ABS off vs ABS 1

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Griffith500
The reason progressive braking still "works" is that the traction circle still applies. Maximise braking effort, and there's no grip left to turn on, so you have to modulate the brakes in order to do both. That is what ABS values higher than 1 accomplish, and is something that very few, if any, real world cars do (Evo X as a possible example, but that still has the limitations listed above).



What's more, in my tests online, braking distance is identical with ABS set to 0 as it is set to 1. I didn't bother modulating the brake pedal in either case so the tyres left big elevenses without ABS (locked), but didn't with it (rotating at road speed).

I wasn't primarily referring to tail braking in my example a the Fuji main straight.

In a straight line, progressive braking and/or blipping the throttle reduces braking distance in my experience no matter the mode and if grip is set to "real" with ABS 1.

I'm not 100% certain if this is caused by ABS settings at all, but I assumed its because there's still lockup and this is inefficient.

Worst braking performance (with ABS 1) in a straight line: applying full brakes in an instant.

Better: progressive braking.

Best progressive braking and blipping the throttle while full on the brakes.

If you have time do give this a try in a straight line and/or on very wet surface (> 90%).

I don't think in my case exceeding the grip budget while turning and braking has anything to do with it.
 
I wasn't primarily referring to tail braking in my example a the Fuji main straight.

In a straight line, progressive braking and/or blipping the throttle reduces braking distance in my experience no matter the mode and if grip is set to "real" with ABS 1.

I'm not 100% certain if this is caused by ABS settings at all, but I assumed its because there's still lockup and this is inefficient.

Worst braking performance (with ABS 1) in a straight line: applying full brakes in an instant.

Better: progressive braking.

Best progressive braking and blipping the throttle while full on the brakes.

If you have time do give this a try in a straight line and/or on very wet surface (> 90%).

I don't think in my case exceeding the grip budget while turning and braking has anything to do with it.

My braking distance tests were in a straight line measured from the start / finish at Nürburgring. I didn't bother modulating the brake pedal, though, so there is a chance that maximum braking effectiveness is not 100% pedal force with ABS, although it seems unlikely.

I will try it, but you should probably try it again as well and make sure you are measuring the distance accurately (e.g. test one speed from the start / finish line instead of some speed somewhere before the first corner).

I presume you're using a clutch? That adds extra inconsistency, especially if your blipping with heel and toe, where it's hard to maintain a constant brake pressure during the blip. You should probably test for that, too; e.g. automatic trans vs. putting it in neutral etc. when braking.
 
I'm using the DS3 ATM but am a left finger trigger braker ;) also I don't rely on engine braking much (don't like it IRL either). Also I ease off the brake entering a turn.

So I discovered it by accident when going too hot into a corner that I could gain a few metres, when I realise I passed the "usual" braking point.

Also I found in Arcade the AI used to be a bit better on the brakes than me in the same stock car.

Will try and see.
 
Even with ABS1, you will get better braking distance in most case if you control the pressure, wich is even more critical without ABS. :)
 
mike_gt3
Even with ABS1, you will get better braking distance in most case if you control the pressure, wich is even more critical without ABS. :)

That's my feeling, too, though I would say in all cases. But why? That's why I'm not 100% convinced by Amar's findings because I feel they don't explain this. Or I haven't understood them ;)
 
All I need to know is that ABS1 in no fashion represents the real thing and that with it off braking becomes realistic.
 
A quick and dirty test with the Carl Edwards 2010 NASCAR on RH with downforce at 40 / 60, BB at 5 / 3. Fuji, Free Practice.

I was braking from 150 mph on the main straight starting at the first chequered line (next to the flag box, just before the first blue gantry, after the pit lane entry)

I end up perfectly at grid slot #23 on warm tyres without ABS, full braking power - all four wheels locked.
I can get my rear bumper in line with the front of #23 box on cold tyres, whether I lock or if I try to avoid locking makes little difference (in a straight line; no lateral grip makes a huge difference when locked!)
This tyre temperature dependence (a car length) was missing in my tests online, but that was on Comfort Soft tyres in low-powered road cars, and with lower starting speed.

