Addiction

[Danoff]

Oh absolutely, but what reason is there to expect a brain under the influence of powerful chemicals (be they native and not sufficiently counteracted by other native chemicals, or introduced through consumption) to perform any degree of reasoning?

Not much. If someone wants to scientifically diagnose themselves with a substance addiction, they should probably sober up long enough to do it.

 

[Dennisch]

That's non-falsifiable. I could keep trying drug after drug, and if I didn't get addicted, you'd just say that I haven't tried the right one for me yet. But the assumption is that there is one out there. Why are you making this assumption? I'm supposed to believe you that there are drugs out there that will be this potent for me, but you can't name them.


Edit:

It is as though you're saying that people who are addicted had no choice. And people who are not addicted are simply not trying the right drug. This is a religious belief.

You're no superman. A week of heroin and you are addicted.

And of course people have a choice. I chose to start smoking. I chose to do drugs. But the choice to quit is something different. You need to fight an urge that wasn't there before.

 

[Danoff]

You're no superman. A week of heroin and you are addicted.

I'm sure I would be. But then I'm also relatively confident that I could break it. The linked article in the opening post for example describes heroin as being an easier addiction to break than cigarettes or potato chips. Breaking a cigarette addiction is so pedestrian these days that people do it without any assistance (apparently about 1.3M per year in the US quit smoking).

 

[Dennisch]

I'm sure I would be. But then I'm also relatively confident that I could break it. The linked article in the opening post for example describes heroin as being an easier addiction to break than cigarettes or potato chips. Breaking a cigarette addiction is so pedestrian these days that people do it without any assistance (apparently about 1.3M per year in the US quit smoking).

Of course there is a decent chance you could break it, but there's also a decent chance you don't want to, even though your wife and children are begging you. And months later you're jacking it, in San Diego! As I said, you don't know how you respond to the euphoric rush of all that chemical goodness. My dad has lung cancer, most likely because of him smoking Van Nelle Zware Shag most of his life. I already quit smoking before we heard that news. My dad did cut down a lot, but he still smokes cigarettes. My mother talks about quitting but keeps on smoking. My brother bounces around between smoking cigarettes and smoking weed.

You would think that hearing that a loved one has a terrible (preventable) disease, the choice would be easy.

On the topic of getting people out of their habit, I am an enormous supporter of the cold turkey method, preferably while in a medical induced coma. There was a trial here quite some time ago, and it was highly successful. People are in a coma, have constant care, and some of the patients will go into a sauna go sweat out the goodies and speed up the process. I will search for it, but I think it was at least 15 years ago, because a buddy of mine informed about it for his speed problem. And with that I realise that it was 20 years ago. Time goes fast.

 

[Danoff]

Of course there is a decent chance you could break it, but there's also a decent chance you don't want to, even though your wife and children are begging you.

...a choice.

That's ultimately what it comes down to doesn't it... choosing whether or not to stay addicted. I think a lot of that might have to do with what's going on in your life, and what your priorities are. With the right set of circumstances, I could see wanting to stay addicted. With the right set of circumstances I could see wanting to die. There are lot of horrific possibilities in life.

It does seem like a lot of addiction has more to do with everything that isn't the addiction, which undermines the strength and desire to break the addiction.

 

[MatskiMonk]

relatively confident that I could break it. The linked article in the opening post

... Having seen the God thread I'm not going to take up a discussion with you on this point, but it appears in the methodology behind that post, that you should not treat the article as absolute fact, rather a way of looking how we consider addiction.

.. Having said that, if you're suggesting an element of addiction is circumstantial, I'd agree.

 

[Dennisch]

a choice

Yes, but you think that it's healthy you making that choice, but it is an altered version of your mind that is controlling you, and that is what you seem to not understand. Drugs can and will chance your state of mind to the point that it is really no longer your choice to make.

 

[Danoff]

but it appears in the methodology behind that post, that you should not treat the article as absolute fact, rather a way of looking how we consider addiction.

Yea certainly. That article is somewhat dubious. I just think it's an interesting perspective.

Yes, but you think that it's healthy you making that choice, but it is an altered version of your mind that is controlling you, and that is what you seem to not understand. Drugs can and will chance your state of mind to the point that it is really no longer your choice to make.

I understand that it's an addicted me that would be dealing with that choice. Do you have some kind of evidence to suggest that the human brain is necessarily so susceptible to complete addiction? You seem to describe the effects of these substances as identity altering, barring your free will. I've never seen anything to suggest that this is true.

 

[ryzno]

You too, do explain.

