A simple SR fix

  • Thread starter Voodoovaj
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Voodoovaj

Voodoovaj

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voodoovaj
So, rather than posting in one of the myriad of SR rage threads, I thought this needed it's own so that it can be more easily seen and digested by the devs (because, yes, of course they read this stuff, whether they act on it or not).

Here is the problem in a nutshell, SR is a prestige item with no real in game value and, therefore, no reverence. (before debating me on this, just read on). The current tiers assume people will play nice and they are extremely forgiving. However, you can be a terrible offender and still be an S driver. As the ranking exist now, they bunch everyone at the top.

So, this is what we know. SR is on a scale of 0-99 points.

Here are the CURRENT tiers
S - 80-99
A - 60-79
B - 40-59
C - 20-39
D - 10-19
E - 0-9

As you can see, being a S class driver is more inclusive than being an E class driver, which is silly!

Given the ease with which you get SR and the relative ease to retain it, it's not hard ot be a bad driver and stay in the S range. Looking at my own stats (http://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=1197461) I see that quitting a race (usually to take a phone call...I work from home) is more of a hit on my sportsmanship than the penalties are, which is silly. Again, looking at my ratings, you can see the BIG dips that come from when I have gotten into shoving matches with other drivers.

Here is what I propose.

1 - You lose 2 points of SR for every second of penalty you get in the game. You gain it back as you do now.
2 - Re-score the tiers. (see below)
3 - Bar people of lower ranks from participating in certain dailies. Race 1, all ranks. Race 2, B and higher. Race 3, A and higher. Conversely, the FIA races could be the events that require minimum ranking of B and A. There needs to be a real reason why your rank should be high. Right now, the only real drawback of a low rank is more chaotic racing, but if you are a fast enough driver, it's actually a benefit because you can start up front and challenge for wins more often.

S - 90-99 - 10 point gap, not 20. Ergo, 5 seconds of penalty and you will lose your S rating. Everyone better keep their car on track as well.
A - 80-89 - Again, a 10 point tier. If you are in S and you gain ten seconds of penalty, you are dropping into B
B - 70-79 - Even B is a tight group.
C - 50-69
D - 30-49
E - 0-29

By implementing this, it starts to put a premium on being in the higher tiers. If players cannot play the dailies, they will start minding their manners on track. Even a whiff of contact could knock you out of being in a clean group, ergo, people should put a premium on their SR rating.

This may be extreme, but it's an open discussion. Will it work? I don't know but I know that the current system still allows too much leeway for aggression.
 
Voodoovaj
So, rather than posting in one of the myriad of SR rage threads, I thought this needed it's own so that it can be more easily seen and digested by the devs (because, yes, of course they read this stuff, whether they act on it or not).

Here is the problem in a nutshell, SR is a prestige item with no real in game value and, therefore, no reverence. (before debating me on this, just read on). The current tiers assume people will play nice and they are extremely forgiving. However, you can be a terrible offender and still be an S driver. As the ranking exist now, they bunch everyone at the top.

So, this is what we know. SR is on a scale of 0-99 points.

Here are the CURRENT tiers
S - 80-99
A - 60-79
B - 40-59
C - 20-39
D - 10-19
E - 0-9

As you can see, being a S class driver is more inclusive than being an E class driver, which is silly!

Given the ease with which you get SR and the relative ease to retain it, it's not hard ot be a bad driver and stay in the S range. Looking at my own stats (http://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=1197461) I see that quitting a race (usually to take a phone call...I work from home) is more of a hit on my sportsmanship than the penalties are, which is silly. Again, looking at my ratings, you can see the BIG dips that come from when I have gotten into shoving matches with other drivers.

Here is what I propose.

1 - You lose 2 points of SR for every second of penalty you get in the game. You gain it back as you do now.
2 - Re-score the tiers. (see below)
3 - Bar people of lower ranks from participating in certain dailies. Race 1, all ranks. Race 2, B and higher. Race 3, A and higher. Conversely, the FIA races could be the events that require minimum ranking of B and A. There needs to be a real reason why your rank should be high. Right now, the only real drawback of a low rank is more chaotic racing, but if you are a fast enough driver, it's actually a benefit because you can start up front and challenge for wins more often.

