Advice for improving cornering?

[georgiebest]

Hi all.
I am looking for tips on how to improve my lap times in general.
I enjoy racing games, but I have never been particularly brilliant at them, compared to some of the more competitive members on this forum.

I would appreciate any tips on how to improve cornering speed. I see videos of people taking corners in gears much higher than I take them, and with much greater entry, mid and exit speeds.

What is the secret to this? I think a thing I am very much guilty of is accelerating too much whilst turning. Does this really have a big detrimental impact on your turning ability? Even though I am not spinning out of control, i just seem to drift off the track when I try to be quick like I see other people.

Is it faster to brake to corner speed, and then only just maintain that speed, so the tyres are only working on turning? Or is it faster to apply as much throttle as possible without causing the car to lose control. I am quite good at modulating the throttle, but I don't know if I am going seriously wrong by trying to give it gas all the time.

Also how do you guys know which gear to take a corner in? Is it just practice or do you always take it a gear higher than the computer recommends?

I currently play with an old PS3 controller, that doesn't even have vibrate so it is difficult at the moment to judge when I am at the "limit" would buying a DS3 be worth while? I am considering just buying a driving force GT wheel, can any one tell me if that wheel is good, and will I be faster with a wheel and enjoy the game more?

Thanks in advance

 

[McClarenDesign]

I use a Ds3, and can help. Im also on my phone, so it may be a few hours.

I can tell you that its all in your head. I'll elaborate more when I can get to my PC. Send me a PM and I'll answer all your questions.

----Ok, I'm good. Here we go.

Ideally, going into the turn, you should already be at the speed you need to carry through the turn, accelerating only after the apex. You should be aware of your drivetrain layout, as this will determine exactly when and how you can accelerate. FF? Wait for the front tires to pass, and let them pull you out. FR? Point, then click, once the rear tires start clearing the apex. MR? Use the understeer to glide out of the turns.

When exiting the turn, only apply the throttle when you know you won't have to lift.

When going through the turn, it should feel as though the turn is launching you out of it, similar to the way a child grabs on to a sign post and runs around and around, using the centrifugal g-forces to put a smile on his face. When he lets go of the post, he's using that same force to fling him in whatever direction he chooses.

Go outside and try it a few times. Yes, you'll look a bit daft, but you'll get an appreciation for the forces at work.

Finally, don't pay too much attention to others. Learn to be comfortable with your own skills before you try keeping up with others. Run time trials with your ghost over a wide variety of tracks, with a wide variety of cars, and start slow. Run 10 laps with the slowest cars first, and build up to the faster cars. Crawl before you run.

Many laugh at the Citroen 2CV because of it's low power, but that low power is exactly what teaches you precision. Once you've learned the fastest lines, you can then focus on going through the turns faster and faster. Racing your ghost will show you where you're losing time, and why. It's not exciting, and can sometimes be a chore, but you will most definitely be better off for it. If you stick with it, you'll also find yourself much stronger mentally.

When racing online, find a group that is better than you. Yes, you'll lose, and losing isn't fun, but you'll also learn. Often the competition is only marginally faster/slower than the others around them, simply because they're too occupied with a) keeping in front of you, or b) catching up to you.

Once you've mastered the cars and tracks, you can move on to more advanced techniques, much like what you saw the pros doing. Learn about friction circles. Listen to your tires- they'll tell you everything you need to know. Don't drive at 100%, because it simply cannot be done over multiple laps without injuring the car or another driver. Learn about tactics- defense and offense.

Once you've grasped yourself, you can begin to understand the cars. No car is without weakness, and exploiting those weaknesses is how you win. By sampling every style of car, you'll have an intimate knowledge of what to look for.

Above all else, make mistakes. Screw up as much as possible. Learn what doesn't work, so you know what to avoid next time, and how to do it.

Also, there's GTP Racing School. PM an instructor or two, so you can get some one on one time. I also highly recommend clicking the link in my sig to A Beginner's Guide to GT5, the Universe, and Everything. That site can help answer a few questions, and perhaps even point out a few things you never knew you were doing.

 

[Bluntified]

Everyone's entry and exit gear is going to be different depending on car and if the transmission was adjusted.

