Abortion

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GTvon
My sister-in-law had an abortion 28 years ago she regrets killing her offspring to this very day and she is also unable to have children naturally due to the trauma caused by the abortion on her reproductive system. Those are a couple of things that those in favor of selective killing never talk about. They'd rather you don't think about those things.
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Kindof a confusing argument. Are you arguing that abortion is bad because it damages your reproductive system? That's not generally true, certainly not for the methods that most abortions use.

There's no conspiracy here. Pro choice people, generally, are not afraid to discuss the issue of understanding your choices and the risks involved with certain medical procedures. It's not like pro choice people all sit around and say "Hey, we're all murderers, and we want to keep murdering, but those pro-life folks keep bringing up uncomfortable points. Let's try to get people not to talk about stuff like that".

I'm guessing you don't actually want to talk about regret for abortion or long-term impacts of some abortion procedures. I think you'd find that just about all pro-choice people here are more than happy to talk about it though.

"Selective Killing" is not exactly a term that fosters discussion. It would be more appropriate to use that for describing someone who eats meat than someone who gets an abortion. I'd wager that you'd be unhappy with such an emotive and manipulative phrasing to discuss eating meat though. If that's true, just know that it's far less appropriate to use it to discuss abortion.
 
GTvon
My sister-in-law had an abortion 28 years ago she regrets killing her offspring to this very day and she is also unable to have children naturally due to the trauma caused by the abortion on her reproductive system. Those are a couple of things that those in favor of selective killing never talk about. They'd rather you don't think about those things.
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Every terminated pregnancy deprives a child rapist of a potential victim. That's something those who would deny an individual the right to bodily integrity on the broad basis that they're capable of bearing children never talk about. They'd rather you don't think about those things. (What reason could they have for not wanting people to think about that?)

This is fun.
GTvon
Treatments are not cures.
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There are lots of conditions for which no cure is known. Frequently, physiological effects of conditions for which no cure is known may be treated medically or pharmaceutically. Frequently, pharmaceutical treatments apply to unrelated conditions.

Modern. American. Conservatism. Is. Mental. Illness.

Edit: I should say I'm also comfortable reacting to the quoted post with the "Haha" option because I have no reason to believe it's true. Connies have demonstrated a propensity to fabricate from whole cloth circumstances to validate their preferred narratives because they lack a rational foundation.
 
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Roo
I don't know your sister, of course. But given the attitude you display, I'd consider the possibility that the regret she feels comes less from the abortion and more from telling you about it.
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Also a reason to believe it to be a fabrication.
 
GTvon
I really don't care what decision people make as long as they make informed decisions based on all available facts rather than being swayed by popular opinion.
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And if a woman makes an informed decision based on all available facts that she wants to terminate her pregnancy, what business is that of yours or anyone else's except her?
 
GTvon
It took us 20 years since this post but at least w got it right eventually. Keep the faith.


It's my sister-in-law and she lives in another state and this was conveyed to me by my wife. But you go on second guessing people see how well you do with that.
I really don't care what decision people make as long as they make informed decisions based on all available facts rather than being swayed by popular opinion.
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No rational foundation. No meaningful engagement. Predictable.
 
GTvon
It's my sister-in-law and she lives in another state and this was conveyed to me by my wife. But you go on second guessing people see how well you do with that.
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"consider the possibility" were carefully chosen words. If I ment "this is what she really means", that's what I would've typed. I have not, and will not, claim to know what your sister-in-law thinks.

But you go on second guessing people see how well you do with that.

And by all means react with a laughing or poo emoji to your own words.

GTvon
I really don't care what decision people make as long as they make informed decisions based on all available facts rather than being swayed by popular opinion.
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Unless the popular opinion agrees with your position?

Note the question mark.
 
The post referred to as havibg gotten it right mentions fuzzy definitions. Recognize the right to bodily integrity and you don't have to deal with fuzzy definitions.

The post referred to as having gotten it right mentions responsibility. Terminating an unwanted pregnancy is being responsible.
 
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GTvon
It took us 20 years since this post but at least w got it right eventually. Keep the faith.
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That you took on of the single most misogynistic rants in this thread to cheerlead for says a lot, and none of it is good.
GTvon
It's my sister-in-law and she lives in another state and this was conveyed to me by my wife.
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So it's been filtered via two sources of confirmation bias
GTvon
But you go on second guessing people see how well you do with that.
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No, it's why anecdotal evidence is by far the lowest standard of evidence, and as such can be easily dismissed and makes your following claim absurd.
GTvon
I really don't care what decision people make
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That's patently untrue
GTvon
as long as they make informed decisions based on all available facts rather than being swayed by popular opinion.
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One side of this debate works with facts, and the other works with a pattern of outright lies (just to be clear - this is the one your on).
 
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GTvon
It's my sister-in-law and she lives in another state and this was conveyed to me by my wife. But you go on second guessing people see how well you do with that.
I really don't care what decision people make as long as they make informed decisions based on all available facts rather than being swayed by popular opinion.
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In medical ethics, and by extension the practice of medicine, there is a fundamental principle called "informed consent". This covers things from prescriptions all the way through to major surgery. Your sister in law's abortion would have been no different, and I hope that she was told that abortion is a safe procedure as this has been validated through numerous studies. Now I don't know what happened in her case, and I don't know how your wife knows that the abortion caused her inability to reproduce naturally, but if it was undertaken by a licenced medical practitioner in a suitable environment then this would have been a rare occurence. What may have happened is she could have developed an infection, which could have then led on to something called PID. I am interested to know specifically how the abortion affected her reproductive system....

