ABS off vs ABS 1

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I'll be honest, sometimes it's more than "nuance". Some cars require ridiculous brake bias settings, like 6/0 (what is that? 100% forward? Doesn't feel it...) in order to be driveable, whilst very similar cars would be fine on 5/3. I don't think the numbers have any real link to the underlying physics, and they're certainly not consistent across all cars.

We need proper bias adjustments, i.e. percentage fore/aft and overall braking power rather than this silly, imprecise and inconsistent method. Add it in as a separate upgrade part if you have to, but make it make sense!

Anyway, yeah, if it's unstable, keep moving the bias forward to the extreme until it is stable. If you're losing braking power in a straight line and you're still getting instability, there's a chance your driving is upsetting the car, or the car is inherently unstable and would benefit from fiddling. I'd try to address the driving style part first, though. Coming off the brakes really is the hardest part to get right, and smoothness as well as timing are imperative.
 
Griffith500
I'll be honest, sometimes it's more than "nuance". Some cars require ridiculous brake bias settings, like 6/0 (what is that? 100% forward? Doesn't feel it...) in order to be driveable, whilst very similar cars would be fine on 5/3. I don't think the numbers have any real link to the underlying physics, and they're certainly not consistent across all cars.

We need proper bias adjustments, i.e. percentage fore/aft and overall braking power rather than this silly, imprecise and inconsistent method. Add it in as a separate upgrade part if you have to, but make it make sense!

Anyway, yeah, if it's unstable, keep moving the bias forward to the extreme until it is stable. If you're losing braking power in a straight line and you're still getting instability, there's a chance your driving is upsetting the car, or the car is inherently unstable and would benefit from fiddling. I'd try to address the driving style part first, though. Coming off the brakes really is the hardest part to get right, and smoothness as well as timing are imperative.
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The highest BB I use is 5/2 and that's for race cars. I have no problem with braking any car.
 
By "highest", I suppose you mean "most forward"? I don't have any "problems", per se, just that cars that should drive fairly similarly on similar brake biases (or whatever those settings actually are, since they're not a true bias setting at all, they're two separate "power" settings) often don't. An example I can think of just now is the Premium Mazda Roadster, before this update (not driven it since) and, I think, the LFA, which I have driven since the update - both required unusually forward "biases".

The vast majority of cars I drive are fine with 5/3, which is my default setting. Sometimes I drop it to 4/2 on slippery tyres, or 6/4 on race machines. Note that they are three distinct biases (62.5, 66.6, 60 % forward), and three distinct power settings (8, 6, 10 ssf*), when all I wanted were different peak braking powers. If there were a way to set the power separately from the bias, players could more easily tune the lock-up point versus their "pedal travel" and not mess with the bias itself at all, and so avoid the risk of ruining a working bias.

* Shekels per square finger, at a guess.
 
Griffith500
I'll be honest, sometimes it's more than "nuance". Some cars require ridiculous brake bias settings, like 6/0 (what is that? 100% forward? Doesn't feel it...) in order to be driveable, whilst very similar cars would be fine on 5/3. I don't think the numbers have any real link to the underlying physics, and they're certainly not consistent across all cars.

We need proper bias adjustments, i.e. percentage fore/aft and overall braking power rather than this silly, imprecise and inconsistent method. Add it in as a separate upgrade part if you have to, but make it make sense!

Anyway, yeah, if it's unstable, keep moving the bias forward to the extreme until it is stable. If you're losing braking power in a straight line and you're still getting instability, there's a chance your driving is upsetting the car, or the car is inherently unstable and would benefit from fiddling. I'd try to address the driving style part first, though. Coming off the brakes really is the hardest part to get right, and smoothness as well as timing are imperative.
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Unlike the rest of the entire world in all of human history, in GT5, 0 does not equal zero. 0/0 braking does not mean no braking, put in on a car and try it you'll see, the brakes still work. I'm not sure what they were thinking but it helps to think of 0 as 1, 1 as 2 etc. So a 3/0 would actually be 4/1 or 80%/20% brake bias which is not unrealistic. That assumes of course it's a linear relationship between the numbers...let me check the GT5 manual...yeah, good luck with that...lol.

But you're right of course, and I've never seen anyone mention it before except for me, but I don't know why we don't just have a slider of some sort for brake balance, that goes from 0-100. Seems kind of silly that in the worlds greatest driving simulator we have completely unexplained and undefined brake settings.
 
Griffith,

I noticed this as well, cars have individual Brake Strengths which are non adjustable, and the BB seems to control the sensitivity of your input and its distribution between F and R as opposed to the actual Brake Strength. On low settings your input has more travel until you reach the preset lock point.
 