With ABS, I cannot get closer than perfectly in line with grid slot #22 on warm tyres. The shortest distance was obtained by applying full power instantaneously and remaining there until stopped.


All of the above was in 3rd gear, allowing a stall when I came to a stop.
Putting the car in neutral increases braking distance marginally (quarter of a car length) and using the automatic box allows ABS distances to be reduced marginally, too, but has little effect when the wheels are locked without ABS.


All of this indicates, as I had suspected since Prologue, that ABS is not quite making best use of the tyres (just like TCS doesn't), this is probably deliberate to keep some grip available for steering.
However, locking the wheels is catastrophic for steering, so most non-ABS drivers avoid it like the plague, and also brake earlier and more gently in general (turning and braking is much harder without ABS). This means ABS is almost certainly an aid in most circumstances (i.e. everywhere but straight-line braking to a standstill.)
Also, my braking control is not good enough to find an optimal braking power away from 100% that results in shorter braking distances, if it actually exists.

Moreover, this is a pretty constrained test (car, tyres, speed etc.), there may be other behaviours with other situations. This test only focuses on braking to a standstill; braking for a corner is different, even if you brake in a straight line first, being gentle / smooth can prevent imbalance in the car which may hinder your turn in, with or without ABS.

Thoughts and / or contributions?
 
I started playing this game with everything off, including ABS. I'm just too stubborn to race with it on so I tend to have a slight disadvantage online. Doesn't really bother me, though, cause it's more fun this way IMO.

There should be more online races with disallowed ABS.
 
JDMKING13
All I need to know is that ABS1 in no fashion represents the real thing and that with it off braking becomes realistic.

Well the Aston Martin DB9 needs to be taken off the road then. It's a death trap.

The slightest touch of my brake pedal locks up the wheels down Le Sarthe at full pelt.
No I'm not jamming on the brakes with a lead foot. Barely 10 mm of pedal travel if that.

Supercar my arse. People would be killed everytime someone wanted to come off the Motorway, highway, interstate or whatever you want to call it.

Granted its my first time on GT in awhile. I was in arcade and switched it off. The Brake bias settings were default. No doubt I have to mess about with them. I couldn't find an option to do that in arcade though? Grrr.
 
A quick and dirty test with the Carl Edwards 2010 NASCAR on RH with downforce at 40 / 60, BB at 5 / 3. Fuji, Free Practice.

I was braking from 150 mph on the main straight starting at the first chequered line (next to the flag box, just before the first blue gantry, after the pit lane entry)

I end up perfectly at grid slot #23 on warm tyres without ABS, full braking power - all four wheels locked.
I can get my rear bumper in line with the front of #23 box on cold tyres, whether I lock or if I try to avoid locking makes little difference (in a straight line; no lateral grip makes a huge difference when locked!)
This tyre temperature dependence (a car length) was missing in my tests online, but that was on Comfort Soft tyres in low-powered road cars, and with lower starting speed.

With ABS, I cannot get closer than perfectly in line with grid slot #22 on warm tyres. The shortest distance was obtained by applying full power instantaneously and remaining there until stopped.


All of the above was in 3rd gear, allowing a stall when I came to a stop.
Putting the car in neutral increases braking distance marginally (quarter of a car length) and using the automatic box allows ABS distances to be reduced marginally, too, but has little effect when the wheels are locked without ABS.


All of this indicates, as I had suspected since Prologue, that ABS is not quite making best use of the tyres (just like TCS doesn't), this is probably deliberate to keep some grip available for steering.
However, locking the wheels is catastrophic for steering, so most non-ABS drivers avoid it like the plague, and also brake earlier and more gently in general (turning and braking is much harder without ABS). This means ABS is almost certainly an aid in most circumstances (i.e. everywhere but straight-line braking to a standstill.)
Also, my braking control is not good enough to find an optimal braking power away from 100% that results in shorter braking distances, if it actually exists.

