ABS or no ABS?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Thatman
  • 123 comments
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ABS or no ABS?

  • ABS?! Yes please!

    Votes: 43 59.7%
  • ABS? No thanks!

    Votes: 9 12.5%
  • ABS? Meh...

    Votes: 20 27.8%

  • Total voters
    72
I love how people keep insisting they can stop faster without ABS when it has been tested, by professionals, many times over, that ABS out performs even professional drivers.

Get over yourselves, before you kill someone.

You probably do not know this but I used to engineer braking systems. Everything from small boat trailers to commercial airliners.

Not all ABS systems are created equal.

With that, I am a professional who has tested exactly this...and no, a human can out brake an ABS system.
 
The old ones. New ones cycle a lot faster, and come closer to threshold. In other words, the number of times per second that the brakes are "pumped" is incredible.

Older ABS applications sound like a water-wheel ratcheting... clank, clank, clank... newer ones sound like light machine gun fire... tap-a-tap-a-tap-a-tap-a... I could definitely pump brakes faster than any 90's system, but not these new ones.

Granted, in some conditions, full-lock will still provide shorter distances, newer systems are programmed to come closer to the threshold and sometimes to allow lock or more braking pressure at lower speeds. This is where some ABS systems suck, as they will bring you from 60 or 80 mph down to 10 mph as quickly or more quickly than a non-ABS car, then add an extra half-meter to a meter in braking distance as the car creeps down. This is the part that most people hate... as it leads to more low-speed loss of braking. Some cars don't do this... I just wish manufacturers would make ABS deactivation standard once the vehicle falls below a certain speed threshold.

And, EBD is a life-saver... ensuring proper brake bias at all times. Sadly... EBD is often linked inextricably to the ABS system, and deactivating one deactivates the other.
 
You probably do not know this but I used to engineer braking systems. Everything from small boat trailers to commercial airliners.

Not all ABS systems are created equal.

With that, I am a professional who has tested exactly this...and no, a human can out brake an ABS system.
Jack of all trades, you are.
 
You probably do not know this but I used to engineer braking systems. Everything from small boat trailers to commercial airliners.

Not all ABS systems are created equal.

With that, I am a professional who has tested exactly this...and no, a human can out brake an ABS system.

Are there any tests that prove either theory? I would think having worked in the industry you might have gained access to some car results, as we're not really talking trailers or commercial airliners.
I do know the MT record production car 60-0 was set
http://www.motortrend.com/womt/112_0306_spdtest/photo_03.html

My memory failed me in the Mosler's distance, but without "ABS getting in the way", it still failed, also from 100.
http://www.motortrend.com/womt/112_0306_spdtest/photo_06.html#photo
 
...in a split second, panicked, emergency decision? Or after repeated stops in a controlled environment?...

What is a split second, panicked, emergency decision?

I'll tell you...it varies from driver to driver and from situation to situation. There isn't any electronic system which can compensate for EVERY driver, in every condition, in every situation, and compensate for whatever condition the car is in.

Remember; there's a difference between a car that's factory fresh and something with 150k miles on it with different tires and brake hardware along with normal wear & tear.

An ABS system is designed to accommodate for all of that and is in fact a compromise of sorts. With that in mind, a human can still out brake an ABS system. You may not be able to but that doesn't mean the man standing next to you cannot.

If an ABS system were to fail if the car changed tire types, or if the brake pads were replaced with something from another vendor, or just plain old stop working after 100k miles...lawsuits would be everywhere. It's in the manufacturer's interest to have a braking system that'll be adequate for over 90% of the population and that will last the entire life of the car.

I know you're posting a sort of 'gotcha' question which you can follow up with who knows what. Can't show anyone you're wrong on the internet can now can we? I just hope you think things through a little bit and realize that the question you asked is actually kinda dumb.
 
What is a split second, panicked, emergency decision?

