A welcome surprise about slipstreaming

[Alpha Cipher]

I noticed that when I'm slipstreaming behind an opponent and we enter a turn, my car tends to understeer. This is going on for a while now so every now and then I check my entry speed to know whether or not it's because of the slipstream or because I come in too hot from pressure. But my entry speed is more or less the same and sometimes even less when compensating for the opponent's entry speed. Does this mean the slipstream now also affects the aerodynamics of the car? Anyone else notice this?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Does this mean the slipstream now also affects the aerodynamics of the car? Anyone else notice this?

Yes, you can definitely notice the difference in a cars handling being in the dirty air from being around other cars.

 

[zzz_pt]

Also, if you're in a slipstream and go for an overtake at a higher speed, when you reach the apex at the same speed or even lower, your tires are hotter. It's normal that you have a bit more understeer.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Also, if you're in a slipstream and go for an overtake at a higher speed, when you reach the apex at the same speed or even lower, your tires are hotter. It's normal that you have a bit more understeer.

I don't notice this much in other cars, but I definitely felt in back when I was maining the Megane (It was the past pls don't flame me :'()
The steering would feel lighter much earlier when going for the pass, sometimes before even the apex, indicating a hint of understeer. I didn't think of it as the tires because they have no indication of tire temperature at all, but it would explain those certain situations

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I noticed that when I'm slipstreaming behind an opponent and we enter a turn, my car tends to understeer. This is going on for a while now so every now and then I check my entry speed to know whether or not it's because of the slipstream or because I come in too hot from pressure. But my entry speed is more or less the same and sometimes even less when compensating for the opponent's entry speed. Does this mean the slipstream now also affects the aerodynamics of the car? Anyone else notice this?

Yep.
And the understeer that comes with slipstreaming can also have a noticeable effect on tyre degradation. 👍

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Also, if you're in a slipstream and go for an overtake at a higher speed, when you reach the apex at the same speed or even lower, your tires are hotter. It's normal that you have a bit more understeer.

That is one thing I would like PD to make a much larger part of the game is the ability to monitor tire temps as to how your driving is affecting your tires and as far as abusing tires to really be able to see the difference in the tire wear as a result of pushing harder versus driving conservative and smooth.

What little playing I have done in custom races I do not think that tire wear is adequately modeled as to driving pressure only mainly from car to car differences. Tire temps and differences in wear from driving styles should make big differences in tire life and grip.

I have even playing around offline intentionally caused several major spinouts on a tire run using 5x tire wear and have not seen where the spinouts had any major influence in decreasing tire life and that is somewhat disappointing in looking for reality in running pit and tire strategies as driving smoother only seems to make a difference with fuel not tire grip or life.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

That is one thing I would like PD to make a much larger part of the game is the ability to monitor tire temps as to how your driving is affecting your tires and as far as abusing tires to really be able to see the difference in the tire wear as a result of pushing harder versus driving conservative and smooth.

What little playing I have done in custom races I do not think that tire wear is adequately modeled as to driving pressure only mainly from car to car differences. Tire temps and differences in wear from driving styles should make big differences in tire life and grip.

I have even playing around offline intentionally caused several major spinouts on a tire run using 5x tire wear and have not seen where the spinouts had any major influence in decreasing tire life and that is somewhat disappointing in looking for reality in running pit and tire strategies as driving smoother only seems to make a difference with fuel not tire grip or life.

No doubt the degree of degradation you see will involve the tyre type and Tyre Wear setting.

But it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say I've driven 1000's of kms on RSS tyres at 5x wear.
And I guarantee you that I can easily kill those tyres very quickly by driving like a hoon, or I can get many more laps out of them by driving smooth and constantly thinking about saving my tyres, even when the lap times of both driving styles are the same.

On a side note, tyre temps. would be a very welcome addition, even a data logger for replays would do.
It would be a handy tool to help set camber, if nothing else.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

That is one thing I would like PD to make a much larger part of the game is the ability to monitor tire temps as to how your driving is affecting your tires and as far as abusing tires to really be able to see the difference in the tire wear as a result of pushing harder versus driving conservative and smooth.

What little playing I have done in custom races I do not think that tire wear is adequately modeled as to driving pressure only mainly from car to car differences. Tire temps and differences in wear from driving styles should make big differences in tire life and grip.

I have even playing around offline intentionally caused several major spinouts on a tire run using 5x tire wear and have not seen where the spinouts had any major influence in decreasing tire life and that is somewhat disappointing in looking for reality in running pit and tire strategies as driving smoother only seems to make a difference with fuel not tire grip or life.