Moreover, this is a pretty constrained test (car, tyres, speed etc.), there may be other behaviours with other situations. This test only focuses on braking to a standstill; braking for a corner is different, even if you brake in a straight line first, being gentle / smooth can prevent imbalance in the car which may hinder your turn in, with or without ABS.

Thoughts and / or contributions?

I really like how you did this 👍 ABS also keeps the car to stable like ASM which really bother me. It hides peoples bad braking technique.
 
Griffo. If your locking up your wheels that should increase your braking distances. Is that what your finding? From the way I'm understanding you locking up or not doesn't make any differences. Or am I reading you wrong?
 
Griffo. If your locking up your wheels that should increase your braking distances. Is that what your finding? From the way I'm understanding you locking up or not doesn't make any differences. Or am I reading you wrong?

You're reading the results exactly as I presented them, yes (whether they're 100% correct is another matter; I'm really hoping others try this).
Locking the wheels appears to have no straight line disadvantage, in fact my results suggest that it constitutes a small advantage from high speeds, which speaks volumes of the tyre model.
That is, you are correct in that locking should be a disadvantage (which it is, massively so, as you know, but only if you want to turn anywhere in GT5).

I had the first inklings online back in Prologue, when I had to brake hard to avoid ramming people, and locking actually allowed me to slow down faster than the cars around me, although it completely scuppered me for the corner.

Which brings me to another issue: ABS and no ABS are highly incompatible on the track because of the difference in driving style the one allows and the other demands. In other words, I'm a bit of a liability online, where most people stick with ABS, but I don't (for fun). You have been warned... :p


As for the brake bias adjustments, in Arcade I think you're limited to the "RA menu", which I have mapped to the "X-button" and the D-pad on my G25 for quick access in shuffle races. No idea if it's doable on other controllers, though.
 
Here's a little guide with some tips on how to brake without ABS
It's in no way directly related to GT5 and I don't know if it's the best place to post the link, but I see it useful to learn the basics of breaking without locking the wheels for those having a hard time with it.

On a related note to the OP:
I don't use ABS. I see the braking balance as a 50/50 balance, and I normally set it depending on the weight distribution of the car, adding 25 more to the front and 25 less to the back, to somewhat simulate the moment when the weight shifts under braking as the front would get more weight, gaining more foward momentum and therefore needing more stop power (also because the wheels would supposedly have more grip because of the extra weight). Those inversed reasons for the back.

Ex: A car with a 50/50 weight distribution will have a 7/2 or 8/3 (rounding, as it would be 75/25).

I am obviously not sure of this theory of mine, but it seems to be working well for me, as I managed to do the Le Mans 24h with the Mazda 787B (twitchy little car) almost without locking the wheels, doing so only once in a while.

Cheers
 
I tried some no ABS driving for the first time tonight and really enjoyed it. I was in a Weds Sport IS350 driving around GVS. It was definitely a challenge having to concentrate on brake pressure a little more but at the same time it was fun. I will definitely try it more often outside of the series's I'm participating in and see how it goes. Who knows, maybe eventually try some ABS off races eventually.
 
I tried some no ABS driving for the first time tonight and really enjoyed it. I was in a Weds Sport IS350 driving around GVS. It was definitely a challenge having to concentrate on brake pressure a little more but at the same time it was fun. I will definitely try it more often outside of the series's I'm participating in and see how it goes. Who knows, maybe eventually try some ABS off races eventually.

Nice 👍 Once you get it down GT5 will really show its teeth.
 
Been playing GT5 without any assists, including ABS from the start. Hate ABS, its only brake assist with different name ...
 
I tried the 400PP seasonal in the Alfa 147 last night with no ABS & using the 'sponge ball' method previously mentioned somewhere. Was great fun & the ball worked well. Definitely gonna wean myself off ABS.
 
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I tried some no ABS driving for the first time tonight and really enjoyed it. I was in a Weds Sport IS350 driving around GVS. It was definitely a challenge having to concentrate on brake pressure a little more but at the same time it was fun. I will definitely try it more often outside of the series's I'm participating in and see how it goes. Who knows, maybe eventually try some ABS off races eventually.