I'll tell you...it varies from driver to driver and from situation to situation. There isn't any electronic system which can compensate for EVERY driver, in every condition, in every situation, and compensate for whatever condition the car is in.

Remember; there's a difference between a car that's factory fresh and something with 150k miles on it with different tires and brake hardware along with normal wear & tear.

An ABS system is designed to accommodate for all of that and is in fact a compromise of sorts. With that in mind, a human can still out brake an ABS system. You may not be able to but that doesn't mean the man standing next to you cannot.

If an ABS system were to fail if the car changed tire types, or if the brake pads were replaced with something from another vendor, or just plain old stop working after 100k miles...lawsuits would be everywhere. It's in the manufacturer's interest to have a braking system that'll be adequate for over 90% of the population and that will last the entire life of the car.

I know you're posting a sort of 'gotcha' question which you can follow up with who knows what. Can't show anyone you're wrong on the internet can now can we? I just hope you think things through a little bit and realize that the question you asked is actually kinda dumb.
No it wasn't stupid. We could sit here and name scenarios for you, but you're clearly hell bent on believing people out-do ABS all the time, and while you're entitled to your opinion, we're entitled to ours.
And now you're expanding your argument to "Well if it has xxx miles, or different pads...".
You're simply throwing variables into the equation that aren't needed. It's already been decided wheels have to slip before ABS engages, which nearly defies the threshold argument in the first place. For a human to be able to stop faster without ABS, the ABS has to either kick in before 10% slip, or after 20% slip, I've seen no evidence or reason to believe either.
The only evidence I have for either is the quickest stopping production cars in the world do have ABS. There's gotta be some reason in the plethora of supercars without ABS none of them stopped as fast, and while it could be that the master of all things driving wasn't behind the wheel, it's certainly far from definitive.

I'll be the first to admit I can't find any tests comparing the two, you should easily be able to understand that at this point, you have nothing aside from your word that you are right yourself.
All of this means only that this is a matter of opinion unless somebody conducts a test to try and best a properly functioning ABS with their driving skill, and I won't be holding my breath for that.
Even if they did you would probably claim poor driving on the drivers part, from the way you sound.
Definition: Stalemate.
 
I feel more in control without ABS. It scares me when it seemingly activates for no real reason. Sure it has probably saved me a handful of times when someone pulls out in front of me but the rest of the time it has a mind of its own.
 
What is a split second, panicked, emergency decision?

...

I know you're posting a sort of 'gotcha' question which you can follow up with who knows what. Can't show anyone you're wrong on the internet can now can we? I just hope you think things through a little bit and realize that the question you asked is actually kinda dumb.

Not really. Believing you can out-brake ABS in every situation you'll ever come across is kinda dumb though.

I know that might be hard to swallow for someone who clearly believes they're better than everyone else, so I apologise.

I feel more in control without ABS. It scares me when it seemingly activates for no real reason. Sure it has probably saved me a handful of times when someone pulls out in front of me but the rest of the time it has a mind of its own.

See this view makes sense to me.

Do you like ABS? No. Can you brake better without it? Probably on most occasions. Has it saved you from an insurance claim a few times? Hell yes.

I don't see how this concept is so hard for some people to grasp. ABS isn't flat out better in all driving situations, but it absolutely is in others.
 
blah-blah-blah

Those 'tests' happen all the time...

If you do not want to take my word for it, that's your prerogative, but I have yet to hear your expertise on this issue. What I have stated is not opinion. Just b/c you do not like what I have to say on this matter doesn't mean it's opinion. I used to engineer these things for a living and can say, without a doubt, that not all ABS systems are created equal. A great example are 350Z owners who use racing slicks for track days. It's pretty well documented...look for yourself.

The main purpose of ABS is to not upset the car if steering input it added during a panic stop. Believe it or not, or call it 'opinion', people try to slam on the brakes WHILE turning the wheel at the same time. That can spell trouble in a non-ABS car. Decreased braking distances in adverse weather for a majority of drivers is an unintended benefit.