I play with ABS off most of the time. I just don't want to get into the habit of slamming the brakes all the time :lol:
 
What I hate about ABS off in GT5 is that I have to adjust the brake bias for every car..
ABS off seems very difficult at first because of that 5/5 default setting, but once I change it it becomes easy..
I remember when the first time I bought GT5, I tried it at the store with confidence I turned off ABS, use Castrol Tom Supra at Suzuka (Arcade mode), I thought I'm gonna show off my GT4 skills but then I spun at the very first turn and people was watching me like an idiot. I still blame the brake bias for that!
 
Dodzzz
What I hate about ABS off in GT5 is that I have to adjust the brake bias for every car..
ABS off seems very difficult at first because of that 5/5 default setting, but once I change it it becomes easy..
I remember when the first time I bought GT5, I tried it at the store with confidence I turned off ABS, use Castrol Tom Supra at Suzuka, I spun at the first turn and people was watching me like an idiot. I still blame the brake bias for that!
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:lol: It's actually fun for me. My favorite car is my turbo Miata. Stock Miata has 1/0 BB but mine has upgraded brakes which is 2/0 and I love it.
 
@JDMKING
I didn't know how the BB works until you suggest me to change it to 2/0 for the FT 86 in the other thread. I thought it works like percentage, so in my mind, BB 1/0 or 10/0 was the same, or 2/1 and 10/5.. :lol:
Now I know that thanks to you I can improve my ABS off driving skill with proper brake bias :)
 
Dodzzz
@JDMKING
I didn't know how the BB works until you suggest me to change it to 2/0 for the FT 86 in the other thread. I thought it works like percentage, so in my mind, BB 1/0 or 10/0 was the same, or 2/1 and 10/5.. :lol:
Now I know that thanks to you I can improve my ABS off driving skill with proper brake bias :)
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:lol: It's all good man drive on! 👍
 
I agree with OK8, i've been on the wheel for about a week now and i've always had ABS on 1, i set it to 0 and changed the brake bias, to 3 and 2, 3 in the front 2 in the rear, they'll still lock up but only under hard braking, but when i have it to, 5, 4. Or 4, 3 even, it locks up at about 1/4th braking, it seems that the brake pedal is that much more sensitive, obviously it would be, being that the number is higher (4,3). But 3 and 2 is perfect for me on all cars i use, rx7, m3, srt10 and my S14 :sly:
 
kogunenjou
Excuse me, but what size are you talking about when you mention the sponge ball? I'd love to get a neoprene ball but they come in 26 different sizes.
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Find the one you can squeeze best under the brake pedal of the pedal set.

Buy few sizes and test them, 6 cm, 8 cm or 10 cm in diameter will be good for testing. Have fun, you will see how complete feel of braking will change 👍
 
XEPEGTP
Griffith,

I noticed this as well, cars have individual Brake Strengths which are non adjustable, and the BB seems to control the sensitivity of your input and its distribution between F and R as opposed to the actual Brake Strength. On low settings your input has more travel until you reach the preset lock point.
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Yeah, I know that lower numbers reduce the "sensitivity". It's just that the lower numbers, where most people are forced to "operate", offer the smallest range of usable biases and any attempt to reduce the overall sensitivity usually results in a change in brake bias, too.

What I would expect would be a fine-grained bias control (with at least 1% intervals, perhaps half that) and an overall power ( / sensitivity) setting.
In a racing car, this would be the equivalent of moving the balance bar one way or the other (bias), whilst changing the overall power is usually not needed on the fly and is achieved with changes in hardware e.g. calipers / master and slave cylinders, rotor / disc sizes etc.

In GT5, then, the overall power should be fixed per car according to the hardware fitted from the factory and the bias should really be something like the car in question, too (although proportioning valves, ABS, and the various stability controls make this a much harder job.)
Then they could add a proper brake upgrade in the form of adjustable bias (twin master cylinders with adjustable balance bar, for example) and "more powerful" braking components (i.e. only for sticky tyres, in the absence of fade characteristics) with bias adjustments as detailed above.

An advantage of the bias-only adjustment is that once you've got the overall power / sensitivity dialled in, you only ever need to change one number to adjust the bias on the fly, instead of sometimes having to change two with the current system.
 
A big 👍👍 for the 'Sponge Ball' method.

I've been driving with ABS off for a few weeks in a bid to ditch the final driving aid, unfortunately I have to use DS3 (triggers) most of the time but I do get to use my DF Pro once or twice a week.

After initially mocking me, my wife did pick me up a sponge ball the other day when she was out shopping, it's about 3 inches (7cm) across and is pretty soft but squeezes in nicely uner the brake pedal.