If you continue not to use ABS you will eventually get used to it. I haven't used ABS for a fair few months now and I now can't drive with ABS- the car feels to neutral and dead. I even race online in events without it. 👍

One key thing is never come off the brake pedal when you lock. If you do that you upset the balance of the car and in some cars, will spin. If you start locking just ease up on the pressure a bit. :)
 
ABS1 vs ABSoff ?????

As Amar212 explained GT5's ABS does not represent real life Anti-lock Braking Systems

Funny enough turning off ABS even effects my times in the GTAcademy rounds where no braking is involved LOL

Trying the Nissan Leaf tests 1-3 (accelarating through corners) ABS off somehow makes me faster
Could it be the so called ABS messes with the differential or suspension when it detects a loss of grip ????
 
LOL, 👍👍 for this thread! :eek:
Actually since I bought my G27 wheel I more or less try to play without ABS and my main concern was also as mentioned above - if a car does have an ABS - must I play with ABS on 1, as 6 and above (for me at least) really hurts the feel of the car?
The game with ABS off seems very lively and you should really play with the brake balance, otherwise on most cars you are missing the turn if you slam on the brakes.
And I think Griffith500 is very right by saying that actually if you brake in a straight line locking the wheels will be an advantage. The problem is that while locked you can't turn properly at all. So ... inevitably the advantage can be a disadvantage.
 
add
Funny enough turning off ABS even effects my times in the GTAcademy rounds where no braking is involved LOL

Trying the Nissan Leaf tests 1-3 (accelarating through corners) ABS off somehow makes me faster
Could it be the so called ABS messes with the differential or suspension when it detects a loss of grip ????
About physics:
It has been said, if you turn everything off except ABS 1, GT5 physics are still somehow nerfed. FACT IS: if you want full GT5 physics you need to turn EVERY assist OFF and accordingly adapt your driving style, braking skills, brake bias and car setup to ABS off.

About brake techniques:
Some people use a sponge ball on DGFT break pedal for more control. I'm not using it yet, for now I prefer run with 1/0 or 2/0 brake bias and softer suspensions, DFGT pedals has only 2 pedals so I'm not using proper heel and toe technique. I brake with left and blip throotle with right foot. The result is like heel and toe without heel and toe. Blip is needed to settle car inertia while entering the turn, at the same time it keeps engine revs high.
I tried to use only right foot on 2 pedals but my mind feel the need to use left foot for something so I use this alternative technique.
 
HKS racer
About physics:
It has been said, if you turn everything off except ABS 1, GT5 physics are still somehow nerfed. FACT IS: if you want full GT5 physics you need to turn EVERY assist OFF and accordingly adapt your driving style, braking skills, brake bias and car setup to ABS off.

About brake techniques:
Some people use a sponge ball on DGFT break pedal for more control. I'm not using it yet, for now I prefer run with 1/0 or 2/0 brake bias and softer suspensions, DFGT pedals has only 2 pedals so I'm not using proper heel and toe technique. I brake with left and blip throotle with right foot. The result is like heel and toe without heel and toe. Blip is needed to settle car inertia while entering the turn, at the same time it keeps engine revs high.
I tried to use only right foot on 2 pedals but my mind feel the need to use left foot for something so I use this alternative technique.

an other proof for me that abs in gt5 affects more than the braking is that it also change the behavior of the car when downshifting with a clutch. with abs on 1 the car does not seem to be affected by the amont of compression of the engine, without abs, the timing of the downshift is important to maintain stability.
 
About physics:
It has been said, if you turn everything off except ABS 1, GT5 physics are still somehow nerfed. FACT IS: if you want full GT5 physics you need to turn EVERY assist OFF and accordingly adapt your driving style, braking skills, brake bias and car setup to ABS off.