For cornering, you should really keep a driving line. Break a bit early and gentle throttle out of turn. Keep practicing, every time you take the same corner brake later and throttle a little harder. After you get the "perfect" combination, you'll be able to take on almost any corner. Its all about practice though.

If you're not sure about what gear to be in (makes an impact on cornering), you should look at the suggested gear indicator (the flashing red number next to your gear).

One last tip to not let your car slip or screech, that's a sign of loosing grip and will screw up your corner. When you get the hang of things, you'll be able to just feel the corner and not need to worry about any of this.

Oh ya, get a controller that vibrates! As for the wheel, I would make sure you know the physics of driving before making a purchase. It does make things easier but has a learning curve that a lot of people don't want. I use a G27 btw.

 

[velly]

slow in, fast out is a starting point.
also trying to make sure you are using little turning angle (over sturning through a corner will scrub off speed)
Braking in a straight line before the turn...make sure you are off the brakes before you turn in. when you can see the exit of the corner, then you should be applying the throttle.
It is much easier on a wheel, i have been using my wheel for 6 months now and found i can carry much more speed now with a wheel

 

[McClarenDesign]

Also, Braking- Pro vs. Noob.

 

[Denilson]

There's a lot to be said about this, and most have been said.. One thing that I emidiately wanted to point out (before I read what controller you use I might add) is steering wheel input/speed (As "velly" pointed out)..

Brake early, find correct turn in, use as little steering wheel input as possible, hit the apex, appy throttle.. Aim for the outher curbs (given the turn is not part of a teqnical series of turns where you might need to compromize your exit depending on how the next corner is set up and how you want to enter that one).

A tip is to look at the apex while turning in, and once you know you'll hit the apex (a few 10th/second prior your car actually reach the apex, lift your gaze, and look at the exit while comming in to the apex.. Kind of like an "overlap" if that makes any sense.

Apart from this, there's also tuning.. But I guess that's the next step for you by the way you ask the questions. But tuning is defenetly something that can help cornering speeds a lot. 👍

Good luck!

 

[McClarenDesign]

Learn the car before you start tuning. A lot of problems can be solved by changing your technique, and a lot of problems can be created by not knowing/feeling the changes made to the car.

 

[byegad]

It depends on the corner, car and tyres.

On RS I'd expect to be full on the power from just after half way around the 'average' corner. On CH I'd be feeding power in very gently on the exit.

With a full blown racing car, 700pp+ I'd be looking to brake very late, turn hard and be flat on the power very early. This is because these cars use big brakes and tyres and decelerate and accelerate very quickly. In F1 this effect has changed the fastest lines in corners, squaring off many of the racing lines compared to the one you see in GT5.

The thing is if you can power up early on the exit from corners you carry more speed down the straight.

 

[georgiebest]

Wow, I wasn't expecting to have so many in-depth posts so quickly, thanks a lot guys.

I think I understand all the basics pretty well, like braking in a straight line and slow in, fast out. I have all the licenses done up to at least silver, so I am not a complete novice, I am looking more to refine my driving now.

A thing I have heard a lot of use the least amount of steering wheel input as possible. This is something that could probably be controlled better with a wheel, but I don't fully understand the concept. Would it be better to take a corner at a slower speed using less steering inputs, or better to take it at a higher speed but having to use more steering input to stay on the driving line.

For example this is currently how I take corners. I do most braking in a straight line, then as I come off the brakes I start to steer into the corner. Once fully off the brakes I gently press the throttle to about 10-20% to maintain speed. At this point I am usually pressing the left analogue (steering) as far as it goes. From here I just increase/decrease throttle input to keep myself on the line, as build up throttle as I exit the corner.

This seems to be in contrast to what everyone says, as I am putting in maximum steering input from pretty much the time I get off the brakes till I am on the straight after the corner. The problem with using a controller is that not only is it difficult to modulate steering inputs some times, but also the game doesn't seem to steer as much as you press when you travel at speed. For example when traveling at 30mph with maximum steering input, the driver has pretty much full lock, as soon as you increase speed he begins unwinding on his own, does it still do this with a steering wheel?