S - 90-99 - 10 point gap, not 20. Ergo, 5 seconds of penalty and you will lose your S rating. Everyone better keep their car on track as well.
A - 80-89 - Again, a 10 point tier. If you are in S and you gain ten seconds of penalty, you are dropping into B
B - 70-79 - Even B is a tight group.
C - 50-69
D - 30-49
E - 0-29

By implementing this, it starts to put a premium on being in the higher tiers. If players cannot play the dailies, they will start minding their manners on track. Even a whiff of contact could knock you out of being in a clean group, ergo, people should put a premium on their SR rating.

This may be extreme, but it's an open discussion. Will it work? I don't know but I know that the current system still allows too much leeway for aggression.
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I agree the system could be better, but I'm not sure about this proposal.

Banning drivers from races due to SR would discourage some people from playing. That's the exact opposite of PD/Sony's goals. Any adjustments have to weigh the consequences as well.

Changing the tiers may effectively do nothing. Currently there might be a race with everyone at SR S, change the tiers and now you have the same drivers but half have an SR A. No difference unless you now break it up into races with less drivers in each.

My opinion, is that penalties during races should be harsher. One possibility is damage turned up so collisions make cars much slower or harder to drive.

Another option, give some other reward for clean races. The current credit/point rewards aren't much of an incentive. Maybe give a bonus car for every 5 clean races in a row.
 
With dailies it shouldn't be changed much as changes like this would just discourage people from playing, but for FIA races and perhaps higher level races like the Gr1/GrX class if PD ever adds them, a more strict penalty system should be implemented.
 
I mostly like it, but, penalties need addressed for me to fully buy in.
2 examples from my 1 race last night...
2 cars wrecking at high speed, one sideways the other nearly fully turned around, headed off track fast/hard, ghosted... and, as I and a couple others go screaming by the carnage, on the opposite side of the track, and with them now in the grass - blamb 5second penalty and Sr hit... assume my fellow racers in close proximity received the same.
Same race, going down the inside as 2 cars battled way off to the side, very slow from wagging the tail, I've got 2 tires on the curb and one car decides to turn down on me... blamb shunted off the inside and into the wall... 2second penalty and SR hit... that's a pretty hard hit to shove some one off the inside of a hairpin.
Still finished 9th with a #16 on the door and +400 Dr. points and a blue S... but still the penalties system seems to me... silly.

edit to add, not complaining... just sayin'.
 
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You fail to address the problem that Daily C races will give you 13 SR points, while A and B only max 4. It's easy to stay at SR.S in the C races while still ramming 5 cars off the road every race. In A and B one contact with penalty can already get you a red rating. It should be the same no matter the length of the race and it will be a it harder to maintain SR.

SR up should also only be giving for clean sectors in close proximity to other cars. Simply driving behind or up front is not a challenge. Every couple corners where you get within 0.2 sec of another car without touching can give you SR up instead of for simply staying on the road for a sector.

However SR.S is already such a small group Matchmaking is failing. Putting DR.S to DR.D together in races to fill up the room with 5+ sec in best lap times between cars. I got bored of always having cars with +2 sec faster lap times in the race so I lowered my SR to B to get tighter matchmaking. And honestly, the racing isn't all that different than at SR.S. Actually it's hard to stay at SR.B and not drift back up again. short cuts help... (Why do you get best lap with a shortcut, isn't that a bug?)
 
I don't think excluding lower DR players from races is fair at all. They've paid their money and should have the same choice of race as anyone else. With real racing, it's a perfect idea. Console racing, it's very discriminatory.

You're also forgetting all about racing incidents with your scoring. I've been collateral damage in a lot of peoples shunts and awarded penalties, even though I've done everything (feasibly) possible to avoid them.

If the threads about contact on this forum are anything to go by though, the SR will always be questionable for them but as someone who's attitude is 'once bitten, twice shy' on any contact, I find it works perfectly. If you're overly aggressive and prefer pride to the fall, you'll always find fault with the ratings.

Accidents happen when you're pushing, whatever your level, so it's down to the public to be more realistic with their skill level and adjust to the SR that's already in place. If you get a drop, it's no big deal as you'll soon be back to your true level based on how you drive.
 
Effectively I think the stratification of the ranking you propose already happens to an extent. If you are a SR 99 I am pretty sure you are more likely to get matched with other 99's. I don't think it is a matter of being an "S" you just get matched with other "S's" regardless of what number they are carrying.
 