About brake techniques:
Some people use a sponge ball on DGFT break pedal for more control. I'm not using it yet, for now I prefer run with 1/0 or 2/0 brake bias and softer suspensions, DFGT pedals has only 2 pedals so I'm not using proper heel and toe technique. I brake with left and blip throotle with right foot. The result is like heel and toe without heel and toe. Blip is needed to settle car inertia while entering the turn, at the same time it keeps engine revs high.
I tried to use only right foot on 2 pedals but my mind feel the need to use left foot for something so I use this alternative technique.

an other proof for me that abs in gt5 affects more than the braking is that it also change the behavior of the car when downshifting with a clutch. with abs on 1 the car does not seem to be affected by the amont of compression of the engine, without abs, the timing of the downshift is important to maintain stability.

These are two different things. In manual (sequential) or automatic mode, GT blips the throttle and matches the revs almost perfectly, so there is no need to blip the throttle for rev matching unless you're using the clutch.

The stabilising effect HKS racer is experiencing is well known, and was the topic of much talk in F1 a few years back when they were running those trick diffs, and more drivers started "left-foot braking". This was when the cars were running 900+ bhp and 20k+ rpm limits, so engine braking was phenomenal. The "left-foot braking" description was sometimes not useful for the discussion, which was actually about overlapping the controls (throttle and brake together), not just which foot did what. Ironically, this practice of overlapping the controls had probably been going on for years beforehand, but the "switch" to left-foot braking in F1 brought it to more people's attention.

The reason you do it is to either reduce the engine braking effect (by bringing the net longitudinal thrust at the wheels closer to zero, i.e. "neutral throttle") or to take the diff out of its "deceleration mode". On deceleration, most road-car diffs are practically open. On the limit (braking and turning) this means the unloaded, inside wheel gets the majority of the "back torque" (engine braking effect) which causes the instability you're feeling - imagine pulling on a rope tied to only one of the rear wheels, the car will want to rotate more in the direction that it is already turning. The GTR, 458 and older F1 cars, as examples, constantly adjust their diffs to prevent both understeer and oversteer in all conditions, so that engine braking works favourably with the driver's intentions. I imagine GT5's ABS takes the engine braking into account so as not to lock wheels that have additional braking force from the engine. This means, when braking, the ABS handles instabilities from engine braking to some extent, so it would be less apparent, except in the extreme.

It's common to see professional drivers trailing the throttle with their heel or the side of their foot when braking into a corner, even when they don't change gear. A similar approach is useful for 4WD rally cars on loose surfaces, but that overlaps with another technique that you use on FWD cars that changes the effective brake bias rearward to induce oversteer, not prevent it.

So, you only need a very small amount of trailing throttle to stabilise a RWD car under braking, i.e. just enough to neutralise the throttle (hold a constant speed). Despite the diffs now being functionally limited, F1 cars still use this technique, possibly in the engine map with some headroom left for driver control, and I think they call it "back torque limiting", a term inherited from the motorcycle world, where engine braking is even more of an issue.

It's also important to remember that this is all heavily dependent on differential settings; front, rear and centre. In that sense, it helps to think of the individual forces at each wheel under different circumstances, but most drivers have an intuitive feel as to what control inputs work and what don't, even if they can't explain why.
 
LOL, 👍👍 for this thread! :eek:

.

And I think Griffith500 is very right by saying that actually if you brake in a straight line locking the wheels will be an advantage. The problem is that while locked you can't turn properly at all. So ... inevitably the advantage can be a disadvantage.
.

Also, in any kind of race longer than the standard gran turismo 3-5 laps you are going to need to take care of your tires. Every time you lock up you are burning off precious tire life, and you may find yourself on the wrong end of a battle on the last lap- wishing you had that bit of grip that you vaporized. I can't wait to see if GT6 brings us flat-spotting, tire temp zones, and tire pressure adjustment. Some of you tuning/testing chaps will have a heyday! I love it! (Just post the results of your labors on here please :sly:)

PD needs to see this thread and realize what we're after. Kaz obviously wants two things from this franchise- to cater to the millions who are just playing a cool racing game with thousands of cars, and to give potential racers a very realistic tool to become better drivers. Achieving both goals is entirely possible- we just need more options. Just ship the game with most of the 'assists on' and none of the great masses who just want the casual, pick-up-and-go racing experience will notice (or care) that there are some major simulation properties/parameters lurking in the option menus.