I semi-agree with this one. I wouldn't go so far as to say that driving style has no effect on tire degredation, because from my experience it does, but it's definitely not enough to warrant a difference in pit strategies. I remember a particular race in Panorama using the 911 RSR and my first stint was an all-out attack with lots of countersteering. This didn't work out too well with the front tires so I ran a more conservative style during the second stint. It was minimal, but the degredation was enough to see on the red. I tested it out after and I saw the same results. However, this is just a very small sample size (literally just around 2 hours of testing in the 911 at Panorama, with no opponents. That msy be a factor as well) so I'm gonna test it out some more when I have enough time.

 

[Lord Protector]

Also, when heavy braking after slipstreaming someone I tend to get out of the slipstream for extra air-resistance (even when not going for an overtake, just to gain more time)

I didn't think of it as the tires because they have no indication of tire temperature at all, but it would explain those certain situations

sorry to break it up for you but yes, they do, try to stand still for a few moments, or do donuts...

 

[Alpha Cipher]

sorry to break it up for you but yes, they do, try to stand still for a few moments, or do donuts...

Don't be! Like the slipstream's realism, dynamic tire temperature is a welcome surprise
I know that they can get cold or hot, but I thought it's more of an on/off switch like "if you go over this temp you suddenly lose grip" and vice versa. Although, I do want to see the exact temperature and just hot and cold

 

[baldgye]

No doubt the degree of degradation you see will involve the tyre type and Tyre Wear setting.

But it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say I've driven 1000's of kms on RSS tyres at 5x wear.
And I guarantee you that I can easily kill those tyres very quickly by driving like a hoon, or I can get many more laps out of them by driving smooth and constantly thinking about saving my tyres, even when the lap times of both driving styles are the same.

On a side note, tyre temps. would be a very welcome addition, even a data logger for replays would do.
It would be a handy tool to help set camber, if nothing else.

Yeah, it’s striking how little actual data they provide in the game... given the core tenants of GT:Sport...


Edit: Another striking thing about GTS is something that came up when Lewis was going around the ring with Kaz in that last video. In one of the versions he asks Kaz about which tyres they are using (brand), to which he responds along the lines of; all the tyres are the same.
This is really disappointing. Imagine being able to have events/series/leagues/Sport mode races that featured different brands of tyres!

 

[Outspacer]

Similar thing, but more extreme - I'm reasonably sure that I've been pulled off track by someone going off in front of me. A couple of times at Sheene Curve at Brands Hatch for example - I guess it doesn't take much to be dragged a little wide on the exit there, and it's quite a fast corner. Even maybe once at Stirlings Bend, although that may have been more a case of monkey see monkey do It seems to happen when someone goes off at high speed, having totally missed their braking point - it's not very common at DR A, so catches me out when it happens.

So... I'm not sure if any understeer is down to dirty air, or just slipstream effect.

 

[zzz_pt]

Yeah, it’s striking how little actual data they provide in the game... given the core tenants of GT:Sport...


Edit: Another striking thing about GTS is something that came up when Lewis was going around the ring with Kaz in that last video. In one of the versions he asks Kaz about which tyres they are using (brand), to which he responds along the lines of; all the tyres are the same.
This is really disappointing. Imagine being able to have events/series/leagues/Sport mode races that featured different brands of tyres!

Probably everyone would use the same - best - tires. I don't find it disappointing. Is there any sim with different tires from different brands behaving differently?

 

[baldgye]

Probably everyone would use the same - best - tires. I don't find it disappointing. Is there any sim with different tires from different brands behaving differently?

no idea, but what would be the best for a 3 lap race might not be the best for a 10 lap race... and you could enforce different brands for different events, as Sport mode and most league races require Hard tyres

 

[Alpha Cipher]

So... I'm not sure if any understeer is down to dirty air, or just slipstream effect.

Slipstream and dirty air are the same thing
I think what you're trying to say is whether it's understeer from dirty air, or being caught out from a sudden error of the one in front of you

 

[zzz_pt]

no idea, but what would be the best for a 3 lap race might not be the best for a 10 lap race... and you could enforce different brands for different events, as Sport mode and most league races require Hard tyres

Yes, but everyone would eventually use the best tires for 3 lap races and the best for 10 lap races. Also, if the game would enforce a certain brand of tires for an event, that would make the argument for different tire brands having different characteristics mute. I think we can have pretty good races with tire strategy with different compounds already. Also, I don't imagine tire brands allowing their products/brand in a game where their direct competitors have better tires for, say, road cars.

I would prefer 1000 times for PD to implement the ballast (from previous games).

 

[baldgye]

Yes, but everyone would eventually use the best tires for 3 lap races and the best for 10 lap races. Also, if the game would enforce a certain brand of tires for an event, that would make the argument for different tire brands having different characteristics mute. I think we can have pretty good races with tire strategy with different compounds already. Also, I don't imagine tire brands allowing their products/brand in a game where their direct competitors have better tires for, say, road cars.

I would prefer 1000 times for PD to implement the ballast (from previous games).