But can a person out-brake their ABS system? The answer is yes.
 
Not really. Believing you can out-brake ABS in every situation you'll ever come across is kinda dumb though.

I know that might be hard to swallow for someone who clearly believes they're better than everyone else, so I apologise.

You're putting words into my mouth and tossing in an ad hominem for measure. Smarten up...
 
But can a person out-brake their ABS system? The answer is yes.

You see, this point I don't disagree on.

What I disagree with is your implication that a person, such as yourself, can out-brake ABS in any scenario. I'm referring to you specifically because you said earlier that you disconnect your ABS whenever you can.

I'm sure you're good enough at braking that 99% of the time, you don't need ABS. But that other 1% of the time, it's rather useful to have it, and I can't believe that your day-to-day road driving is improved that much by not having ABS that you're prepared to risk the one in a thousand scenario where having it saves your own, or someone else's life.

You're putting words into my mouth and tossing in an ad hominem for measure. Smarten up...

See above.

And your typical post is more than enough of a giveaway to how you see yourself.
 
Those 'tests' happen all the time...

If you do not want to take my word for it, that's your prerogative, but I have yet to hear your expertise on this issue. What I have stated is not opinion. Just b/c you do not like what I have to say on this matter doesn't mean it's opinion. I used to engineer these things for a living and can say, without a doubt, that not all ABS systems are created equal. A great example are 350Z owners who use racing slicks for track days. It's pretty well documented...look for yourself.

The main purpose of ABS is to not upset the car if steering input it added during a panic stop. Believe it or not, or call it 'opinion', people try to slam on the brakes WHILE turning the wheel at the same time. That can spell trouble in a non-ABS car. Decreased braking distances in adverse weather for a majority of drivers is an unintended benefit.

But can a person out-brake their ABS system? The answer is yes.

You're putting words into my mouth and tossing in an ad hominem for measure. Smarten up...
Blah Blah Blah? Ok, proof card.
It's not opinion and has been tested, hand it over.

....Oh, wait, now you're talking factory cars with racing slicks put on... My how the terms change from post to post.
Oh well, you made the claim it's a fact, and has been proven, hand it over.

FYI there's an edit button.
I just did it again.
 
Blah Blah Blah? Ok, proof card.
It's not opinion and has been tested, hand it over.

....Oh, wait, now you're talking factory cars with racing slicks put on... My how the terms change from post to post.
Oh well, you made the claim it's a fact, and has been proven, hand it over.

FYI there's an edit button.
I just did it again.

This isn't about ABS systems, this is about 4chan debate tactics.

If you want proof; go call a manufacturer. Even then, you'd argue it...
 
ABS or no ABS? Well, duh. ABS, please.

I was taught to properly treshold brake in driving school (which are, in my opinion, quite thorough in Germany) and was made to practice it like a moron. My old Nissan March didn't have ABS either, so I'm used to driving a car without it.

However, I'm no professional driver and I don't have an ego that's big enough to make me want to act like I was one. And while I'm one of those "no assists elitist" in video games, I sure as hell won't ever put my health (or that of others) at risk because of that. Most importantly, though, I only had to emergency brake once and it wasn't at a high speed or a very dangerous situation, but I already had a hard time properly performing the threshold braking. So, even though I know how to properly brake without ABS, I probably couldn't put that knowledge to good use in a situation that would really make me panic.
 
This isn't about ABS systems, this is about 4chan debate tactics.

If you want proof; go call a manufacturer. Even then, you'd argue it...

Yes it is.
I can't prove to you what someone can't do, that's the thing here. Even if I found full videos you'd just say "well he's not a good enough driver".

If you want to call it undeniable fact, you should have proof. And I won't be calling manufactures, I've decided to claim I'm a real-world race driver today. ;)
 
On a completely dry, consistent surface (a race track, for example) then yes, a person can outbrake an ABS system. I remember reading an article about this, and on dry pavement the driver was capable of outbraking the ABS system, but couldn't on a wet road. In the real world, with different kinds of pavement/rain/bumps/cracks/oddly worn tires, ect ect, no. The only times that not having ABS really helps is on loose gravel/snow/sand that type of thing, and even then, it requires a general knowledge of how these things work.

