A questionable move in our league race tonights. Opinions wanted.

  • Thread starter Guffaluff
  • 118 comments
  • 4,302 views

Which car is at fault here?

  • Megane is at fault

    Votes: 59 56.2%
  • Audi is at fault

    Votes: 16 15.2%
  • Both equal, racing incident

    Votes: 30 28.6%

  • Total voters
    105
Very low standart of racing by both drivers. For the Audi maybe not illegal, by very bad sportmanship and a cheap trick to force megane and not trying to prevent contact. Audi does not choose a racing line as there is no such line that would go across the straight like that. In real life Audi would get penalty for causing an accident the moment the cars would touch.

For the Megane.. well nothing wrong there spotmanship wise, but bad driving missing the brakes. Without contact megane would have won the place at curve #2 due to better line.
 
I dont see how people are blaming the Audi. It wasn't dirty, he wasn't on the racing line, yes, but when you're defending, there is no defined racing line.

How are people supposed to defend a position? According to this thread, you are to stay on the racing line with NO deviation and just let the car behind make a move.

The switch this in to a completely different scenario, let's say the Megane moved back towards the outside after the Audi started to move across. IF the audi moved back to the right it would have been illegal as the Megane was too close to make a second maneuver.
 
The only reason he didn’t run the other car off the road was because the Renault driver got out of his way!
Actually it's because there was still half a car width to the left and the Audi braked for the corner in the right place. It also looks like he straightened the wheel up, maintaining that space to the left.
When you’re side by side, you’re equal. If the Audi driver has the right to squeeze his opponent then the Renault driver has the same right.
The Audi driver started the manouevre five seconds before the Megane got even close to occupying any part of the space alongside him. The Megane chose to go into the gap that was narrowing to the left. You can literally see him decide, as the cars cross the line to start the next lap, which side to go...
So then your rules allow for cars to just barge each other?
Find where I advocate car-to-car contact and then come back to me with your "So...?" reinterpretation of it. This may help:
You shouldn't run a car out of or off the road. But then he didn't - there was space for a Megane plus a little bit more between the Audi and the limit of the track (mostly the pit wall) at all times.
I'll also add that by my "rules" (which aren't rules; they're how I drive. GT Sport doesn't really have rules) you shouldn't move your car to where another car already is or is inevitably going to be - which the Audi doesn't do either.
 
Very low standart of racing by both drivers. For the Audi maybe not illegal, by very bad sportmanship and a cheap trick to force megane and not trying to prevent contact. Audi does not choose a racing line as there is no such line that would go across the straight like that. In real life Audi would get penalty for causing an accident the moment the cars would touch.

For the Megane.. well nothing wrong there spotmanship wise, but bad driving missing the brakes. Without contact megane would have won the place at curve #2 due to better line.

How can you say it was bad sportsmanship by the Audi to squeeze him and not take a racing line?
The Megane wasn't on a racing line, and the Megane very clearly went for the inside when the Audi made it clear he wanted to defend the inside.
 
The problem is as i see it is most of the time when someone starts driving by rearview mirror like audi did , it ends up with the drifting car intentionaly ramming or hitting the car coming up for a pass.

To me the megain reacted like they thought the audi was going to wreck them on purpuse , that didnt happen, the megaine braked way late and missed any chance at turning.

If the renault had braked a bit earlier the audi would probably bounced off the renault and not made the turn .
 
Funny thing is that in the racing that I see, albeit mostly motorcycle racing, I can't recall any of this alleged gentlemanly racing ever taking place. I see riders and drivers doing what is in their own best interest with something that might be considered 'fair" only occurring, again, when it's in that competitor's best interest.

I've seen a corner conceded to an over/under move or some other such tactic where the person conceding has planned to retake the position. I have never seen someone simply go "Oh, you have a run on me? Well, then, by all means, here, please take this corner. No, no, I insist good sir."

Maybe I'm wrong and simply haven't seen enough in my 50 years, so please, show me a real life video of this "fair" play in action.
 
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How can you say it was bad sportsmanship by the Audi to squeeze him and not take a racing line?
The Megane wasn't on a racing line, and the Megane very clearly went for the inside when the Audi made it clear he wanted to defend the inside.
Audi was too late. If he would have been fast enough to change the line BEFORE megane was next to him it would have been clean defensive change of line and that would have given the megane a possibility to change line and try making the pass from the other side. Very cheap move by the Audi to wonder across the track like a senile blind monkey trying to write a sms while drivind.

Anyone saying he just kept the line - true, but BS.. he would have NEVER driven that kind of line if he wasnt blocking the megane.

Like said, theres no violation of rules here, but zero respect for the Audi driver. Smells like a move Vettel or Verstappen could pull, and thats the reason that ruins my respect for these two otherwise magnificent drivers.

