A "Super-V" Cadillac series?

[GT4_Rule]

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Its up to the public to decide, but certainly I won't be buying one even if I can, or for that matter, any BMW except for the M6. They look too damn ugly. M-B has better style but their quality is dreadful, so that's why I choose Cadillac.

 

[Wolfe]

Most people didnt like the E46 at first and i was seen as boring but it ended its life as a legend.

I think the E46, E39, and E38 (3-, 5-, and 7-series cars of the 90's, for those of you who don't know) will go down in history as some of the greatest car designs ever...they certainly represented a peak in BMW's styling, and the latest models have gone downhill from there -- even though I still think that the Z4, E60, E90, and E63 (Z4, and current 5-, 3-, and 6-series models) are all hot-looking machines...

 

[95GTIVR6]

Whether or not a design is Hot-or-Not is purely opinion. I personally like the designs that both Cadillac and BMW are now using. You can call it ugly, but you can't really say they suck. Both used their designs for reasons we can only guess. But hey, they are working.

In my opinion, I think Cadillac should choose an American based company to modify its V-Series cars further.

 

[Tornado]

That's the thing, Cadillac doesn't want to look to any other car maker for advice. They want to contract an independant tuning company to take the V cars and make them even better than they already are. That's the entire point. Also, Mallett would be a bad idea, Mallett puts entirely too much power and not enough suspension into their cars.

True. I've heard complaints about how Mallet Vette's have so much power that they are undriveable. The funny part? They have typically around 100-200 BHP less than Lingenfelters (who could probably actually do this succesfully, so maybe Johnny's old company should be contracted).

I'm sorry, you actually think that there are Japanese cars that can compete with Cadillacs? The only luxury cars you can name that even come close to competing with the V cars come from Germany.

V-Cars specifically? If no, than I can rattle off a long list, all from Lexus. Hell, Hyundai makes a better car than the Deville/DTS. If you meant the V-cars, than I concede, as that is very true.

Curves suck. Cadillac tried to go with curves in the late 90's, it sucked.

Very true. Although, in defense, it the greatest offender also wasn't really a Cadillac. The edge-lines are very Cadillac. The greatest thing Cadillac could do with itself is bring back the Eldorado nameplate, because the New Edge styling would fit the car perfect, as they are on the XLR. The only flaw with the Caddies is in the minor detailing (taillight size, car stance).

So why don't they look to some of their European divisions like Vauxhall or Opel? Maybe they can look to (outside of Europe) Holden.

They did. It was called the Catera, and it was the biggest flop the company had since the Allante and the Cimmaron, despite being the sportiest Cadillac made at the time. Beleive me, Cadillac will not take any help from any of those three for a good while.

 

[YSSMAN]

There was a special version of the Cadillac STS-V rolling around a year ago powered by a supercharged version of the Corvette's 6.0L LS2 V8. Power was rated a 505HP and 520lb-ft of torque, all of which was matted to a 6-speed automatic. Its not far beyond what the current STS-V is, but the extra ponies would have made it a better compeditor to the CLS55 and M5.

 

[McLaren]

I doubt McLaren will tune any caddies because Mercedes wont want them to.

Tough **** for Mercedes then.

Because they have McLaren build their SLRs doesn't mean Mercedes owns them.

And McLaren building something for them won't matter to Mercedes. The only link will be a $300,000+ supercar and a $70,000 Cadillac.

 

[McLaren]

If Cadillac is to build a CTS-V "Plus," its only going to be because they can. The origional CTS-V was used to show that Americans can build cars that can run with the M-spec and AMG models, and that we can do a damn good job in doing so. Yes, they didnt do enough with the interiors, and atleast with the XLR-V and STS-V, they didnt have enough sport to make them competition.

But, they are what they are... Comparible in performance, cheaper in price.

Nope.

A M6 will cost the same as a new XLR-V, and a fully loaded M5 is $8,000 cheaper. And don't give me the 4-door, 2-door bs.