We are, however, forgetting a VERY important element of the whole discussion, and that is the objective of an ABS system.


It was not originally intended to reduce stopping distances. The objective of ABS is to let the car retain it's ability to steer in a panic braking situation.

90% of the population would just slam on the brakes in a panic situation, and therefore lock the brakes and go straight into the back of what they're trying to avoid. With an ABS system, you still retain some of the control, and can turn to avoid whatever is in your way, and AS A RESULT of not keeping the wheels locked, braking distances are reduced, compared to locked wheels.

So, from a general perspective, ABS systems do indeed reduce braking distances for the average driver, on the average driving conditions, but strictly speaking about the absolute fastest way possible to slow down a car without any outside factors like weather and poorly maintained roads, a properly proportioned braking system and threshold braking is capable of outbraking an abs system.

Having said that, I personally prefer no ABS, simply because I don't like the way they feel. In the same way as traction control and automatic transmissions.
 
On a completely dry, consistent surface (a race track, for example) then yes, a person can outbrake an ABS system. I remember reading an article about this, and on dry pavement the driver was capable of outbraking the ABS system, but couldn't on a wet road. In the real world, with different kinds of pavement/rain/bumps/cracks/oddly worn tires, ect ect, no. The only times that not having ABS really helps is on loose gravel/snow/sand that type of thing, and even then, it requires a general knowledge of how these things work.

We are, however, forgetting a VERY important element of the whole discussion, and that is the objective of an ABS system.


It was not originally intended to reduce stopping distances. The objective of ABS is to let the car retain it's ability to steer in a panic braking situation.

90% of the population would just slam on the brakes in a panic situation, and therefore lock the brakes and go straight into the back of what they're trying to avoid. With an ABS system, you still retain some of the control, and can turn to avoid whatever is in your way, and AS A RESULT of not keeping the wheels locked, braking distances are reduced, compared to locked wheels.

So, from a general perspective, ABS systems do indeed reduce braking distances for the average driver, on the average driving conditions, but strictly speaking about the absolute fastest way possible to slow down a car without any outside factors like weather and poorly maintained roads, a properly proportioned braking system and threshold braking is capable of outbraking an abs system.

Having said that, I personally prefer no ABS, simply because I don't like the way they feel. In the same way as traction control and automatic transmissions.
An ABS can be programmed to execute perfect threshold braking every time, just as "Launch Control" can execute perfect launches.
A human can't do better than threshold, and ABS can (and is) programmed to changes distributions to individual wheels, which a driver cannot control.
So an ABS can do what a human can do, except better.
 
EDIT: Deleted my post. Kind of unrelated to the issue, since we're discussing what works better in general driving, not tracking driving.



Basically I think what it comes down to is on public roads and every day life, ABS is more effective and safer, but no-ABS is more effective at getting the most out of a car at a track, because you can do a lot more with the brakes than simply slow down.
 
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Typical BS article from TTAC. A car rolling over is more a combination of poor design, high center of gravity and poor planning by the driver than it ever is due to a braking system.

It's exactly the same crap people were spouting about seatbelts and airbags, both of which have been claimed to kill (and, if you're really unlucky, probably do on very, very rare occasion) and both of which have saved probably millions of lives.

Next they'll be saying that manual transmissions are dangerous.

Oh wait, they've done that one already.
 
When I was younger, I'd have quite liked ABS on a couple of occasions. I didn't have it, but I didn't come to any particular grief. I'd have quite liked the driver who piled into the back of me a couple years ago to have ABS, but he didn't and he wrote his car off (mine was fine). My current cars have ABS, but the MX-3's system has stopped working since I upgraded the friction surfaces and tyres and I don't recall the BMW's system kicking in... ever. Our MX-5s didn't have ABS but there were no occasions where ABS vs no ABS even cropped up. Meh.