Meganes biggest mistake was to let the audi driver provocate him to making an error. With that speed he should have just taken it easy and let the audi do the funny moves - he would have left that audi in the dust after next 2-3 corners.. something Verstappen does excepcionally well. Taking a special slow line turn in to corner to gain advantage on exit. Max uses that a lot when driving behind someone.

Funny thing is that in the racing that I see, albeit mostly motorcycle racing, I can't recall any of this alleged gentlemanly racing ever taking place. I see riders and drivers doing what is in their own best interest with something that might be considered 'fair" only only occurring, again, when it's in that competitor's best interest.

I've seen a corner conceded to an over/under move or some other such tactic where the person conceding has planned to retake the position. I have never seen someone simply go "Oh, you have a run on me? Well, then, by all means, here, please take this corner. No, no, I insist good sir."

Maybe I'm wrong and simply haven't seen enough in my 50 years, so please, show me a real life video of this "fair" play in action.
Actually you see it quite a lot. The higher the stakes are. In F1 its very common for the best drivers like Hamilton to give the spot to fight another battle - knowing risking a crash/damage by blocking is the 0pts worst case scenario. Of cource there are the infamous geniuses like Senna and schumacher who forced the other driver to either give room or crash.
 
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Audi was too late. If he would have been fast enough to change the line BEFORE megane was next to him it would have been clean defensive change of line and that would have given the megane a possibility to change line and try making the pass from the other side. Very cheap move by the Audi to wonder across the track like a senile blind monkey trying to write a sms while drivind.

Anyone saying he just kept the line - true, but BS.. he would have NEVER driven that kind of line if he wasnt blocking the megane.

Like said, theres no violation of rules here, but zero respect for the Audi driver. Smells like a move Vettel or Verstappen could pull, and thats the reason that ruins my respect for these two otherwise magnificent drivers.

I understand your point of view, I just think it's silly.

You're expecting the Audi to be respectful and be a gentleman - in a race.
Yet you don't hold the Megane to those same standards?

Audi broke 0 rules.
Yes the Audi wouldn't have driven like that unless the Megane was there - that's exactly why this is called defensive driving, he's trying to compromise his opponents speed through the corner in an attempt to maintain position.

I would say the Audi's defensive move could've been more definite, move over to the middle of the track with purpose - and if the Megane goes for the inside, move over more and cover him off.

The Megane could also have just taken the driving line that was gifted to him.

Either way - nobody broke any rules, there was very minor door contact and it was an aggressive overtake attempt and an aggressive defense of a position. Not a racing incident, and the Megane only has himself to blame.
 
You're expecting the Audi to be respectful and be a gentleman - in a race.
Yet you don't hold the Megane to those same standards?

Like i said - i dont think megane was any more wise or professional there. Both drivers taking unnecessary risk. Like watching hot headed rookies drive. Just that Audi was more in a position to let this be a safe clean pass and take the fight to next corners.

Unnecessary risk - reminds me of these.. and in situations like these you see the likes of Hamilton and Raikkonen to take the higher road. Avoid risk and take it back later. Just dont put Rosberg next to Hamilton - Nico really was able to bring the worst out of louis..:lol:


 
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You're expecting the Audi to be respectful and be a gentleman - in a race.
In a random lobby, surely not.
In a league where rules are set up for clean racing and respectful race craft? Yes.

However, after thinking it over. I think they're both being equally disrespectful towards each other with neither wanting to respect the others' lines. Had the Megane just let him slide his way to the left, he could have taken the opening to the right because the intentional move from the Audi would have left him with a ridiculously crappy entry point for the next turn. He could have very well made a pass at that point.
 
The golden rule is to leave a car width and the Audi did just that. The Megane was naive to fall for it as they had a lot of thinking time leading into the braking zone.

A run on someone isn't everything as you still have to pull off the pass. The Audi's leading and slowly and predictably chooses a line that will compromise the Megane. It's then up to them to complete the pass after the squeeze stops going into the brake zone. If they brake on time, this thread doesn't exist.
 
The renault still have around 1 meter on his left to avoid any contact resulting of the audi defensive move , he didn't use tis space , just wait for the contact like i've already said , didn't prejudiced him at all talking about braking distance.
 
Reminds me of Schumacher and Barrichello in Hungary, or Webber and Vettel in Malaysia, or Alonso and Vettel two years in a row in Italy.
 
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The Megane clearly chose the inside line... while the Audi remained unclear in its committed line... any continued move from the Audi after this, towards the inside is certainly dickheadish.
Defending is making a move and sticking to it... not making one long gradual sweeping motion to run your competitor out of space.
Last year in an F1 race Paul di Resta weighed in on an incident eerily similar to this and noted something to the effect of... make a clear an concise move to state your position and stick with it, meandering a full track width is not in the spirit of the regulations... when a move takes the length of a straightaway to complete it's not really clearly stating your intentions, and leaves your competitor guessing at what you are doing. Dangerous.