I think people would buy BMW's no matter what, whether or not it looked like it got hit with Bangle's ugly stick. Wait... That's already happening. I think it's amazing that people will buy ugly cars with stupid computer systems just for a little blue & black badge.
And I have no clue about why people would copy those designs. It looks like a BMW... But it doesn't have BMW performance, prestige, or quality.

I like the new BMWs a lot. My 2005 is a Conv. so it's not been touched by Bangle yet, but I do like 'em.

BMWs are great cars. Great power, great quality, great ratings, and are very safe cars for the owners around me who own 'em.

 

[YSSMAN]

A M6 will cost the same as a new XLR-V, and a fully loaded M5 is $8,000 cheaper. And don't give me the 4-door, 2-door bs.

Is the M6 really a compeditor to the XLR-V tho? I mean sure, they are both coupes, but I think the XLR-V was looking to chase down SL55s and XKRs. But yes, the M6 is definatley the cheaper car in that situation. However, the XLR-V is cheaper than the SL55 and XKR by days end (similarly equipped models, of course).

As for the four-door V-series Cadillacs, the STS-V starts at $77,090 while the CTS-V starts at $50,675. Compare that to the two German Bahn-Burners, the CLS55 starts at $89,075 and the M5 at $84,895.

...Only the CTS-V can perform similarly to the M5, but the STS-V is it's technical compeition, so it loses in the performance category.

 

[McLaren]

IMO, the whole XLR and it's V partner are overpriced.

Who in the hell would think any Cadillac is worth the $100,000 for a V8? Not to mention, there's absolutely no options for the V model.

Sorry, but to me, any car is better priced than a XLR.
To me, Cadillac is NOT far enough into the Sports Luxury world to be charging $100,000. Until more and more people see how Cadillac is changing, many will simply spend their money on BMWs, Mercedes, and Jaguars.

 

[YSSMAN]

I would agree with you there. If Cadillac would have kept their Northstar V12 program rolling, it would have been a good choise for the XLR-V. The V12 Caddy would have been a good deal at $100K, but considering that the XLR-V is even down on HP compared to the STS-V, it isnt the best deal in the world.

But, the "stock" XLR is a good car at $76K-ish. Size, looks, performance is all on par with the SL500 and XK8, as well as the 645i, and is by far better than the SC430. Build quality might not be up to snuff, but what GM product is? I'd go for the Caddy when looking for a good drop-top lux, but in performance form, the SL55 is still probably the best.

 

[McLaren]

I would agree with you there. If Cadillac would have kept their Northstar V12 program rolling, it would have been a good choise for the XLR-V. The V12 Caddy would have been a good deal at $100K, but considering that the XLR-V is even down on HP compared to the STS-V, it isnt the best deal in the world.

But, the "stock" XLR is a good car at $76K-ish. Size, looks, performance is all on par with the SL500 and XK8, as well as the 645i, and is by far better than the SC430. Build quality might not be up to snuff, but what GM product is? I'd go for the Caddy when looking for a good drop-top lux, but in performance form, the SL55 is still probably the best.

I think the new little M Roadster is even a better deal than the XLR base. It's no doubt cheaper, better on the mileage, and packs about 3Hp less than a M3 Conv. (333HP).

I do agree, the big V12 would have been excellent as there aren't many V12s at $100,000 border.

I do think the price for the CTS-V is good and the STS-V is a bit overpriced, but that's me. IMO, the XLR would probably be selling better at $50,000 and the V at $70,000.

It would really get the ups on Jaguar's XK and SL500.
The XK rates 300Hp out of a V8 and has a 6 second 0-60, and costs $81,500.

The XLR-V, if at $70,000, would have it at the 443Hp, and 4.6 second 0-60. Interior would probably be favored in the Jag though.

 

[GT4_Rule]

IMO, the whole XLR and it's V partner are overpriced.

Who in the hell would think any Cadillac is worth the $100,000 for a V8? Not to mention, there's absolutely no options for the V model.

How about SL55?

Sorry, but to me, any car is better priced than a XLR.
To me, Cadillac is NOT far enough into the Sports Luxury world to be charging $100,000. Until more and more people see how Cadillac is changing, many will simply spend their money on BMWs, Mercedes, and Jaguars.