Assuming there was a 'best' tyre for the event. I don't see why they couldn't work like the cars do. The GR3 category seems to be pretty well balanced, for example.
If certain brands were enforced it would mean practising on them and learning how to get the most from each brand of tyre.

The tyre is one of the most important parts of racing, it's the only thing that (ideally) is supposed to be in contact with the ground. I think it would be pretty nice and welcome if PD actually did some work to properly model them a bit more than they have done. I'm not saying, drop everything else, but more depth to the game would be welcome, especially as it is a very real part of proper racing.

 

[Outspacer]

Slipstream and dirty air are the same thing
I think what you're trying to say is whether it's understeer from dirty air, or being caught out from a sudden error of the one in front of you

No, that's not what I meant. IRL, sure, it's one complex thing, as in disturbed air having a combination of effects. But in game, the modeling of those effects is greatly simplified - by slipstream I meant the modeling of drag reduction ('slipstreaming'), which could well be done by exerting a 'pull' force on the following car.

 

[zzz_pt]

Assuming there was a 'best' tyre for the event. I don't see why they couldn't work like the cars do. The GR3 category seems to be pretty well balanced, for example.
If certain brands were enforced it would mean practising on them and learning how to get the most from each brand of tyre.

The tyre is one of the most important parts of racing, it's the only thing that (ideally) is supposed to be in contact with the ground. I think it would be pretty nice and welcome if PD actually did some work to properly model them a bit more than they have done. I'm not saying, drop everything else, but more depth to the game would be welcome, especially as it is a very real part of proper racing.

If things are different, one of those things will always be better at something. I don't know of any sim that does that and probably isn't worth the effort. GTS lacks a lot of things physics wise on the car and tire model. If those were addressed, everything would be more interesting. Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't really find the idea of having to learn what tires of which brand I should equip in a car for a race in order not to get beaten.

 

[baldgye]

If things are different, one of those things will always be better at something.

I don't know that that's really true.

 

[zzz_pt]

I don't know that that's really true.

How so? How can you make things not equal and get rig of advantages/disadvantages?

 

[Lord Protector]

Yeah, it’s striking how little actual data they provide in the game... given the core tenants of GT:Sport...


Edit: Another striking thing about GTS is something that came up when Lewis was going around the ring with Kaz in that last video. In one of the versions he asks Kaz about which tyres they are using (brand), to which he responds along the lines of; all the tyres are the same.
This is really disappointing. Imagine being able to have events/series/leagues/Sport mode races that featured different brands of tyres!

he never said they are same. he said they arent any particular brand of

 

[baldgye]

How so? How can you make things not equal and get rig of advantages/disadvantages?

Because people are all different and so are able to take advantages of different things. So, you could for example;
have a car with a lot of understeer that might suit someone, and a car with a lot of oversteer that might suit someone else.
You could also have someone with an aggressive driving style that say, a softer Pirelli style compound might be ruined by the end of the race, but a harder and longer lasting Michelin would cope with the aggressive driving style without wearing to the degree of the Pirelli, while being slightly harder. But a smoother driver could take advantage of the softer Pirelli so that he'd be faster off the line, but would have to use their style to manage the tyres to make them last.

I've raced in league racing in the past and I've done Sport mode racing and it seems more than clear that you can have cars and tracks that suit some people, and cars and tracks that are totally different that suit others. I don't see one GT3 car being actually faster than the others, but they all handle and drive differently.

he never said they are same. he said they arent any particular brand of

I mean, I didn't quote him, but I think it's fair to draw the conclusion that the tyres are essentially the same regardless of stickers if when asked, he said "they aren't any particular brand" .... So I'm not sure what you're point is?

 

[Alpha Cipher]

No, that's not what I meant. IRL, sure, it's one complex thing, as in disturbed air having a combination of effects. But in game, the modeling of those effects is greatly simplified - by slipstream I meant the modeling of drag reduction ('slipstreaming'), which could well be done by exerting a 'pull' force on the following car.

That would be a very big disappointment if it were true

 

[Outspacer]

That would be a very big disappointment if it were true

To some extent, it will be true in any sim. That complex reality will be modeled as a collection of effects. It wouldn't surprise me if GT has a fairly simple model, but it wouldn't be all that disappointing (to me).

 

[VanessaMagick]

Similar thing, but more extreme - I'm reasonably sure that I've been pulled off track by someone going off in front of me. A couple of times at Sheene Curve at Brands Hatch for example - I guess it doesn't take much to be dragged a little wide on the exit there, and it's quite a fast corner. Even maybe once at Stirlings Bend, although that may have been more a case of monkey see monkey do It seems to happen when someone goes off at high speed, having totally missed their braking point - it's not very common at DR A, so catches me out when it happens.

So... I'm not sure if any understeer is down to dirty air, or just slipstream effect.

