly) I would very likely be squeezing the Audi right off the track if he tried to take that corner side by side with me as I'm not compromising my exit if you're going to compromise my entrance like that.
There is a certain level of respect drivers need to show each other on the track, and while the Audi very clearly didn't respect the Megane going up the inside, the Megane didn't respect the Audi's intentions to defend the inside - both drivers were being aggressive in their own defensive/aggressive driving styles fighting for position.
I wouldn't label this a racing incident as that would imply the Audi caused the Megane to go off or vice versa, the Megane was in control of his fate here and misjudged his braking.
This is no different than what I occasionally do which is move to the inside at the last second faking a dive bomb, but actually braking on time/early - the lead driver will often see me move to the inside and anticipate a dive bomb so they brake late and miss the apex, giving me the position for free.
Nothing about what the Audi did made the Megane go off track.
He put him into an awkward position in a slightly disrespectful manner - but ultimately he can't hit the brakes for the Megane, that's the Megane's responsibility - and he failed to do so (failed to do so on time I should say).
- 84,366
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Hence "right out of the touring car book (the non-Plato edition)". Mind you, Plato only learned his racecraft from Muller in the first place.
There's no mention in the linked guide (which I'm not aware of having any particular official standing in any case and have never seen before) that suggests the speed at which the single move should be completed, only that it must be made early and done slowly for a fair chance to react.
Well, he made the single adjustment to his steering angle and line down the straight at the start of the straight and did it slowly enough to cover four car widths in eight seconds. That's plenty of time to react so, according to the linked guide, it's all fine.
Even so, it depends on the rules that this Icelandic GT League operates under.
You shouldn't run a car out of or off the road. But then he didn't - there was space for a Megane plus a little bit more between the Audi and the limit of the track (mostly the pit wall) at all times.
The Megane chose to go for the narrowing gap rather than the widening one. It's a good idea - if you go for the inside you control the apex, but if you go for the outside to get the cutback, the Audi can brake later on the inside and prevent you from doing so - and if he'd hit his braking spot he'd be ahead.
I'd have zero objection to this move being pulled on me, because it's literally a touring car playbook move. Unless it was in a private series and there was a specific rule forbidding it, of course. If it was in a regular lobby, I might send the Audi a message to say how much I enjoyed the hard, fair racing.
- 282
- RichiPuppy
Megane is at fault. The Audi began moving to the inside early in the straight and before the Megane began to initiate a pass. The Megane then pushed for the inside line when he should have passed on the outside when the Audi began to take the inside line.
- 7,755
- Yorkshire
- ScapeGoat4U
- WhippingBoy
What linked guide are you referring to? If you're referring to the GRG; 1) I never claimed it had any official standing, so that point is irrelevant, & 2) speed has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not someone has finished their manoeuvre & chosen their line into the next turn early enough to give the driver behind a chance to react, so, again that's not relevant either. Red herrings & strawmans are not really my thing, thank you very much!
If you are referring to the GRG again, no, it's not fine according to it. The driver in front did not finish turning early enough, thus indicating to the behind driver what line he had chosen to stick to. I've made this point several times, but you seem to not be able to grasp the basic concept; I will not be restating it again.
Yes, I've said that already. The OP doesn't seem to have any rules for this type of problem, I Guess that's why he's here asking for advice.
I agree, but I am also of the opinion that one shouldn't squeeze a car to the inside or outside of the track either. Especially if one considers ones self a gentleman driver.
- 944
- Uk
- TheLeggacy
The Audi was in front and had every right to defend. It was a slow gradual move to the left the megane had chance to go round the other side but continues to push down the inside. At the point of contact the megane appears to steer into the the Audi, it’s very subtle but I’m not sure if he intended to nudge him or thought that the Audi was going to move over for the braking zone. The megane brakes very late and that’s just his fault, there was no action from the Audi that could have made that happen.
- 6,869
- Birmingham, UK
- GOTMAXPOWER
I'm not sure why the Renault driver is protesting that, I would be too embarrassed to draw any extra attention to it.
There was a full car width on the inside line but he/she totally forgot to brake.
There was a full car width on the inside line but he/she totally forgot to brake.
- 84,366
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Whatever it was you linked to. Some guide about racing etiquette.
As I pointed out to you, the linked guide gives no timeframe for finishing the manouevre (which is itself a pretty basic concept). It says it should be made early and done slowly to allow the driver behind time to react. I don't know how much more early than "the start of the straight", how much more slowly than "the entire length of the straight", or how much more time to react than "eight seconds" you'd want.1) I never claimed it had any official standing, so that point is irrelevant, & 2) speed has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not someone has finished their manoeuvre & chosen their line into the next turn early enough to give the driver behind a chance to react, so, again that's not relevant either. Red herrings & strawmans are not really my thing, thank you very much!
If you are referring to the GRG again, no, it's not fine according to it. The driver in front did not finish turning early enough, thus indicating to the behind driver what line he had chosen to stick to. I've made this point several times, but you seem to not be able to grasp the basic concept; I will not be restating it again.
Arguing that you think the move should have been finished earlier is fine, but that's not in your linked guide - so really the guide isn't much use as a reference in this situation.