As for her regret, I'm afraid that's another rare outcome. I do hope she gets therapy if that is needed, but you can't really say we aren't talking about such things. This has been done numerous times before however, and it'd be cool to debate something new, like what should be allowed once artificial wombs are a thing (e.g. would they tecnically be "born"; when could they be terminated; can they be called "babies" etc).
 
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GTvon
I thought selective killing was more accurate than indiscriminate murder which I don't think it is at all I think it's highly selective and it is the ending of a life and it's the phrase that she uses to describe it, not my words. And as for how you discuss eating meat that's entirely up to you and it bears no significance to me.
Try not to get so hung up on words.
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I think you used selective killing (your words, not hers, since she didn't write your post) intentionally to be emotive and assign blame. You tried to dodge the point about eating meat, but it applies to all kinds of killing, including just ejaculation (which will likely kill millions of living sperm depending on your count). The point is that lots of things, including living things, are killed regularly and we don't go around calling people murderers or killers as a result unless we're trolling.

GTvon
Yeah asking for more personal information about someone isn't really a good idea. I don't even think that's allowed. I probably should have said there have been cases and left it at that.
And I really can't believe that a woman can have an abortion and have it be rare or uncommon to regret it and not remember what the birthdate of the child would have been every year when that day rolls around And how old that child would be had it been allowed to live.
You make it sound like women are monsters and heartless beasts without emotion.
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How could you possibly know the birthdate of a fetus that doesn't have one? You realize that children aren't born on a precise schedule right? Lots, and I mean lots, of embryos and fetuses do not live to birth. Why would you assume that an aborted embryo or fetus would even have a birthdate, let alone which birthdate it would have? This is some kind of alternative timeline that you're just imaging you can fortune-tell for some reason.

When an abortion occurs, it occurs with the organism that is terminated ("selectively killed" to use your parlance). It does not occur with some future child. The thing which is killed is often only a few cells which are dividing, not a great deal more than the sperm and egg that originated it and would have died had they not met. Recognizing a hypothetical made-up birthdate and agonizing over it makes about as much sense as doing that for a spent tissue that contains some of your selectively killed DNA.

heartless beasts... give me a break.
 
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Danoff
Recognizing a hypothetical made-up birthdate and agonizing over it makes about as much sense as doing that for a spent tissue that contains some of your selectively killed DNA.
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This particular birthdate bitchfit actually goes back a bit.
GTvon
That's dependant on the culture. In some cultures your are 1 year old at birth. Scientifically you are 9 months old at birth so at 2 months before birth you are 7 months old.
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It's idiotic.
 
GTvon
Yeah asking for more personal information about someone isn't really a good idea. I don't even think that's allowed. I probably should have said there have been cases and left it at that.
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Apologies, was curious about the pathology. You can admit it's rare, right?
GTvon
And I really can't believe that a woman can have an abortion and have it be rare or uncommon to regret it
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Wait, I just gave you a link directly contradicting that? Did you not read it?
 
apnews.com

Utah governor says he plans to sign abortion clinic ban

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — Utah Gov. Spencer Cox said Friday that he plans to sign a measure that would effectively ban abortion clinics from operating in the state, meaning hospitals will soon be the only places where they can be provided in the state.
apnews.com apnews.com

When it comes to abortion restrictions, Utah's new law seems like it's the least bad one. Essentially, abortions are restricted to instances of rape, incest, and when the mother's life is in jeopardy, with 18 weeks being the cut-off. Abortions also must be performed in a hospital setting, which will likely be fine considering the two major health systems in the state have vowed to continue performing abortions.

Is this an ideal law? No, of course not, but it's definitely saner than the state who've banned abortion full stop even in the case of rape, incest, or when the mother is actively dying.
 
GTvon
And I really can't believe that a woman can have an abortion and have it be rare or uncommon to regret it and not remember what the birthdate of the child would have been every year when that day rolls around And how old that child would be had it been allowed to live.
You make it sound like women are monsters and heartless beasts without emotion.
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I guess being heartless is a job for the men since you left them out completely despite the fact that one is usually involved somewhere when we're talking about conception.

But if we're on the subject of regret, I think one would feel a lot more bringing someone into the world when they can't care properly for them, essentially forcing a child to live up to a lifetime in pain and discomfort. I know I would.
 
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Danoff
Recognizing a hypothetical made-up birthdate and agonizing over it makes about as much sense as doing that for a spent tissue that contains some of your selectively killed DNA.
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While it is undoubtedly an exception, I know of someone who has a tattoo of the birth flower of the due date month of their aborted foetus. I can see the sense in that, even if it isn't common.

What I've learnt from that person is that there can be moments of regret/grief, but I believe they still thought it the right decision.
 
How is 'someone had an abortion and regret it' any solid argument at all? She made the wrong choice, deal with it.

It had a really bad burrito 13 years ago and still regret it today and cannot go comfortably to cheap Mexican restaurants, but you won't hear me asking to ban Taco Bell?
 
Gingerale
How is 'someone had an abortion and regret it' any solid argument at all? She made the wrong choice, deal with it.

It had a really bad burrito 13 years ago and still regret it today and cannot go comfortably to cheap Mexican restaurants, but you won't hear me asking to ban Taco Bell?
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It's not, hence their disappearance from the thread.
 
HenrySwanson
While it is undoubtedly an exception, I know of someone who has a tattoo of the birth flower of the due date month of their aborted foetus. I can see the sense in that, even if it isn't common.
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I think they made the same fortune-telling mistake that others have made in this thread.
 
True, raising up a kid born from a rapist is a burden that few would be able to carry. Seeing everyday someone who would always make you think about it. That' just terrible
 

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