I remember Cadillac officials talking about beating competitors at the wallet as their main strategy...

How about this. We all know that those German makers overprice their car by around $5000-$15,000. They arent worth the money. Especially when you consider the build quality on recent models (M-B) and the style (BMW). Yes, some may like the Bangle butt, but over 90% of the car mags criticized his styling at some point, so its quite conceivable that its not very widely accepted. They just buy it for the badge, I know that. I know and seen so many wealthy Chinese people driving a 745i or S500, but when I ask them, do you know what the model and its engine is, they don't know what the hell I'm talking about. They just say that its a BMW or M-B. Allure of the name.....

*McLaren*, your 3-series conv isnt bad. I like that generation styling. But the newest one, E90, kills me.

 

[Poverty]

lol at german cars not worth the money. They are definetly worth the money and cost more than their rivals because other than being alot better the germans work few hours compared to the rest of the world so german companies have to hire lots of workers to make up for it.

 

[YSSMAN]

More news on the 2007 "Super" CTS-V:

Last week, we told you about a possible plan by Cadillac to build a series of “Super V” vehicles above its current V-series lineup. Months ago, the first spy shots appeared of the Cadillac CTS Super V, which is rumored to have the 505-horsepower, 7.0-liter LS7 V8 from the Corvette Z06. This week, the spies at Brenda Priddy & Company got up-close and personal with a parked CTS Super V (shown right). The image gallery contains three pictures, which show a near-production version of the car. Most notably, the car has significantly widened fenders to enclose the extra-wide rear tires, and the wider stand of the front wheels. The Leftlane Perspective: It’s unclear if the car is shown in production trim, or with some type of prototype body cladding. We feel the bubbly wheel arches clash somewhat with the angular design of the CTS. We’ll keep you posted as new details emerge.

Well, its going gold for 2007, apparently. I wouldnt be surprised if the car debuts at the New York Auto Show in a few weeks, as thats generally Cadillac's big show. I suppose the look is suposed to remind you of the CTS-V racecar from the SCCA racing, and it does a good job of it. I can't wait. A $60K-ish 505HP Cadillac that can maintain a superior stance above the RS4 all while chasing down the M5 is awesome.

 

[Poverty]

will it beat the RS4 round the 'ring... No.

 

[YSSMAN]

7'58 - Audi RS4 4.2 V8 FSI - 2005 @ The 'Ring

...No offical time for the CTS-V that I could find. However, I do know that it performs similarly to the C5 Z06 which turned in a 7'56 in 2003.

I would guess that the 505HP LS7 under the hood of the CTS-V would propell the car to a 7'53 range, placing it next to the Mercedes-Benz CLK-DTM.

 

[Dave A]

I though the cog is higher in the CTS-V though and I know the Cd is, and then you have weight and suspension setup, wheelbase and track ect, it's not as simple as it has a similar power to that car and they accelerate similarly. I don't know how similar it's supposed to be, but nit picking aside, theres little reason to think it can't lap that fast if the cars been setup well.

 

[Poverty]

I think the CTS-V would post a time somewhere among these guys. Or more importatntly to BMW fans under the M5. But if it dfoes beat the M5 I can have a field day making fun of BMW fans who badmouth the audi's.

Mercedes SL 55 ------------------------------------------ 8.12 min
Aston Martin V8 Vantage ------------------------------ 8.13 min (without R-tires)
BMW M5 E60 --------------------------------------------- 8.13 min
Viper SRT-10 --------------------------------------------- 8.13 min
Lotus Esprit Sport 350 ---------------------------------- 8.13 min
Mercedes SL 65 ------------------------------------------ 8.14 min
Corvette C6 ---------------------------------------------- 8.15 min
Z4 Alpina Roadster S------------------------------------- 8.15 min
Z4 V8 Topster -------------------------------------------- 8.16 min
Aston Martin DB9 ----------------------------------------- 8.16 min

 

[JohnBM01]

I just don't like the pro-American approach to all of this. The only thing I don't know if any Europeans would consider a Cadillac over some of their own best cars. I don't know if a European would consider a CTS-V or XLR over the classiest Mercedes-Benz or BMW or Rolls Royce. Overall, I'm just not hooked or enticed about Cadillac. There hasn't been a standout car I can truly appreciate, perhaps in the company's history. This is even though my brother has a 1960s Cadillac which doesn't look bad. It needs to be restored somewhat, but not a bad auto. I've never been into the vehicle for what I know.