I can't say which I prefer. I will, though, say that anyone who's relying on ABS to decelerate/avoid or threshold braking to stop has already failed to observe their surroundings correctly, anticipate a hazard or is driving faster than the maximum for the current conditions and situation and has failed in their duty as a driver on public highways. The last time I even pushed the stop pedal far enough to constitute above-normal braking was in 2006, and that was because I was driving faster than the maximum for the current situation and though I'd observed and anticipated the hazard I hadn't acted appropriately for my observation.


Oh, this hornet's nest? Never saw it before in my life.
 
The last time I even pushed the stop pedal far enough to constitute above-normal braking was in 2006, and that was because I was driving faster than the maximum for the current situation and though I'd observed and anticipated the hazard I hadn't acted appropriately for my observation.

Nobody's perfect ;)

You've actually got me thinking now about each time (well, the main ones I remember) I've emergency braked in a given scenario.

Once was on a country road, in the Fiesta, probably doing around 50mph. I came around the corner to find a pheasant in the middle of the road. Braked hard to miss it, locked up, hit it anyway. Didn't damage the car, did damage the pheasant.

Another time was on a wet country road, again Fiesta, this time only doing about 30mph. Easy right hand corner, slightly tighter left, but when I braked for the left the wheels locked instantly. I can only assume there was some diesel spilled or something as I wasn't braking that hard, nor was I panicked in any way. Car went straight on, luckily there was a road on the outside of the corner that I went up. ABS would have been helpful then to allow me to steer.

Next one, MX5, doing around 30mph. Line of traffic going the other way, and a car pulled straight out from behind a truck into my lane. Didn't lock up, didn't need ABS. MX5's brakes weren't that strong anyway...

Last one I remember was the motorway/night time/Panda one I mentioned earlier in the thread. Everyone doing 70-odd, everyone leaving a gap. Traffic 1/4 mile ahead brakes for some reason, typical compound effect happens, by the time cars ahead are braking it's full emergency stops from 70mph. I see cars 5 ahead doing that so I do the same.

Struggling to remember whether the ABS kicked in or not - I don't recall it doing so but to be fair my mind was on other things! Either way I stopped with a couple of car lengths gap and the car behind did the same. Am I glad I had ABS? Definitely. Whether it was used or not it's nice to know it's there.
 
I've locked brakes accidentally ONCE in a vehicle without ABS... I've had ABS come on one time accidentally but not at a time that lockup would've had any real ill effect, I was just too hard on the pedal. Oh, I take that back. I also had ABS come on one other time "by accident" and it couldn't do a damn thing to save me from the idiot who had turned in front of me as I entered an intersection doing 45mph. I have a feeling that pheasant would've still been hit if your Fiesta had ABS.

I will say though that when I'm driving a vehicle that doesn't have ABS, I take a mental note of that at all times and purposely increase all space I have for stopping.

So really I agree with those who say ABS causes more accidents than it stops. Is it something I *like* to have on my car? Sure, until I find myself on snow, where ABS just goes nuts and the car actually stops quicker if you breathe off the brakes enough to stop activating it. Daily? Sure. Track car? Depends on the ABS system. Winter rat? Nope, don't want no ABS.
 
I have a feeling that pheasant would've still been hit if your Fiesta had ABS.

Hard to say, it's an "ifs" and "buts" scenario. By the time I went over it I was going a fairly low speed after having locked up. Would I stopped with ABS? Potentially. Could I have turned to avoid it with ABS? Certainly. I can't remember whether I attempted to turn at the time (this was five or six years ago now) but given that it was a pheasant and not a child I probably wouldn't have taken significant avoiding action.

Turn the scenario around and ask whether I'd prefer ABS if it had been a child (hypothetical, obviously - I was in the middle of nowhere) and I'd certainly say yes. Some things you want all the help you can to avoid.