Another question I have regarding my first point in the OP is this.
If you have two cars, tuned exactly the same way, and one of them is traveling at 40mph but gently accelerating as they turn, and another that is travelling at 50mph, but only feathering throttle to keep the same speed, which car would make the tightest turn (smallest radius)? This is assuming the car that is accelerating doesn't get to a speed above 50 mph.

The reason I ask this is because I always thought slower speed=greater turning ability, but as some of you have suggested, tyre loading impacts turning, and accelerating should decrease the tyres ability to turn, even if you aren't pushing it past the limit. 100% traction used to turn as apposed to 75% on turning and 25% accelerating. That's also ignoring the fact that accelerating takes weight off the front wheels, further reducing their turning ability.

Am I on the right lines? I think I am beginning to grasp things.
Would this be the perfect cornering then.
1. Brake in straight line.
2. As you come off the brakes turn in progressively (trail braking)
3. enter corner at the speed you want to keep throughout the corner (lets keep things simple with a constant radius corner for now)
4. apply ~10% throttle to maintain speed mid corner, so you are neither braking or accelerating.
5. hit apex
6. Begin to reduce steering input as you increase throttle.
7. drift to outside during exit while accelerating.

I hope you can all make sense of most of my post, some of the things I have tried to explain may be difficult to imagine/interpret.

Again, thanks for all the help!

edit:
I may go back to slower cars like people suggested to relearn proper technique, I have been using the f2007 a lot recently, and I think it may have spoiled my racing ability, as you can pretty much just throw the thing into corners aggressive and mash the power with no consequences.

 

[QB1o]

Pick a car you like and stick with it for a while.
Use tyres with realistic grip, such as comfort soft.

Then all you have to do is practice and practice and practice.

 

[iamjajo]

Get in touch with these guys and they can probably help your technique

http://www.jimrussell.com/

 

[georgiebest]

Just done a few laps around the ring in the Ford GT test car and I think I am getting better, I have found the car "sticks" to the road and turns much better when I am accelerating the car at all. I thought that it wouldn't have much of an impact originally, because it was not as if I was spinning out of control or anything, but even the subtle change has made a massive difference.

One thing I used that i never thought before was the tyre load information in the quick options. It is great just seeing how the cars react by turning side to side sharply, and how even if you can't see much happening to the car, there can be quite a lot of weight transfer and tyre overload happening.

Thanks again guys.

 

[thechosenwonton]

Brake earlier, and focus on your lines. If you brake to late, you'll be turning in to late, and your corner speed will suffer. If you brake on time, and turn in to late, the same thing happens.

I'm willing to bet you're trying to drive faster, and not more perfect (perfect is fast). So ditch the whole brake as late as possible, and just try and nail a perfect lap - by perfect I don't mean fast, I mean nail your lines around the track - view some replays to help you get an idea of where you should be hitting the corners.

Turn the driving line off; it's almost always a compromise, and sometimes is flat out wrong. When you get your lines down, then start focusing on the more advanced stuff like trail braking and rotating on the throttle - but I'd be willing to bet if you get your lines down, and LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO - not where you are going, you'll just get the other stuff as a result.

Really good car to practice with are the Mitsubishi Evo's - I say this because they reward correct corner speed, and punish late braking - the car should be "settled" when turning in; no sliding, no sideways stuff, just settled, and then turn in - don't jerk, as it will upset the car; brake to late, and the car will never be settled, and you lose time/speed. When its settled, you'll have the most grip and the fastest cornering speed; get on the throttle as soon as you can, again without sliding the car sideways.

Try that on Sport Hards, and use the Nordschliefe - its advanced, but if you can hit all your lines through there, then you can do it anywhere.

Also - you mentioned keep the throttle on in mid-corner to maintain speed - this is mostly wrong, unless its a very long corner - turning slows the car down, true, but you want to be completely off throttle in most cases until you are past the apex, then accelerate OUT. The last corner at Tsubuka is a good one to practice on - ideally, you brake straight, turn in LATE (a lot of people take the inside line and stay on the gas, which is slower), completely off the gas, and you will drift towards the apex as you slow down; once you hit the apex, nail it off - that one corner is good for .5 seconds if done perfectly, and its hard to master.