I wonder how this conversation would be going if the Megane let the Audi "pit" itself by continuing to impede the Megane with it's drift across the track?

And yes, the Megane should have backed out, or hit his marks, but, that's not what is in question.
What is in question is if it's ok to use an entire straight to gradually run your opponent out of room?
In my opinion you make a move and stick to it.
This was sly, and intentional, and rather than admit having given up a run, and trying to race it back, the Audi played this game.
Did the Audi block? No.
Did the Audi run the Megane off the track? No.
Did the Audi cause the Megane to miss the braking point? No.
Did the Audi play within the spirit of standard/established racing rules/etiquette ? No.
 
Very unsportmanlike from the Audi. Not a league I would enjoy racing in.

...manners dictate that he only has 1 move either left or right to choose his line into the next turn, this should be done early & slowly enough to give other drivers following behind a fair chance to react, lest there be an otherwise avoidable incident."

I interpret that as completing your defensive move early. Drifting accross the straight is ill mannered.

I would take the outside anyway, much easier to trigger a penalty if the other car tries anything dirty in the corner.
 
...
In a league where rules are set up for clean racing and respectful race craft? Yes.

Managing the other racers is part of race craft. Just like pressuring a driver into a mistake is race craft, or faking a move up the inside.

However, after thinking it over. I think they're both being equally disrespectful towards each other with neither wanting to respect the others' lines. Had the Megane just let him slide his way to the left, he could have taken the opening to the right because the intentional move from the Audi would have left him with a ridiculously crappy entry point for the next turn. He could have very well made a pass at that point.

See, I don't grasp this "disrespect" thing. This is a race, not a fancy dress ball. When reviewing the videos of greatest motor sports passes of all time, I don't believe the respect level of the people involved is ever a topic of discussion.
 
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

When one driver is completely ahead of another on a straight, they are permitted to make a move in one direction. This move can be of any size, within the track limits, and the move can be made as slowly or as quickly as the driver likes — they can jink suddenly to one side or they can spend an entire straight gradually shifting across the track.

The Audi decided to spend the entire straight, simple as that.

When a defender makes their one move, the distance and closing speed of the attacker may also be considered by the stewards. If the attacker is closing quickly and is only a short distance behind, then they may not have time to evade a sudden move into their path. It is at the stewards’ discretion whether or not to punish late defensive moves under sporting regulation 20.5.

There was no sudden move, the Audi was going towards the inside in a straight line for the entire time. If you take the screenshots @Famine provides and draw a vertical line right through the middle you'll see it.

Things change when there is any overlap between the cars, because lateral movement could cause a collision. If two cars have any parts alongside one another, each driver must respect the space occupied by the other car. It does not matter who is ahead, nor how far they are ahead, they may not initiate a move into the other car. Both drivers have the right to continue driving in a straight line unimpeded.

Like it or not, no moves were initiated by the Audi - other than the one in the beginning of the straight when he chose the trajectory towards the inside while being well ahead and thus free to choose his line. Both cars were travelling in a straight line, one of them parallel to the racing line, the other not - but at no point did the Audi turn into the Renault. In fact nobody turned anywhere.

The Audi left easily enough room to the inside, the Renault chose not to use it. It could even be argued that the Renault drove into the side of the Audi but that's stretching it. My call would be a 50/50 racing incident, nothing happened during the actual contact so no penalties needed, the Renault crashed on his own.
 
Managing the other racers is part of race craft. Just like pressuring a driver into a mistake is race craft, or faking a move up the inside.



See, I don't grasp this "disrespect" thing. This is a race, not a fancy dress ball. When reviewing the videos of greatest motor sports passes of all time, I don't believe the respect level of the people involved is ever a topic of discussion.
There was a very specific word used, right before race craft, to better illustrate exactly what my point was.

This isn’t the greatest hits of real life motor sports and what that entails. This is a league with specific rule sets that was stated to race clean and respect your fellow racer. Disrespect may be a little strong, but they both definitely weren’t willing to adhere to any of what had been specified by the OP.

I’d sign up for leagues to get away from instances like that, to be honest. I’d rather it be a close, fast, race while respecting others lines than getting blockedpushed for potentially being faster than someone. At the same time, I likely wouldn’t even have attempted that.
 
Megane bottled it himself by taking the regular - bit late braking point while being on the least optimal line possible to enter the corner. Definitely no penalties.