I've noticed this, but I feel like it is monkey-see-monkey-do. People making mistakes causing mistakes of people trailing them trying to follow their line too closely.

 

[TFLC_Dullman]

Is it possible to see in the Hud whether the tires are hot or cold? I can only see the red marks (getting bigger) on the tire symbol... I thought it shows the degeneration of the tires!? Am I wrong?

 

[MatskiMonk]

This is really disappointing. Imagine being able to have events/series/leagues/Sport mode races that featured different brands of tyres!

Statistically one tyre would end up appearing to be faster, everyone would then use it, and the chances of someone using someone else would diminish further compounding this effect. The community would then see it that something was broken and declare sport mode a waste of time until lazy incompetent PD fix it.

With online racing vs real racing, there are thousands of times more data points for people to judge what works best, and thanks to online communities that information spreads quickly, it totally undermines trying to engineer small nuances into the game, so I can understand why PD don't.

I used to think it would be great if the upgrade path in older GT games featured lots of different parts, but you were never really clearer on which one worked best, you just had to learn for yourself - clearly they never did that anyway, but these days, online racing + community forums = cloud-computing systems to determine which one option is the best.... this then dominates and we end up with the Megane effect.

 

[baldgye]

Statistically one tyre would end up appearing to be faster, everyone would then use it, and the chances of someone using someone else would diminish further compounding this effect. The community would then see it that something was broken and declare sport mode a waste of time until lazy incompetent PD fix it.

With online racing vs real racing, there are thousands of times more data points for people to judge what works best, and thanks to online communities that information spreads quickly, it totally undermines trying to engineer small nuances into the game, so I can understand why PD don't.

I used to think it would be great if the upgrade path in older GT games featured lots of different parts, but you were never really clearer on which one worked best, you just had to learn for yourself - clearly they never did that anyway, but these days, online racing + community forums = cloud-computing systems to determine which one option is the best.... this then dominates and we end up with the Megane effect.

I don't think I really agree with that and I think that the GR4 category isn't the best analogy, as the GR3 cars work pretty well. Yeah a lot of the top 10 times are 911's, but not all of them and the 911 isn't by far the best GR3 car in the game, it's just preferred by most people, at the moment.
While I don't disagree with what you're saying, it's true that a community can reach a consensus about the best path, in a well balanced and designed game this is simply called 'meta' and it changes as the community evolves and changes.

I also think it's unfair to label tyre compounds and brands as engineering small nuances, they are a real part of real racing and while I'm not sure that having races of mixed brands would be that interesting, I think it would be interesting for certain compounds to work differently and for you (as the driver) having to learn how to manage them.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I don't think I really agree with that and I think that the GR4 category isn't the best analogy, as the GR3 cars work pretty well. Yeah a lot of the top 10 times are 911's, but not all of them and the 911 isn't by far the best GR3 car in the game, it's just preferred by most people, at the moment.
While I don't disagree with what you're saying, it's true that a community can reach a consensus about the best path, in a well balanced and designed game this is simply called 'meta' and it changes as the community evolves and changes.

The point with the Megane analogy is that the rapid spread of its use is a reflection of the sheer quantity of races and number of players vs. the rate at which PD apply a BOP means that given a choice or option, one outcome will become very dominant very quickly, and this the leads the community to get all antsy about it. And, this is something that is simply not comparable to real-world racing - there are not thousands upon thousands of races taking place between BOP adjustments.

Can't speak for the Gr.3 races, I've only done one Gr.3 daily out of a measly total of sixteen sport mode races (one was a N200? race, the rest have all been in Gr.4)... and in the Gr.3 race, about half the grid was 911's at the start, and the top 5 was 911's. I've no idea if this is still the case, but that race didn't strike me as much different to the Gr.4 situation with the Megane.

I also think it's unfair to label tyre compounds and brands an engineers small nuance, they are a real part of real racing and while I'm not sure that having races of mixed brands would be that interesting, I think it would be interesting for certain compounds to work differently and for you (as the driver) having to learn how to manage them.

I think it would be fascinating for them to do from vehicle dynamics simulation standpoint, and it'd be somewhat representative of real-world championships that have tyre-wars... however, I don't believe that given the physics simulation limitations, putting additional variables in would do much for the game - I accept that in the real-world it can make a big difference, but in a limited physics simulation, it simply acts as one variable in a relatively simple equation that ends up having a predictable outcome quite quickly, thanks to the thousands of races taking place each day. From the game point of view, it becomes little more than a nuance, IMHO. With a more detailed tyre simulation model and handling, sure, there'd be more value, more again with a more detailed suspension model, even more again with a more detailed track model, yet more again with a different environmental effects model... ... but personally, and I'm sure others would disagree, whilst accelerated tyre wear has to be a thing, it's less about realism, and more about entertainment anyway (and I'm alright with that btw).