Sven Jurgens
It should be the same no matter the length of the race and it will be a it harder to maintain SR.
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Longer races also give more opportunities for mistakes as well. Saying that driving 4 laps clean is the same as driving 10 clean really has no merit. Much more of a challenge to string together 10 totally clean full pace race laps than to only do the same for 4 laps so the rewards should be higher.
 
gmaki
Effectively I think the stratification of the ranking you propose already happens to an extent. If you are a SR 99 I am pretty sure you are more likely to get matched with other 99's. I don't think it is a matter of being an "S" you just get matched with other "S's" regardless of what number they are carrying.
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I know for a fact that is not the case. You get matched with SR players either within 1 full rank of yours, the rest of the matching comes from DR.

So, if you are an SR A - you could be in a room with SR S or SR B, but you will never be in a room with both since the SR S will never be matched with the SR B

For the most part, the matching tries to mimic the single player with a few hot-shoes at the front, a bunch of equal players in the middle, and cannon fodder at the rear. It's not always the case, but it is very often this way.

kilesa4568
You're also forgetting all about racing incidents with your scoring. I've been collateral damage in a lot of peoples shunts and awarded penalties, even though I've done everything (feasibly) possible to avoid them.
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True, but these incidents are less frequent when you have more careful players together and more frequent when there is a bunch of people that don't care. I've been rammed from behind plenty of times by aggressive drivers and forced into others. That initial contact should never have happened.

BTW, I am not saying this is a perfect system. I just wanted a productive discussion to try and come up with a fix because, right now, too many careless people are grouped with the careful ones.

Example - Today, in the Bathhurst race, I did what is globally considered good form. I forced the player behind me to choose a side, then I made my one racing move. I was in the middle of the back straight, and I saw him going to the left, so I started to drift to the left (drift, not swerve, slow drift). Now, if I were the trailing player, I would have taken the opportunity to scoot up the right, especially considering he was in the draft and considering the next corner is a right. Instead, he insists on sticking it up between me and the grass, there's contact...he's still foot to the floor (wouldn't you back out of it at this point?). I slide over to the right...more contact. Then he loses it and I end up being the bad guy in his eyes (no penalties btw). Should I have even been in the same room with a guy who drives that way? Likely not.
 
I agree SR should be tighter, it should be harder to be SR S - however, more has to be done to adjust the penalty system before that is fair.

Too many penalties for "passing" under yellow.
No penalties for diving inside lines on corners and "gently" pushing your opponent off the track. (Yes rubbing is racing, but diving inside me, then "rubbing" me off the track because you didn't slow down enough to take the inside line is not racing it's cheating).
Still too many -SR ticks for being on the receiving end of contact.
 
Sean Renon
No penalties for diving inside lines on corners and "gently" pushing your opponent off the track. (Yes rubbing is racing, but diving inside me, then "rubbing" me off the track because you didn't slow down enough to take the inside line is not racing it's cheating).
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This one bugs me the most to be on the outside and being pushed off your racing line but you are the one that ends up getting the orange SR sector and sometimes a penalty to boot.

If any one things needs to be corrected this is the main one in my opinion as it is by far the most abused.
 
PD faces the same dilemma as any other dev hoping to encourage fairplay and that is the tradeoff between penalizing players who don't play fair and discouraging them from participating by doing so excessively. The more punitive you are and the harder it is to progress as a result, the cleaner the racing will be for those that make it through and the more dicouraging it'll be for casual and less skilled players mixed in among the obvious trolls we are tring to catch. PD is obviously leaning towards not discouraging anyone as best they can and I think that's why you'll never see damage as a consistent thing in Sport Mode and why I don't think they'll change the SR system other than very minor tweaks. It's just going to be seen as too punitive and unfair to casual players and without them the online is dead in the water.

What you suggest will work and there have been other ideas thrown about that will also work. But PD isn't in the fairplay business they are here to sell games and get people playing online and anything that will impede that won't likely get much consideration.
 
Is there data showing the number of players in each level? I doubt PD will think there's a problem with SR unless one or more levels become overpopulated relative to the player pool. It's possible that PD currently think there's only enough players for four levels (for now and the immediate future), and that's the reason D and E are under utilised at the moment. This could change in future patches, but only if matchmaking isn't negatively affected by reduced pool sizes.
 