 

[ROYALEFATALE]

brake the least amount possible before the turn, and get back on the gas as soon as possible while still keeping it on the track during exit, if you're at full throttle and steer while still hitting the rumble strips on exit that's a good thing, if you're in the middle of the track through the whole turn it means you could be faster

 

[300SRT8Fan]

Camber helps. on most cars, 2.0 front and 1.0 back works well. if not try 1.5 front, .5 back. If that still doesn't work, just do .5 front and back. If that STILL doesn't work, ignore the message.

 

[georgiebest]

Brake earlier, and focus on your lines. If you brake to late, you'll be turning in to late, and your corner speed will suffer. If you brake on time, and turn in to late, the same thing happens.

I'm willing to bet you're trying to drive faster, and not more perfect (perfect is fast). So ditch the whole brake as late as possible, and just try and nail a perfect lap - by perfect I don't mean fast, I mean nail your lines around the track - view some replays to help you get an idea of where you should be hitting the corners.

Turn the driving line off; it's almost always a compromise, and sometimes is flat out wrong. When you get your lines down, then start focusing on the more advanced stuff like trail braking and rotating on the throttle - but I'd be willing to bet if you get your lines down, and LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO - not where you are going, you'll just get the other stuff as a result.

Really good car to practice with are the Mitsubishi Evo's - I say this because they reward correct corner speed, and punish late braking - the car should be "settled" when turning in; no sliding, no sideways stuff, just settled, and then turn in - don't jerk, as it will upset the car; brake to late, and the car will never be settled, and you lose time/speed. When its settled, you'll have the most grip and the fastest cornering speed; get on the throttle as soon as you can, again without sliding the car sideways.

Try that on Sport Hards, and use the Nordschliefe - its advanced, but if you can hit all your lines through there, then you can do it anywhere.

Also - you mentioned keep the throttle on in mid-corner to maintain speed - this is mostly wrong, unless its a very long corner - turning slows the car down, true, but you want to be completely off throttle in most cases until you are past the apex, then accelerate OUT. The last corner at Tsubuka is a good one to practice on - ideally, you brake straight, turn in LATE (a lot of people take the inside line and stay on the gas, which is slower), completely off the gas, and you will drift towards the apex as you slow down; once you hit the apex, nail it off - that one corner is good for .5 seconds if done perfectly, and its hard to master.

I agree, I've never really tried to brake late to gain speed. Braking late at most will gain you a few milliseconds per corner. Taking the correct line however can save tenths per corner.

From what I've read and seen you shouldn't be completely off the throttle.
Decelerating is the same whether it comes from the brakes or from no throttle input. One of the first things I was ever taught about racing games is to not brake during a corner. To give the maximum grip for turning in a corner, you should not be decelerating or accelerating is what I read on a website that McClaren posted earlier in this thread. Is that not right or am I still getting it wrong?

 

[thechosenwonton]

Again, it depends on the corner. For shorter corners, you want to use your turning to slow you - off throttle will put weight on the front wheels and help you turn to the apex. You only need to worry about trailing throttle on longer corners. So then it sounds like you could be braking a little later, then use turn-in to slow the car to the apex, and gas it out.

 

[Eric W]

Have you done the license tests? Corning techniques are cover there.

In the end it just takes a lot of practice to get better. One key to racing is to just race the track, not the competition.

 

[bdubclub]

Wow, you have a lot of questions, but it seems your main emphasis is on improving lap times. I would suggest, ditching the red gear flashy thingy and start searching out braking points. The fastest people on GT always use braking points, turn in points, and accel points. By points I mean landmarks, braking markers, basically anything that is easy for you to spot. You will find that your lap times will improve greatly after you start applying this technique. The red flashy thingy is just so inconsistent, the quicker you learn to drive without it, the better.
Another tip I have found to help me improve my speed is pick a spot about 100 yards out of a corner,(the end of the rumble strips work great for this most of the time) and mentally note your mph there every lap. This will help you with what is the best line out of that corner(corner exit is where you are going to find 75% of your time). Believe it or not, the driving line isn't always correct

So the three things every person new to GT should practice, corner exit, braking marks, and corner exit. 👍

 

[georgiebest]

I've been doing a lot of reading online and I've seen some points that could benefit most people.