BTW this is an outstanding thread (including the brilliant links to other threads) and I will be switching my whole style from ABS 1, to ABS OFF starting this evening. I have a heavily-modified nixim block in my G25 brake pedal... why am I messing around with ABS if it's not really ABS?

👍
.
 
My braking distance tests were in a straight line measured from the start / finish at Nürburgring. I didn't bother modulating the brake pedal, though, so there is a chance that maximum braking effectiveness is not 100% pedal force with ABS, although it seems unlikely.

Somewhere I got that idea too. Some really mega fast people in Gt5 never floor the brake and it's made me really confused, is there some sort of magic limit you shouldn't go over when running with ABS? Many people have said you shouldn't let the "tyres lock up" when using ABS but in a straight line I can never tell what the tyres are doing, so usually I just floor it.

I really hate the detached feeling ABS causes. Sometimes when you're sliding and you floor the brake with ABS on, the car feels like it's sort of floating and the tyres aren't actually touching the track. You can go sideways, but no smoke comes out and it's really unpleasant. With ABS off the physics feel uninterrupted and you can always tell what the car is doing, and why.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipzSF0sxc2g

Here's a hotlap I did trying to beat this for a challenge in an another thread. It just goes to show that braking zones like the one at 5:55 become really intense when running without ABS. Also there's no uncertainty about how much you can brake when braking hard for a slow corner like the mulsanne chicanes, because as long as you're not locking them up, you're fine. Coming down from really high speeds you can even floor the pedal for a second or two if you've got the brake bias set up right, but once you scrub off speed the chance of lockup becomes higher.

I'm really glad to see so many people who enjoy this game without ABS. Many people are sceptical to try it, saying it just makes you slower, but so does turning SFR off. In the end it ends up giving you so, so much more enjoyment and feel.

I hope the scene keeps growing and we get more and more no ABS leagues running (props to JDMKING for being a pioneer).
 
I posted my time without ABS in different car than the top ten use, then I wrote about ABS being brake assist in this thread - New TT34 & DT34 ... some of the folks there who set the time trial laps with ABS got heated up and called me an elitist, while I simply want them to give no ABS a try and at least not use the same car with the top ten drivers, apparently they thought they would get slower times without ABS or just can't drive as fast as they would be with ABS on, hence they insist that drivers without ABS are elitist :( and its their preference to drive with ABS in time trials

They fail to see that ABS is not really ABS ...and choose to stick with ABS driving and citing that it's their own preference as the reason .. do driving without ABS is a scary or non viable proposition to some folks here in GTP...
 
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they insist that drivers without ABS are elitist :( and its their preference to drive with ABS in time trials

They fail to see that ABS is not really ABS ...and choose to stick with ABS driving and citing that it's their own preference as the reason .. do driving without ABS is a scary or non viable proposition to some folks here in GTP...

Ahahahaha, I'm far far far far far from the fastest, and for a while i was even slower with ABS off, but i loved the feeling, even on DS3.

I struggled and stuff (getting used to BB) but at the bottom of it was a passion for a more refined experience.

I'm in it for the satisfaction of driving, not for a fast time on some one-make "leaderboard".

Everyone likes to win though, and that's what pushes you to improve.

It's about attitude rather than aptitude.

Wanting to win versus Needing to win.
 
These are two different things. In manual (sequential) or automatic mode, GT blips the throttle and matches the revs almost perfectly, so there is no need to blip the throttle for rev matching unless you're using the clutch.
I feel GT5 automatic blip is not the IDEAL blip in every turn. Expecially at Nordschleife, I end up bliping at least 70% of turns. But this is not a rule, everyone will use what works best for him. And thanks for the good read in the rest of the post.
 
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