Where do I begin?
My brain/mind/subconscious/whatever has been controlled by some pharmaceutical or illegal drug since I was 6...
I was on ritalin from 6-12. I started smoking weed, cigarettes and drinking at 15. I started smoking crack at 16 to 19. Worst 2 1/2 years of my life... I have been locked up 14 times for possession and other stupidity. After serving 8 months, my longest time incarcerated, I had to figure out how kick crack. Yeah after 8 months sober I still wanted it! Go figure! Did I mention I've ODed before? Well guess what I went back to? Weed. I've become very angry lately about my job I've quit for the 3rd time... So I was drinking a lot and have gone from 12 to 16-18 16oz. beers a day. I do look at my life and wonder WTF am I doing. My girl isn't happy I'm drunk and high every waking minute I'm off and I'm not happy I was working 60-90 hours a week. I really do want to quit, I'd like a CDL, if I gotta hear crap for being on the road all the time I'd like better pay. I had an interesting conversation with a police officer about ritalin/kids and what he said he thinks leads to other addictions.
Is it the ritalin? Is it I'm angry about my mom, not knowing who she is and being born a crack baby? Or am I simply a lost soul? Do I hate my current life?
I had 2 people here reach out to me last time I posted about trying to quit, I appreciate them for trying to help, I never went this deep talking to them and I didn't want to admit my failure.
My relationship with my girl is on the brinks cause of my drinking.
I honestly don't know what to do, my brain screams F it, get wasted, my sober brain says you need a good job, don't give up! I then go into the the why bother circle...
Hope my post makes sense.

 

[Dennisch]

I understand that it's an addicted me that would be dealing with that choice. Do you have some kind of evidence to suggest that the human brain is necessarily so susceptible to complete addiction? You seem to describe the effects of these substances as identity altering, barring your free will. I've never seen anything to suggest that this is true.

Identity altering is too big of a word. It's you with a mask on, and that mask gives you the choice to do drugs, and everything else comes second to that. The voice of reason is still there, telling you that it's wrong what you're doing, but the voice of drugs is louder. I have been around addicts all my life, and still am. Some people who I have known all my life I can't trust any more, because if they get the chance, they'll steal everything from me. The speed addict, he changed from a party buddy to someone I couldn't leave alone in my room, but is now once again one of my closest friends. My brother was a coke addict, I still have a safe with damage on it of him trying to steal my money.

People change once the drugs controls them.

 

[Danoff]

Where do I begin?
My brain/mind/subconscious/whatever has been controlled by some pharmaceutical or illegal drug since I was 6...
I was on ritalin from 6-12. I started smoking weed, cigarettes and drinking at 15. I started smoking crack at 16 to 19. Worst 2 1/2 years of my life... I have been locked up 14 times for possession and other stupidity. After serving 8 months, my longest time incarcerated, I had to figure out how kick crack. Yeah after 8 months sober I still wanted it! Go figure! Did I mention I've ODed before? Well guess what I went back to? Weed. I've become very angry lately about my job I've quit for the 3rd time... So I was drinking a lot and have gone from 12 to 16-18 16oz. beers a day. I do look at my life and wonder WTF am I doing. My girl isn't happy I'm drunk and high every waking minute I'm off and I'm not happy I was working 60-90 hours a week. I really do want to quit, I'd like a CDL, if I gotta hear crap for being on the road all the time I'd like better pay. I had an interesting conversation with a police officer about ritalin/kids and what he said he thinks leads to other addictions.
Is it the ritalin? Is it I'm angry about my mom, not knowing who she is and being born a crack baby? Or am I simply a lost soul? Do I hate my current life?
I had 2 people here reach out to me last time I posted about trying to quit, I appreciate them for trying to help, I never went this deep talking to them and I didn't want to admit my failure.
My relationship with my girl is on the brinks cause of my drinking.
I honestly don't know what to do, my brain screams F it, get wasted, my sober brain says you need a good job, don't give up! I then go into the the why bother circle...
Hope my post makes sense.

So much of life is non-linear. Getting some part of your life in order makes it easier to get another part in order. Getting some part of your life ruined makes it easier to get some other part of your life ruined. The idea that "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" is a manifestation of a larger truth, which is that obstacles compound, and advantage can compound as well.

It's easy to put yourself into a position where you feel impossibly far behind (because of how exaggerated the effects of falling behind are) such that you can't possibly catch up to where you want to be. And then I think it's somewhat natural to look for comfort, even if it puts you farther behind, because, as you said, you just don't care anymore. But the nice thing about being at or near rock bottom is that every little thing you put in order, even the smallest detail, does so much more good.