At amateur and club level, the winner is normally the person with the best line through the corners, and who also gets on the power as early as possible.

Above this, at professional level the difference is corner entry speed.
Then what separates the top level drivers from the greats is all of the above been perfect, but also having a good mid-corner speed. This is what made Schumacher so good.

Keep improving on those 4 elements and your laptimes will greatly improve.

 

[McClarenDesign]

Time trials against your ghost will solve most issues. It will allow you to see what you're losing, and where.

 

[DGXR]

Lots of good stuff here. Here is my general approach:

Slow in, fast out, this is the most important thing. Period. Well, practice is more important but that goes without saying

Also, Any turn 90 degrees or over (easier turn), my path is usually curved and I try to maintain speed. Any turn over 90 degrees (sharper or approaching hairpin), I usually square it off by coming almost to a stop, sharp turn, then blast off, which creates a longer straightaway on the following section. Read the Skip Barber School technique from the GT3 booklet. It's like this, I will brake going straight and dive fairly deep into the back area of the turn, then do most of my turning while moving slowly, then blast off toward the next straight with an extremely late apex. It gives me fast laptimes and it annoys the hell out of others online, but that is not my problem. They are supposed to pass me wherever they can, if they can.

Finally, in any series of turns, focus on having the fastest exit speed from the last turn.

Yes tires and tuning (chassis, tranny, drivetrain, aero, aids, etc) will all have an effect on the turning ability and stability of yoru car but those are different questions entirely.

Good luck and have fun! 👍

 

[georgiebest]

Lots of good stuff here. Here is my general approach:

Slow in, fast out, this is the most important thing. Period. Well, practice is more important but that goes without saying

Also, Any turn 90 degrees or over (easier turn), my path is usually curved and I try to maintain speed. Any turn over 90 degrees (sharper or approaching hairpin), I usually square it off by coming almost to a stop, sharp turn, then blast off, which creates a longer straightaway on the following section. Read the Skip Barber School technique from the GT3 booklet. It's like this, I will brake going straight and dive fairly deep into the back area of the turn, then do most of my turning while moving slowly, then blast off toward the next straight with an extremely late apex. It gives me fast laptimes and it annoys the hell out of others online, but that is not my problem. They are supposed to pass me wherever they can, if they can.

Finally, in any series of turns, focus on having the fastest exit speed from the last turn.

Yes tires and tuning (chassis, tranny, drivetrain, aero, aids, etc) will all have an effect on the turning ability and stability of yoru car but those are different questions entirely.

Good luck and have fun! 👍

The problem with the "slow in, fast out" name is that it suggests you should be slow entering the corner. A lot of my lap time gains were due to me slowing down too much. This can be a massive problem because not only do you lose time braking more, but you then are slower throughout the entire corner and straight afterwards losing more time.

Here's a nice fact for you guys. On a reasonable sized corner, having your car positioned 1 foot away from the outside of the track at turn in causes the radius of your turn at entry to be roughly 5% smaller. This causes your speed to be 5% less, meaning you take 5% more time to negate it, and also means you have a slower speed through the apex and exit. Using the entire track to keep your turn radius to a minimum and corner speed to a maximum is essential.

 

[Denilson]

"Slow in, fast out" to me would translate to something like..

Control your entry to the degree that you have enough control to apply throttle early, while still beeing "safe".
"safe" is subjective, and the smaller margins you need to stey "safe", the faster you'll be able to clear the corner.

As someone said, your line is ofc extremely important. Make sure to straight out your line as much as possible (basics, I know).

When I enter a corner, I tend to be gentle on the brake, not slamming it.. Perhaps applying around 90%, and decrease while I'm turining in.. Then let the car "flow" (no braking or throttle), and slow it self down while approaching the apex.. Once you know you'll hit the apex, look past the apex to the exit (outside). Floor it gradually, but make sure to always keep your eyes on the exit, and try to really feel when you're applying too much throttle.
I can feel that pretty instantly, so I'll just apply less throttle until the car is back on track, and then just go all out.
The ability to feel instantly when you're pushing the limits is key here. The later you feel it, the more speed you'll loose when you try to compensate your too aggressive throttle input.