I am usually Mr. "Citizen of the World" with automobiles. I do agree with most of the stuff my buddy *McLaren* mentioned in Post #39. At least with something like a Jaguar or Mercedes-Benz, you know what you're getting out of them. It isn't that I want Cadillac to crash and burn. If they want to take it to the more prestigious makes, they picked the right market. European automobiles usually offer nice power, excellent styling, not to mention great performance. And if you want to take the fight to such companies, you go right at Europe and instead of touching gloves and fighting clean, you touch gloves and go for that uppercut to the juggular first chance you get. Then you have to jump on top that jive turkey and pound his face in. I will still appreciate Jaguars and Mercedes-Benz autos for one big reason- prestige. These are companies that carry impact to the car genre being expressed. I don't think Cadillac is at that level yet, but I'm sure that's where Cadillac wants to be. Perhaps they want to be mentioned along the same wavelength of wonderful sedans and coupes as many of the companies I've mentioned, perhaps even beyond them (which will take much longer).

In relation to Cadillac and the European cars they hope to outlast or beat, what would personally make you happy in Cadillac's pursuit to outdoing Jaguar and such?

 

[YSSMAN]

At the moment, Im pretty happy with the way Cadillac has handeled themselves over the past few years. The design is great, the mechanical technology is there, and they are doing the best that they can (under GM) to top what now seems to be their main target: BMW. Although I dont think many Europeans will cross-shop a Cadillac with a BMW, many North Americans will because they are cheaper to buy, insure, and maintain.

Cadillac still has not done enough to create the best interiors in their class, however. Plastic quality is sub-par in most situations, but everything else is spot on for those who will be buying a Cadillac: Males, usually 50+, with money to spend.

Also, only one model bothers me at Cadillac right now, the DTS. It is still FWD, and its design can still be traced back to the '90s. Its a good car with a good ammount of standard features that will make most previous DeVille owners happy, but the car should have gone RWD ten years ago.

Changes are on the way, again, at Cadillac. The ULS (Ultra-Luxury-Sedan) is due by the end of the decade, and is supposed to have the 7-series and S-class in it's sights. Power is supposed to come from a base V8, and possibly a V12, assuming the engine program is still around.

To get upset about Cadillac unseating Jaguar is kind of misguided. Jaguar was allready in trouble by the time Cadillac had "fixed" their problems, so surpassing models like the S-Type and XJ was not impossible with cars like the CTS and STS. The same can be said of Mercedes-Benz, who are generally producing some of the most expensive and poorest quality vehicles sold in North America. They are nowhere near the top ten, and I believe they were one of the lowest three. It was almost unfair for Cadillac to surpass them, but BMW and Lexus are different stories.

Its going to take Cadillac a while to build up a reputation in Europe as a good car company, that has allready been established in the US. Good engineering, lower pricing, and comparitive performance is what it going to be required to match or beat Cadillac's rivals from Germany and Japan.

 

[Wolfe]

@Pics of the CTS-SuperV: Hmm. Usually I think a car with fender flares but no spoiler is unique and cool, but on the CTS-SV it just doesn't really look right. It's like some chiseled, muscle-bound, shirtless guy wearing a pair of poofy pantaloons.

The fact that the CTS is squared-off and the flares are incredibly round might have something to do with the weirdness...

@The pricing of Cadillac and its rivals: I agree with Poverty -- though to a less-fanboyish extent -- that Germany's cars are, for the most part, worth the money.