So pick a place to start. Pick the smallest thing about your life that you don't like and think needs fixing, and fix it. Pick another one in a week or two. it'll be easier because of what you did today.

Identity altering is too big of a word. It's you with a mask on, and that mask gives you the choice to do drugs, and everything else comes second to that. The voice of reason is still there, telling you that it's wrong what you're doing, but the voice of drugs is louder. I have been around addicts all my life, and still am. Some people who I have known all my life I can't trust any more, because if they get the chance, they'll steal everything from me. The speed addict, he changed from a party buddy to someone I couldn't leave alone in my room, but is now once again one of my closest friends. My brother was a coke addict, I still have a safe with damage on it of him trying to steal my money.

People change once the drugs controls them.

I question whether the drug is ever in control. Perhaps what you're seeing is just these people at their most real. This is what it looks like from them to face adversity, this is their personal ethic and discipline on display.

 

[Dennisch]

No, I am fairly certain that it is the drugs. There isn't any other way for me to explain it other than letting you become an addict to see for yourself what happens, but that would be stupid.

 

[Danoff]

No, I am fairly certain that it is the drugs. There isn't any other way for me to explain it other than letting you become an addict to see for yourself what happens, but that would be stupid.

I've had a bunch of drugs that people get addicted to. But I've never gotten addicted to them. I dropped 30 lbs and kept it off just because I felt like trying. I think maybe this is just not something I'm particularly susceptible to. But I think it's deeper than that.

 

[Dennisch]

I've had a bunch of drugs that people get addicted to. But I've never gotten addicted to them.

Same as me, apart from the weed and tobacco, those I liked for a long time.

I know for a fact that if 2 things didn't happen to me, I would have picked up an addiction of chemicals as it was already turning into a weekly habit. 1, getting a girl who never did drugs and let me do things to her I never did before. Giggity. And 2 was seeing someone die at the medics post after we picked him up off the floor and dragged him there.

But I think that 2 was sobering enough for me. There are few things that stay with me that still touch me, and seeing someone young going out in a pretty gruesome way, someone who was my age, doing exactly what I was doing. I had good drugs, he didn't. And perhaps that was the (your) point of my choice not to get addicted.

 

[PocketZeven]

No, I am fairly certain that it is the drugs. There isn't any other way for me to explain it other than letting you become an addict to see for yourself what happens, but that would be stupid.

I disagree there. People experience drugs in much different ways. Some people are just more receptive to addiction. I have had sessions, where others couldnt stop till everything was gone and I stopped halfway, because enough is enough. Similar to gambling, alcohol or gaming addicitons. But that doesnt mean I solely blame the users for addiction.

 

[ryzno]

Has hit me again...
I know some of y'all know I was trying to pass a DoT physical, well.
I was doing good for while, now... back too 2 6's, packs of ciggs and blunts a day... plus the 4 meds... I've been getting sick from everything combined.

I had a job and truck lined up after the summer heat, my girl got into an accident last month. No job, no truck...

n/m end sob story
#itsmyfault

 

[kikie]

There is this guy in the fitness, who is in his thirties and probably has a severe smartphone addiction. When he is working out he is always checking his smartphone even during exercises. Even going from exercise to exercise he is using his smartphone.
I heard a story about this guy that when he was at the bakery to get his daily bread he was checking his smartphone every single second as long as he was in the bakery.

I wonder how he would react if someone took away his smartphone.

 

[Dotini]

I have gambled, smoked, drank alcohol, used various drugs, play videogames and have concluded I am not prone to addiction.
My theory is that some people are prone to it no matter what kind of addiction. I have seen people going from addiction to addiction. They however succesfully kicked one addiction only to fall into another addiction. The key however is that its better to be addicted to something that isnt harmfull to yourself and others.

This pretty well describes my status on addiction, though I would throw in lust, gluttony and sloth as well into my collection of sometime addictions, and not deny that I am prone to addiction.

My way of mastering my addictions is to have a supreme, overriding addiction that controls all others, what I recognize as my obsessive compulsion. Mind you, I have never been clinically diagnosed with OCD, and I'm unsure how OCD differs from addiction, if at all. My life-long obsessions have been, in order, tangible success in tournament chess, amateur sports car racing, international mountain climbing, national kart racing and now tournament fencing. I think none of these things can be easily accomplished when encumbered by impairment.