You get ranked by SR numbers not letters. If you are SR 78 then you will be matched within a range around 78 (probably with A and S) , and like wise if you are SR 72 then the same will happen and you will be matched with A and B. So the proposed adjustments to the SR rank scale is pointless except to reduce the number of people with A and S in their profiles.
 
Perhaps the friendliness to the novice needs looking at in the game. There's far too much ghosting going on in the lower ranks and they're learning very little about spatial awareness because of it. They can still get close races based on DR but with less ghosting, their decisions will have more impact (pun intended) and they'll have to learn more about racing etiquette if they yearn for cleaner races. If they can't get out of the lower ranks, they'll know why.

Woodybobs
Is there data showing the number of players in each level? I doubt PD will think there's a problem with SR unless one or more levels become overpopulated relative to the player pool. It's possible that PD currently think there's only enough players for four levels (for now and the immediate future), and that's the reason D and E are under utilised at the moment. This could change in future patches, but only if matchmaking isn't negatively affected by reduced pool sizes.
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https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/your-dr-sr-progress-tracker-provided-by-kudosprime.372590/

There are a lot of stats for the game logged further down the kudosprime page.
 
I like @Voodoovaj's breakdown of SR. I was thinking of something nearly identical last night. I'd also like to see no penalty for leaving a race. More so that other drivers who do poor, leave, giving me a greater margin of victory. While at the same time, those that quit tend to drive dirty providing a cleaner race for everyone. That tier structure in the OP does provide some amount of forgiveness, but really with how easy it is to rack up SR, if you dipped to like 88 for a race, you'd almost certainly get it back to 90 again barring some catastrophe (can't help that sometimes).


Jerome
 
Jump_Ace
I'd also like to see no penalty for leaving a race.
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So basically if you are placed in a lobby that does not grid you near the front with a chance to win then just quit the race and try the lobby lotto for the next go round or if you blow a corner and drop 10 places then quitting would the smart thing?

If that were the case we would probably have many races that halfway through the race that 50% of the starters would have left the race.

You hit the enter button you and all other entrants are agreeing to race in the event until it is over and failure to do so penalizes you as it should.
 
VFOURMAX1
So basically if you are placed in a lobby that does not grid you near the front with a chance to win then just quit the race and try the lobby lotto for the next go round or if you blow a corner and drop 10 places then quitting would the smart thing?

If that were the case we would probably have many races that halfway through the race that 50% of the starters would have left the race.

You hit the enter button you and all other entrants are agreeing to race in the event until it is over and failure to do so penalizes you as it should.
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If they want to quit cause they didn't win and couldn't cheat to win, that is fine by me. Makes the race more enjoyable regardless of how many participants. Because of the broken SR system in place now, priority one is clean races no matter the cost. If you blow a corner and drop 10 places you either A) need more practice or B) you got punted SEVERELY. Why stay in a room like that? It's not fun and to get penalized for leaving a bad room is awful.


Jerome
 
Sven Jurgens
You fail to address the problem that Daily C races will give you 13 SR points, while A and B only max 4.
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Really? I've repeatedly gained or lost 6pt and 7pt to SR exclusively doing Race A for 169 races now. I've lost 15pt on one occasion, and have gained 6pt and 7pt in two separate Race A races today alone...

Anyway, it should be a bell curve. 33% of drivers in C, 22% in B and D, 11% in A and E. S should be the top 1-2% of A.

You could do that as:
S: 98-99
A: 89-97
B: 67-88
C: 34-66
D: 12-33
E: 1-11

Or have it actively comparing every driver's score so that each category has that percentage of SR scores by rank in it.
 
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Jump_Ace
you got punted SEVERELY. Why stay in a room like that? It's not fun and to get penalized for leaving a bad room is awful.
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Because that is RACING.

Sometimes things ago according to plan sometimes not so much so. All competitive sports have their ups and downs.

Ever heard of the Thrill of victory and the agony of defeat? Part of sportsmanship is whether winning or losing is to do your best until the end of the contest, not until you are not having fun or do not have a chance to win.
 