Tried it last night and it is a massive improvement. You really have to push hard to get full brake application, so I got hardly any lock-ups, only a little during high speed braking if I didn't release the pressure enough as the car slowed.
 
My name is Cote and I have been off ABS for a month.:sly:

I originaly set most cars at 2/1 and was OK with the results, lately I have been using 4/0 and 3/0, it gives me a more stable car under braking and allows me to break later in the entrance of the corner when needed.
Every car is a little different but I usualy adapt my driving to the car cararcteristic instead of playing too soon with the different brake bias. I resort to alter my basic set up ( 4/0 ) only if the car reaction are too extreme.
Letting pressure off the brake slowly is what as improved my off ABS driving the most lattely.
 
I prefer abs off I think it helps when coming up short for corners I'll hold the hand break and break n lock all the wheels up and it gives u that bit extra distance to make the corner
 
ItsHim
I wasn't primarily referring to tail braking in my example a the Fuji main straight.

In a straight line, progressive braking and/or blipping the throttle reduces braking distance in my experience no matter the mode and if grip is set to "real" with ABS 1.

I'm not 100% certain if this is caused by ABS settings at all, but I assumed its because there's still lockup and this is inefficient.

Worst braking performance (with ABS 1) in a straight line: applying full brakes in an instant.

Better: progressive braking.

Best progressive braking and blipping the throttle while full on the brakes.

If you have time do give this a try in a straight line and/or on very wet surface (> 90%).

I don't think in my case exceeding the grip budget while turning and braking has anything to do with it.
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I think the competition between those that are driving with ABS and those that aren't is really beginning to take place now mainly because I'm starting to get the feeling that ABS is more of like an auto-aim feature in a FPS game lets say. There is no way ABS OFF can outbrake ABS1 just like how you can't outshoot someone who is using auto-aim which is why most of the top fastest players on the leaderboards I see all use ABS1. As for realism I think players should start looking into PC sims like iracing that simulate ABS off and clutch much more correctly than GT5 does. I assume players in GT5 that are true non-abs users are just trying their best to simulate that feeling they get in iracing not just because they want to be better than those that use ABS1 but because they want it to be as realistic as possible. Sometimes thats all that matters for some and thats perfectly fine.

I do like to drive with ABSOFF as much as I like to drive with ABS1. It's like playing a whole different game. Almost like 2 games in one. But as with progressive braking I don't think this is true with ABS1. Braking with ABS1 sometimes just feels like I'm braking on ice in real life or invisible floating air.

I don't think progressive braking in ABS1 does anything compared to just full flooring it. The stopping license tests (the one with the green Aston Martin specifically) are a good example for this. If you progressively brake I noticed you won't stop as soon or in time for a complete stop. But I could be doing it wrong so yeah but that's just what I've been trying to figure out lately.
 
amar212
Buy few sizes and test them, 6 cm, 8 cm or 10 cm in diameter will be good for testing. Have fun, you will see how complete feel of braking will change 👍
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I now have this image of some of the GT Academy winners arriving at the competition finals with a set of foam balls in their luggage, which they then take into the gaming cockpit.:)
 
GTPLam
I don't think progressive braking in ABS1 does anything compared to just full flooring it. The stopping license tests (the one with the green Aston Martin specifically) are a good example for this. If you progressively brake I noticed you won't stop as soon or in time for a complete stop. But I could be doing it wrong so yeah but that's just what I've been trying to figure out lately.
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You still need to brake progressively and control the pressure to have the optimal braking with ABS1, i rarely apply full brake. :)
 
mike_gt3
You still need to brake progressively and control the pressure to have the optimal braking with ABS1, i rarely apply full brake. :)
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Well I guess so but are you leaving your brake bias at 5/5 when in ABS1?
 
I highly doubt Mike leaves his BB at 5/5 on all cars but it does work on some cars for sure. Most cars will benefit from some brake BB tuning, especially at the 'Ring, where Mike dominates:sly:
 
ABS1 with 5\5 does have some tail step out, but not nearly as much as without ABS, its like as you guys said, a "auto-aim" function.

Wouldnt that bypass the physics engine?

If its telling the car it cant do that(with ABS off, understeer) yet with ABS it seems to magically hug the apex perfectly.
 