@Danoff

Don't despair, however, no matter what your addiction is. The large majority of addicts give up every kind of addiction. So can you. That most people do it, one way or another, tells you that it lies within your power.

I tend to agree with this encomium linked from your OP.

 

[PocketZeven]

Has hit me again...
I know some of y'all know I was trying to pass a DoT physical, well.
I was doing good for while, now... back too 2 6's, packs of ciggs and blunts a day... plus the 4 meds... I've been getting sick from everything combined.

I had a job and truck lined up after the summer heat, my girl got into an accident last month. No job, no truck...

n/m end sob story
#itsmyfault

Damn man. I wish your girlfriend a quick recovery. Are you in trouble or have you built up a buffer?

 

[ryzno]

WARNING *Post contains withdrawal symptoms comments*

I wish your girlfriend a quick recovery.

She's doing good, she just had minor bruising from the belt which has pretty much disappeared. We got another car which screwed me getting another truck.

Are you in trouble or have you built up a buffer?

If kissing the porcelain throne for an hour and shaking till 2 of my 4 blood medications for the day and a few beers kick in then yeah, I've built up a buffer./s

6/25 I started a planned slow detox from alcohol and started my blood pressure medication for the physical(they don't get along well)
7/21 My girl gets into accident
7/25 I get fired for a combination of things including the physical
8/10-11 I partied way too hard on my birthday
I've been on a downward spiral since...

She said she's gonna ride it out and won't leave but she's not willing to help me get help either, again buying another car screwed everything...

It's gotten beyond the point of me wanting to quit, it seems my body has become physically dependent on alcohol. I can go without the weed and not get sick, go figure...

I want to put the blame on so many things, the Doc even asked why I'm so angry and I couldn't give her an answer.
I feel like I can't do anything without getting ****ed up, my brain hits a hundred thoughts a second that I don't want to remember...

 

[PocketZeven]

WARNING *Post contains withdrawal symptoms comments*
She's doing good, she just had minor bruising from the belt which has pretty much disappeared. We got another car which screwed me getting another truck.

If kissing the porcelain throne for an hour and shaking till 2 of my 4 blood medications for the day and a few beers kick in then yeah, I've built up a buffer./s

6/25 I started a planned slow detox from alcohol and started my blood pressure medication for the physical(they don't get along well)
7/21 My girl gets into accident
7/25 I get fired for a combination of things including the physical
8/10-11 I partied way too hard on my birthday
I've been on a downward spiral since...

She said she's gonna ride it out and won't leave but she's not willing to help me get help either, again buying another car screwed everything...

It's gotten beyond the point of me wanting to quit, it seems my body has become physically dependent on alcohol. I can go without the weed and not get sick, go figure...

I want to put the blame on so many things, the Doc even asked why I'm so angry and I couldn't give her an answer.
I feel like I can't do anything without getting ****ed up, my brain hits a hundred thoughts a second that I don't want to remember...

Obviously you are looking for an escape in alchohol and partying. I dont know what medicine you are taking, but you should double your efforts on finding a job and resist temptations. I would offer you a job, but that wouldnt be a practical solution.

 

[TVR27]

I gave up drinking in December of 2018 it was hard but I realised it was a waste of money but drinking wasn't the hardest thing to give up Coca Cola was even harder to give up I don't know why it must be the sugar or the taste I had to try 3 times to give up drinking Coca Cola.

The main problem now is whenever I go out to eat having to be asked what I want to drink and I try my best to say no.

It takes a lot of willpower for some addictions and less for others.

 

[HenrySwanson]

I gave up drinking in December of 2018 it was hard but I realised it was a waste of money but drinking wasn't the hardest thing to give up Coca Cola was even harder to give up I don't know why it must be the sugar or the taste I had to try 3 times to give up drinking Coca Cola.

The main problem now is whenever I go out to eat having to be asked what I want to drink and I try my best to say no.

It takes a lot of willpower for some addictions and less for others.

Did you do it on your own may I ask?

 

[TVR27]

Did you do it on your own may I ask?

Yes I did it on my own.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Yes I did it on my own.

Excellent. Care to share tips?

 

[TVR27]

Excellent. Care to share tips?

1. Find the reason for why you drink

2. Remind yourself of all the terrible hangovers and times you got sick

3. Keep away from places that sell alcohol.

4. Spend time with sober people some times you just have to get away from drinkers.

5. Think of the money you are saving by not drinking and tell yourself it's worth it.

6. You need willpower and self control.

7. To quit drink is different for everyone.

8. Find a hobby or something else you would like to do to keep your mind off drinking.