Famine
Really? I've repeatedly gained or lost 6pt and 7pt to SR exclusively doing Race A for 169 races now. I've lost 15pt on one occasion, and have gained 6pt and 7pt in two separate Race A races today alone...
Anyway, it should be a bell curve. 33% of drivers in C, 22% in B and D, 11% in A and E. S should be the top 1-2% of A.
You could do that as:
S: 98-99
A: 89-97
B: 67-88
C: 34-66
D: 12-33
E: 1-11

Or have it actively comparing every driver's score so that each category has that percentage of SR scores by rank in it.
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Personally, I still like this best...
Shottah072
E 0-29
D 30-49
C 50-69
B 70-84
A 85-94
S 95-99
And everyone should start at E.
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I personally try and race in a manor that allows me to be a gentlemanly 99/99, but I recognize 5pts might come from an incident that was out of ones control... therefore... 5 point spread at S, and, prove yourself in working out of the "basement" in a parabolic fashion.

edit, parobolic is inverse of what I meant... help me
 
Jump_Ace
If they want to quit cause they didn't win and couldn't cheat to win, that is fine by me. Makes the race more enjoyable regardless of how many participants. Because of the broken SR system in place now, priority one is clean races no matter the cost. If you blow a corner and drop 10 places you either A) need more practice or B) you got punted SEVERELY. Why stay in a room like that? It's not fun and to get penalized for leaving a bad room is awful.


Jerome
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That would completely destroy the rating system. If you can leave and not lose any rating then why would anyone who is in the back half of the field stay? They know they're going to lose DR if they finish in that position so if they're unlikely to make up a place then they will just leave and stay the same DR. Or if they've had a few crashes and penalties and don't think they can make up their SR, then they can leave and not have any penalty.

What that leads to is no one ever losing rating because anyone in a position to lose rating will just leave, so everyone would just gain rating or leave and it would make the rating system pointless and muddle the rubbish drivers in with a good ones more than it does now.

@Voodoovaj Losing 2 SR points for every second of penalty is a really bad idea with the current penalty system as a small corner cut, which is easy to do accidentally can get you up to a 10 second penalty depending on the corner, so it makes no sense for people to lose quite substantial amounts of SR for such trivial things. Maybe time penalties incurred through contact only.

Also barring people from certain dailies is a terrible idea as the point of the matchmaking system is to put you with people of similar rank, so there is no need to separate the daily races out based on what rank you are. If I had SR A I wouldn't think, best to race 3 so I don't come across any SR Cs because you should be matched with them anyway.
 
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VFOURMAX1
Longer races also give more opportunities for mistakes as well. Saying that driving 4 laps clean is the same as driving 10 clean really has no merit. Much more of a challenge to string together 10 totally clean full pace race laps than to only do the same for 4 laps so the rewards should be higher.
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It's harder to drive 4 laps clean as there is less time to overtake. In 10 lap races people spread out more along the track, less chance of incidents. The problem is that the current SR system is a mismatch between penalties for hitting people and the ability to stay on the road. It's comparing apples with oranges.

Voodoovaj
I know for a fact that is not the case. You get matched with SR players either within 1 full rank of yours, the rest of the matching comes from DR.

So, if you are an SR A - you could be in a room with SR S or SR B, but you will never be in a room with both since the SR S will never be matched with the SR B
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That actually happened to me today. I was SR.B, and an SR.S came in the room. We both left SR.A though. Generally it's pretty tight, only when there aren't that many people online or interested in that race matchmaking will start to get desperate. I've been matched with SR.B when I was max SR with DR.D to DR.S in that room.

Matchmaking is better during prime time, yet at SR.S always a few rabbits at the front. The last time I saw a room with all the same ratings was at C/C.
 
Honestly i just feel like they should penalise whoever hits from behind more at this point. If they cant make the system sense who is truly at fault or more importantly the one with malicious intent, then at least a consistent rule that everyody already knows. It would stem purposeful shunting especially if they penalized you with fuel cut off penalties immediately afterwards or a penalty that stopped you from repeatedly doing it again. Almost everything bad that is happening seems to be from behind...

I know this isnt the perfect solution, sometimes people suck at braking far too much or too early or late but at least you would know what the consequences would be for following too close and being prepared for that.

Ive been in too many Sr S races to find that racers are totally willing to make 1 or 2 bad moves to simply just take the competition out and then with enough clean sectors before and after the incident they finish with a blue S.

The system isnt seperating accidents out from truly dirty driving. IMO
 
All this can be mostly fixed by PD adding damage or limit offenders car to 75mph and only driving through pits removes limit.
 
I like the idea of having damage, but trolls will be trolls, so once you have damage, not being able to inflict damage on another driver, only extending your own damage.
 

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