I also think that Cadillac's strategy of under-cutting the prices of their rivals is undermining the luxury and quality that they are trying to aim for. What good is a luxury sports-sedan that performs almost as well as the M5 for thousands of dollars less, if the interior, ride, and luxuries are of a lower quality? I think people who are in the luxury sports-sedan market are smart enough to recognize when corners have been cut, and they won't be looking for a pure performance/dollar deal.

I think the CTS-V would post a time somewhere among these guys. Or more importatntly to BMW fans under the M5. But if it dfoes beat the M5 I can have a field day making fun of BMW fans who badmouth the audi's.

Mercedes SL 55 ------------------------------------------ 8.12 min
Aston Martin V8 Vantage ------------------------------ 8.13 min (without R-tires)
BMW M5 E60 --------------------------------------------- 8.13 min
Viper SRT-10 --------------------------------------------- 8.13 min
Lotus Esprit Sport 350 ---------------------------------- 8.13 min
Mercedes SL 65 ------------------------------------------ 8.14 min
Corvette C6 ---------------------------------------------- 8.15 min
Z4 Alpina Roadster S------------------------------------- 8.15 min
Z4 V8 Topster -------------------------------------------- 8.16 min
Aston Martin DB9 ----------------------------------------- 8.16 min

It'll have some trouble beating the M5 if you expect it to hang with those cars...

7'52 - BMW M5 E60 – date of test unkown.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=74142

 

[Dave A]

One thing that hit's me about that Cadillac, thoes wheelarches are so damn ugly.

On the note of the M5 ring time I need to update my list, that M5 lap was done in a de-restriced M5, the restriceted one kept hitting it's 155mph limiter. The 8'13 time is the fastest recorded lap limited to 155mph. The M6 has done a lap in 8'09 limited.

 

[Ghost C]

Those fender flares are the suck. They need to be square, like the entire rest of the car, similar to the flares found on the E30 M3, R34 GT-R, Evo, WRX STi, etc.

The only official lap time I can find for the CTS-V is an '04, which ran it in 8'19. 04's had the old engine, and the newer cars may have recieved some suspension work different than the 04's had to address the wheelhop issues.

 

[super cirrus]

Why does Caddy feel the need to find a tuner to build the super V? I would think it has more resources for development and a better chance of making the cts work as a whole. American tuners usually lack the 'whole car working in unison' feeling.

 

[GT4_Rule]

Man those wheel archs look They dont match with rest of the car, man.

Id say do the tuning in-house - GMs got the resources to do it, why not?

 

[Poverty]

Man those wheel archs look They dont match with rest of the car, man.

Id say do the tuning in-house - GMs got the resources to do it, why not?

But have have they?

BMW Mercedes and Audi, all have separate divisions with their own plants that produce and manufacture their uber models.

 

[super cirrus]

But have have they?

BMW Mercedes and Audi, all have separate divisions with their own plans that produca and manufacture their uber models.

I think GM has more resources simply because it's a larger company than the germans (Don't know about VAG though). Also, all off those "divisions" are still tuned in house.

 

[Driftster]

Eh..Nothing special IMO...I mean, it was the obvious next step.
But it's in a CTS..The least luxurious of all cadillacs since that 80's POS.

It's still not in the same "league" as a M5, for the simple fact that the M5 still provides comfort, while the CTS feels like...every other sports coupe on the market(even if it has 4 doors)

 

[Wolfe]

One thing that hit's me about that Cadillac, thoes wheelarches are so damn ugly.

On the note of the M5 ring time I need to update my list, that M5 lap was done in a de-restriced M5, the restriceted one kept hitting it's 155mph limiter. The 8'13 time is the fastest recorded lap limited to 155mph. The M6 has done a lap in 8'09 limited.

Ah...that makes sense. I'd like to see what the M6 can do, unlimited...

 

[Poverty]

Facelifted SL55 is faster than the M6. The germans are definetly stepping up their game especially mercedes of late. I mean the new sl65 that will be stripped down will probably post a faster time than the Z06 around the ring if a 1900kg sl55 can do it in about 8:55