 

[McClarenDesign]

Not slow in, fast out. Its "easy in, hard out."

And while we're on cliches, here's another: "fast turns, slow hands. Slow turn, fast hands". Basically, keep your inputs smooth, and to a minimum.

 

[Denilson]

And while we're on cliches, here's another: "fast turns, slow hands. Slow turn, fast hands". Basically, keep your inputs smooth, and to a minimum.

That's a good one..
Reminds me of what one of my youth coaches said to me when trying to teach me football:

Good player: Relaxed in the head, fast on his feets.
Bad player: Stressed in the head, slow on his feets.

 

[byegad]

Using the driving line gives a reasonably fast lap. BUT, and this is important, the red areas of the line are not always correct. On the Nordschleife there are a couple of places where I brake where the line is blue, giving me a slower in, faster out solution to a series of corners. More importantly for speed, at several points, more than 4 IIRC, I ignore the red and keep my foot planted hard on the throttle.

I don't know the names of the corners well enough to name them all, but if you look at the complex leading to the uphill braking zone into a Left complete with a gravel trap before the second Karussell. In the middle of this complex I get a long red line in the bottom of the dip after the first Right, Left which I totally ignore, then after more curves, as the road climbs another long red line is there, I touch the brakes rather than brake hard for half that line and take a late exit line to the left of the 'official' one up the hill before braking into the left hander with gravel trap.

For me this is the fastest way to get a powerful car through this part of the track.

 

[king4951]

Some really great information and tips on this thread. Thanks to all contributors, particularly Mclaren design.

May I just add one point that hasn't been mentioned, I look at where I want to be at the end of the corner, sometimes i find myself focusing on the apex too much and not the exit, target fixation can work in your favour here by looking as far ahead as possible. Works for me anyway. Cheers all

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

There's a lot of nice advice in here, honestly I improved the most when I looked at other driving and where they break etc.. then if my break points are way off, I try to correct it, in some corner you can even see that the other guy is not breaking etc.. Ghost racing is really good to improve yourself I think. It shows you the possibility of the car and that way you can try to recreate what the others do.

 

[georgiebest]

Getting quite a good collection of advice in this thread now.

In terms of apex, I'm sure you all have heard that taking the late apex line is ideal for acceleration after the corner, but here is a good tip to help you pick your line through each corner.

"The slower the corner, the later the turn in and apex. The faster the corner, the closer you should go to a geometric line."

Really fast sweepers then should be taking with a balanced apex at the middle of the corner, where as slow hairpins should have a late apex to let you get on the throttle as early as possible.
The reasoning behind this is that your car accelerates better at lower speed than at faster speed. This means that taking a slower line for a better acceleration on slow corners is beneficial because you will gain the speed quickly again. Conversely when you are travelling at 150mph, every MPH can take time to regain, so a geometric line lets you carry the greatest entry, mid and exit speed.

Here is some useful videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D21O...DvjVQa1PpcFNagoeA24strRFC91xZSjHBQ73JxzBin4A=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgzj...DvjVQa1PpcFNagoeA24streevhU636J90mbCn1O2A5ow=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6ax...DvjVQa1PpcFNagoeA24stre6GDXg6EGR_ktUOZY8TowY=

He has a few more on his channel if you go onto those videos.

From what I have read, michael schumachers technique of driving was the fastest in F1 because he utilized trail braking better than anyone else.
Here is a video that dissects the 3 main driving styles and how they vary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOhgI1hQA68

The thing that makes schumacher able to enter the corner so fast is that he trail brakes. This causes the balance of the car to shift towards the front wheels, giving them more traction to swing around regardless of the extra speed. This is almost like inducing a slight controlled oversteer.
Then he gets on the throttle mid corner to maintain the speed through the corner, to give the car a better balance through the corner, before getting on the power early and progressively putting his foot down for exit.