GTPLam
Well I guess so but are you leaving your brake bias at 5/5 when in ABS1?
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Yes, on stock cars i always leave the brake bias stock 5/5, but on race car or cars i tune i adjust the brake bias(unless its restricted in a event), with ABS off i also change the brake bias, even on stock cars otherwise it ridiculously oversteer.:scared:

Theres only one thing id like to see improved with ABS off, its not really a complaint, i dont mind running with or without ABS, to me they dont feel far from each other minus the following:

applying the right brake pressure isnt a problem at any speed and i can do high speed braking and enter a curve downshifting gears fine but as soon i release the brake on lower speed corners or where theres a change of altitude (without shifting gears) the car react weird and oversteer badly and quickly. In real world on downshifts it will happen if you dont heel/toe and drive very agressive, but no matter if i drive very smooth, releasing the brakes will just make the car react like someone bumped the rear of the car slightly. (tried to find a way to describe it... lol)

lets say i enter Wehrseifen on Nurburgring, still braking hard entering the first part of the chicane in 3rd gear, keeping 3rd gear all the way through the chicane, i have a smooth line entering the first part, im about to release the brakes and smoothly go back into throttle, no change of steering input, and as soon i release the brake the car will oversteer but it was fine while braking, no gear change.

Anyone noticed that? that is the only thing id like to see improved, the rest if fine and i like the fact you can lock the wheels for cars that doesnt have ABS.

To me the only difference between both is on low speed curves where i seen that ''issue'' (wich may not feel the same way for other people wich is fine :)), other than that it feel close to the same to my feeling (if you change the brake bias to make the car driveable on ABS off),


I would compare it to steering, on high speed corners most of time you will go slower if you turn the wheel all the way with full throttle rather than just have a good mix of throttle and steering input, same goes for braking, i can imagine seeing a huge difference with ABS1 to ABSoff if braking really hard on most corners pushing the car beyond the area where it perform the best, the ABS1 will make it more stable (prevent some crashing) and almost feel like an aids compared to ABS off,


Thats probably why some will have different perspective about it.

I have no opinion or preference about it, just pointing out the only thing id like to see changed about ABS off for my driving style, the ABS1 isnt perfect either, but to me feel closer to my car when driving the same way i drive in real life (only because of the low speed oversteer on brake release ive experienced), .....i dont drive over curbs at 280kmh in my real car though... :D

The other aspect where ABS1 might help is on the brake pedal stiffness on hard braking, since that is not translated into the pedal its harder to get the real feel of the limit, that is slightly tricky when you can lock the brakes on ABSoff, but with the right brake bias and some runtime its not bad, you just become a little more cautious wich can add a realistic feel in some way. :)

I hope it make sense.:sick:
 
Yah like in license tests they don't let you change the brake settings. Assuming for just ABS1 I remember johnny it was who said in another post it should be around 6/4 and maybe even 4/6 for cars that have a little bit understeer and they should be at least 1 ratio length apart meaning it would never be 6/5, 5/6 or 5/4.

Also it seems that whenever I'm using ABS1, gt endurance type cars, lemans type cars, racing cars in general seem to require only about 70%-80% of the brake pedal to be pressed to get your braking done right. But for production type cars like stock ZR1 or viper they need around 90%-100% brake pressure to brake effectively. Iono maybe its just me or what
 
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mike_gt3
applying the right brake pressure isnt a problem at any speed and i can do high speed braking and enter a curve downshifting gears fine but as soon i release the brake on lower speed corners or where theres a change of altitude (without shifting gears) the car react weird and oversteer badly and quickly. In real world on downshifts it will happen if you dont heel/toe and drive very agressive, but no matter if i drive very smooth, releasing the brakes will just make the car react like someone bumped the rear of the car slightly. (tried to find a way to describe it... lol)

lets say i enter Wehrseifen on Nurburgring, still braking hard entering the first part of the chicane in 3rd gear, keeping 3rd gear all the way through the chicane, i have a smooth line entering the first part, im about to release the brakes and smoothly go back into throttle, no change of steering input, and as soon i release the brake the car will oversteer but it was fine while braking, no gear change.

Anyone noticed that? that is the only thing id like to see improved, the rest if fine and i like the fact you can lock the wheels for cars that doesnt have ABS.
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Do you mean like this?


if yes, that's what I'm also curious about.. is it realisticly like that ABS off in real life?
I never brake hard from 200kph to 100kph! so I'm really curious about that and want opinion from a real life racing driver.
 
Yeah it is what i felt with ABS off, in this case he downshifted in same time, but it make no difference for me in my testing, keeping the same gear will do the same.

for your question i will say no, ive driven decently quick cars before and ive never experimented that kind of reaction. My own car is a FF, with 350whp, it did 12.5@114mph on quarter mile, it kind of oversteer pushed to the limit off throttle, and the brake are much more closer to ABS1 only because of that ''issue'' if i can call this an issue...

Thats the only reason why i most of time use ABS1. But like i said i dont bother running both. I just wished it was fixed in an update. :)
 
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