I'll also add though that better than any ABS system is having great brakes in the first place. The Fiesta wasn't bad for a basic car. Light weight helped. The Mazda's brakes had great feel but not much power. The Panda is pretty good, no complaints so far.

The Audi TT-S I drove on a track day in Dubai was awesome. Never used brakes that powerful before and you get to really appreciate their strength braking from around 130mph down to about 40mph at the end of a long straight. And with sticky tyres it never got close to triggering the ABS.
 
I'll also add though that better than any ABS system is having great brakes tires in the first place.
Fixed.

99% of brakes are capable of locking up the wheels in a panic stop situation. Better brakes won't do anything for your panic stopping distance. Tires will.
 
99% of brakes are capable of locking up the wheels in a panic stop situation. Better brakes won't do anything for your panic stopping distance. Tires will.

Better brakes, as better in braking feel, will do a lot especially on slippery surfaces. I've driven three cars extensively and one once.

My own old Volvo 240, no ABS, but four piston calipers in the front and two piston ones in the rear. Incredibly good brakes when it comes to stopping power but even better when it comes to feel. The power increase is as gradual as one might hope for and modulating them is really easy. I've had to do an emergency braking from 60 km/h on a completely icy road and locking up wasn't a problem at all once I had found the critical spot. This car makes it possible to have the wheels moving slower than the car without locking up.

My dad's old Saab 900, ABS, no idea what kind of a brake design but the feel was very similar to the 240 with the exception of not having to think how much to brake in tight situations. I have no doubts about a non-ABS 900 being fully manageable.

My dad's current Volvo V70, ABS, again no idea about the design. Tricky in hard brakings if one isn't familiar with it as the stopping power is there but it needs far more pedal travel than either of the other two, my 240 is already coming to a stop with a quick rate before the V70's brakes even begin slowing the car down. It would probably be easy to brake even with no ABS, at least it wouldn't lock up before warning...

...unlike our company car, the dreaded Toyota Yaris (fortunately with ABS) I took on a short drive some time back. Coming out of the parking lot to the road I barely had my foot on the pedal but nearly hit my head on the wheel. Everything or nothing. Unbelievable touchy brakes, it would probably be a real handful without ABS on an icy road as there would be perhaps one inch of travel between no brakes and all wheels locked up.

Much of the easy modulation of the 240 and 900 probably comes down to the fact that they were both originally designed long before the invention of ABS which has just been added on top of the original brakes. The more modern ones seem to rely more on the fact that no matter how much the driver brakes, ABS will save the situation.
 
Better brakes, as better in braking feel, will do a lot especially on slippery surfaces...no ABS, but four piston calipers in the front and two piston ones in the rear. Incredibly good brakes...when it comes to feel.

Good thing you mentioned solid mounted calipers ;).



Now, for me? No ABS. This is because I am a driving enthusiast (to say the least) and can threshold brake in any given situation. It is a subconscious act to me. This is something that not many others can claim, especially not "regular" drivers and especially not in emergency situations. On the other hand, I would be allot more uneasy if it weren't for most other drivers on the road having ABS.
Also, the pedal feel for cars with ABS is crap.
 
Typical BS article from TTAC. A car rolling over is more a combination of poor design, high center of gravity and poor planning by the driver than it ever is due to a braking system.

It's exactly the same crap people were spouting about seatbelts and airbags, both of which have been claimed to kill (and, if you're really unlucky, probably do on very, very rare occasion) and both of which have saved probably millions of lives.

Next they'll be saying that manual transmissions are dangerous.

Oh wait, they've done that one already.
I do agree in some situations seat belts and more likely, airbags can worsen injuries. The main benefit from airbags is for people without seat belts, side air bags would be more helpful, but those are harder to get, go figure.

ABS is the same trade off, good and bad. I can say with certainty I never expected snap over-steer from a FWD, especially under full braking power, and snap over-steer is the easiest way to crash there is.
 
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