What the Audi did was perfectly legal. He didn't change his line - driving in diagonal accross a straight from the get go is a valid unique line. And in real life he would still be allowed one defensive move (changing his line), and going back to the racing line. So even if he steered a bit more towards the inside at some point, it can't be counted as illegal. The amount of space he left at the end was a bit overdone imho but Megane still had enough space and wasn't pushed off track due to the rubbing.

There nothing unsportsmanlike in this. It's just close and hard fought racing. I like my races to be clean, but I also hate it when people think they only have the right to let others go by.
 
Megane bottled it himself by taking the regular - bit late braking point while being on the least optimal line possible to enter the corner. Definitely no penalties.

What the Audi did was perfectly legal. He didn't change his line - driving in diagonal accross a straight from the get go is a valid unique line. And in real life he would still be allowed one defensive move (changing his line), and going back to the racing line. So even if he steered a bit more towards the inside at some point, it can't be counted as illegal. The amount of space he left at the end was a bit overdone imho but Megane still had enough space and wasn't pushed off track due to the rubbing.

There nothing unsportsmanlike in this. It's just close and hard fought racing. I like my races to be clean, but I also hate it when people think they only have the right to let others go by.

It's not hard fought racing, it's dumb racing allowing the rest of the field to catch back up by using the worst lines possible into the corner. There are still 12 laps to go! Perhaps in the final corner it would be excusable, yet here there is a ton of time left to pass the other car again if he even managed to complete the pass. There was no need for this action.

I assume it was a race with pit stops and fuel use? Not a smart move from the Megane either to try to get into first, draft and save fuel with 12 laps to go. Poor race craft on both, it looks like sprint race behavior instead of a 29 lap endurance race.

Anyway it looks very mundane to what's going on at the daily B between 6 and 8 pm :lol:
 
Ultimately, the Magane is complaining because of what happened after the contact. He braked too late and that was his fault.

Audi touched him, but that didn't affect the Magane's ability to brake. In a normal race, there is random contact here and there and noone gets mad unless it causes a bigger incident. The "bigger" incident here is the Magane braking way too late.
 
You can't assume the move was dumb without knowing the full story behind the race. Looks like the Audi was on worse tyres, probably different strategies. If 3rd is far - and he looks pretty far since it takes nearly one full lap for him to overtake the Megane with engine damage - then Audi guy has all interest in defending, even if it costs him some time, because his direct opponent will lose the advantage of fresh tyres, and that might be the difference which allows him to keep the lead at the end of the race. Plus, the opponent here actually overpressured himself and crashed, so the Audi is now perfectly safe.

The Megane also has all interest of trying to pass as soon as he can, moreso if he's on better tyres, getting stuck behind someone on a less agressive strategy is the worst thing than can happen in that kind of race. Plus, fuel saving is not that effective when using low depletion rates - especially if there's no further pit stop planned. Yes, sometimes, holding off or letting someone overtake you is better in the grand scheme of things, but not always. This is not the case here as 3rd is not a threat and there's nobody those 2 can catch up in front. Gotta try to get every opportunity you can have to pass that guy before you run out of them.

Even if the battle went on and the moves were making them lose enough time over 12 laps to allow the other guys to catch up, those 12 remaining laps would be more than enough for at least one of them to realize it and just let go for a while to build enough margin. If you're expecting everyone to just hold a truce until last lap and not do this kind of things, then don't be surprised if you run into problems in races.

I can understand why the Megane move looks dumb though, when you look at where the cars are going into braking zone, the Megane is not necessarily in a strong position to remain in front after the hairpin. I would have tried to sneak into that outside gap myself to try and get a run for the inside line into turn 2 and park it on the apex.
 
This thread reminds me of this.
Both drivers were penalised if I remember correctly.

Short version incident only


Nice find, definitely worth watching the lead up to the last lap...generally speaking, actually a pretty good example of max aggression allowable (but not the incident).

Lot's of lessons in this vid, if only some on this thread would just stfu and contemplate the nuances for a change instead of jumping into a final decision and becoming entrenched.
 
At fault for what? The contact? Neither, it's a racing incident. The Megane driving off? Megane's fault, he broke too late. Simple.

I voted Megane at fault for the end result of the incident, but really neither did anything wrong, the megane just made a mistake.
 
I don't even think there's anything to review here. The Megane driver got distracted in the moment and forgot to brake on time. They're mad about it because obviously making a mistake can't be their own fault, and they complained about it.

The Audi left space for the pass, people that consider this a block are out of their minds.
 
The Audi left space for the pass, people that consider this a block are out of their minds.

I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s a block, but to me it’s clear that the Audi driver did not want to be passed and took every means necessary to cleverly go into a gray area of what is and isn’t consider good race craft. Sure, they’re technically allowed to cross the track like that and they technically allowed just enough room for the Megane, but they purposely tried to do things in a slow and unpredictable manner as to not make their efforts obvious.
 
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