In this situation the Megane was only squeezed because he chose to be. He chose to go left as the cars crossed the start line with the TT in the middle of the track and clearly moving right to left. And there was still half a car width to the left when he missed his braking point. He put himself into a gap that had already been closing for five seconds at that point - and yet still the TT left him enough room.
- 2,553
- United States
- 1,254
- Iceland
- Guffaluff
Wow, didn't expect to cause a rift here! 
I would like to really thank everyone for their feedback here, really helpful! I have decided that I'm not going to bother with this. After closesly inspecting the replay now (was too tired last night to really go into it) and after carefully taking all the feedback into account as well, I rule this as no foul play, although the Audi probably should've stopped forcing the Mégane to the left as they were side by side, but there was still room, albeit very little, and eventually the Mégane breaks too late. The Audi actually starts slowing down for the corner before the tiny rubbing.
Thanks all!
I would like to really thank everyone for their feedback here, really helpful! I have decided that I'm not going to bother with this. After closesly inspecting the replay now (was too tired last night to really go into it) and after carefully taking all the feedback into account as well, I rule this as no foul play, although the Audi probably should've stopped forcing the Mégane to the left as they were side by side, but there was still room, albeit very little, and eventually the Mégane breaks too late. The Audi actually starts slowing down for the corner before the tiny rubbing.
Thanks all!
- 1,324
- Toronto
Here is a perfect example.
Bottas made it clear he wanted to defend the inside, although he didn't move over all the way.
Ricciardo went for the inside, Bottas squeezed him a bit more, but ultimately left him just over a car width of space.
If Ricciardo outbrakes himself and goes off track - nobody would blame anybody except Ricciardo.
Difference here is Ricciardo made the corner, and ultimately made the pass.
Not sure how anybody here can blame the Audi - he acted predictably and fair and ultimately the mistake was made by the Megane.
Ricciardo and Bottas clip starts around 30 seconds.
- 1,424
- Kansas City/MO/US
- BallPtPenTheif
- BallPtPenTheif
Wow, didn't expect to cause a rift here!
I would like to really thank everyone for their feedback here, really helpful! I have decided that I'm not going to bother with this. After closesly inspecting the replay now (was too tired last night to really go into it) and after carefully taking all the feedback into account as well, I rule this as no foul play, although the Audi probably should've stopped forcing the Mégane to the left as they were side by side, but there was still room, albeit very little, and eventually the Mégane breaks too late. The Audi actually starts slowing down for the corner before the tiny rubbing.
Thanks all!
Out of curiosity what does your league consider to be ample space at the edge of the track when cars are overlapped? Do you consider a full car width or a half car width ample space?
Also, what would you league consider to be a reasonable overlap distance? Front wheel to front wheel, front wheel to mid chassis, or front wheel to rear axle?
I'm just curious about how typical leagues regard etiquette relative to F1 or FIAA rules.
- 1,254
- Iceland
- Guffaluff
Honestly? We don't have those rules down to that detail. We just have a general rule of common sense clean driving. It's a very tight group, we're on season 2 now and this was our 15th overall league race, and this is the first time there is a complaint post-race. So it's new territory for us.
2nd season started in January this year, and competition has grown tighter and there are multiple drivers now capable of taking it home every race. So I guess with tighter competition, the heat can turn up.
I might have to introduce some more detailed rules for racecraft other then "Clean racing". It has sufficed so far, but with stiffer competition, I might need to revisit and write up some more detailed rules/guidelines.
- 3,050
- England
- kilesa4568
Seeing as the Audi left space, albeit ever decreasing space, they're leaning pretty heavily on the general 'leave a car width' rule without breaking it. A bit naughty doing it against a friend but it's totally fair in a competitive race.
I think you'll struggle to think of a rule that outlaws or frowns on what happened in the race. Squeezing could never classed as breaking rules.
- 2,647
The only reason he didn’t run the other car off the road was because the Renault driver got out of his way! When you’re side by side, you’re equal. If the Audi driver has the right to squeeze his opponent then the Renault driver has the same right. So then your rules allow for cars to just barge each other?
- 736
- United States
While I agree that a warning would be all the penalty I can see being fair, I think the Audi's move was dirty. From what I saw, the Audi exited the corner,and was not going all the way to the outside curb, saw the Megane coming up, with speed and shifted right since it looked like the megane would run the outside, then shifted left as the megane pulled away from the curb towards the inside. Once the megane got some overlap, the Audi continued squeezing him, into the pit exit, and to the curb, moving further and further from the racing line. Maybe not illegal, but dirty racing anyways.
Edit: If the Megane had pulled along side and held his line parallel to the straight, as a proper racing line is, and the Audi had continued to squeeze, and made contact, whose fault would you say that is, the Megane who was only holding his line, or the Audi who was trying to force him to the curb?? I was always taught that the car ahead has the right of way, but moving to the inside half way down the straight with a car next to you is not a valid racing line.
Edit: If the Megane had pulled along side and held his line parallel to the straight, as a proper racing line is, and the Audi had continued to squeeze, and made contact, whose fault would you say that is, the Megane who was only holding his line, or the Audi who was trying to force him to the curb?? I was always taught that the car ahead has the right of way, but moving to the inside half way down the straight with a car next to you is not a valid racing line.
Last edited:
