PS4 Ai behaviour in career?

Discussion in 'Project CARS 1' started by azidahaka, May 11, 2015.

  1. azidahaka

    azidahaka

    Messages:
    5,536
    Haven't had as much PCars times as i wished to so far (like 6 hours or so :( ), but i'm a bit puzzled by the AI behaviour. (Racing at the standard 80% by now just real assist allowed)

    I'm not the best of drivers (but i have years of experience) and i'm a NO-tune guy so i started the career with clio (untuned). What i'm wondering is:

    Does the AI have the same speed in dry and on wet?
    I just had a race where a storm came mid-race, i had to pit for heavy wets and drive like on eggs while the AI were flying more or less at the same pace as before >_>

    Does the AI have the best setup ever?
    I wonder where is the AI's speed coming from; i mean how can they have better acceleration out of corners and be able to brake so much later? They have a special setup granted to them that is way faster than my stock? Or their speed is just calculated? Or do they use brake assist for example?

    Does the AI feel tire wear?
    Asking because the AI is usually unstoppable by race end (running 100% race lenght) and does not seem to have issues driving on worn tires or actually as slower as you get.

    Does the AI scale depending o how fast you are?
    This gave me a headache. I reached the last race of the clio serie at Brands. I do the Q session and snatch a great pole, over 1.2 seconds faster than second driver. I Expected an easy win or at least to be able to open some gap. No way! The AI is VERY, VERY faster than it ever did in Q session or practice and it's impossible to shake it down... ?_? Also with their seemingly being unaffected by tire wear it makes impossible to get a win...


    I'm aware it might be an issue of being tuneless as i always end racing, causing more tire wear or a way twitchier car that is hard t control, but issues like the rain one and the Brands one puzzle me to no end.

    BTW has anyone come out with a Clio setup? :D On stock setup I lose it on off throttle rolling corners that seem the easiest in the world and tapping brakes downhill is a curse or even touching a curb. Anything good would be of help, i did found a tune for the clio on the forum but was too slow overall...
     
    gtracedriver1, mister dog and FLX1981 like this.
  2. Fezz_ST

    Fezz_ST

    Messages:
    2,073
    Regarding setup, take a look at the telemetry of the AI during practice, I started a GT4 championship with the V8 Vantage and was wondering how the AI were braking much later than me and still making it around the corner, I noticed that their rear brakes were nearing 1000fand the front only 8/900f so I did a couple more laps with the telemetry on screen and noticed that my front brakes were only reaching 600f and the rears even less.

    Went into tuning and moved the bias rearward to 57% and closed the brake ducts up a bit and it made a hug difference,the brakes hold heat and bite much better than before and the rear bias reduces front locking and helps turn the turn in.
     
  3. azidahaka

    azidahaka

    Messages:
    5,536
    Interesting, i guess the "car engineer" they tell you to visit should give you hints like this one ;)
     
  4. smilerftm

    smilerftm

    Messages:
    270
    Location:
    England
    Maybe you just aren't very quick? Don't mean to sound harsh but I've just finished the Clio Cup on 80% and came first in every race except one at Silverstone. The races I won I did so by a large margin in the main, I did seem to struggle more in the wet at Oulton Park and they were up my backside whilst it was raining but I was still able to hold them all off. I probably should've raced at 90%
     
  5. azidahaka

    azidahaka

    Messages:
    5,536
    You are on ps4? you tuned the car?

    I'm not very fast but i'm an expert racer and can someone manage around gtp aliens in the endurance serie i race in...

    what slows me is the terrible stock setup the car has i guess. And AI being all weird like the Brands thing i pointed out in first topic...

    maybe i'm even slower than i think :D
     
  6. smilerftm

    smilerftm

    Messages:
    270
    Location:
    England
    Yeah PS4 and standard set-up, although I've found I'm a bit quicker on most circuits using the tune Thionville posted which I've just started to use
     
  7. Arveena

    Arveena

    Messages:
    333
    They are definitly changing their difficulty after quali. I am playing between 90 and 100% and sometimes i gap them in quali for 3 seks. In the Race when i have more fuel their are suddenly doing my quali times. Also how much AI driver are in god mode depends on your quali position. If i skip Quali and start well the AI settles at my speed.
    I also saw a video on youtube where some guy played at 80% and won easily with laptimes 5 sek slower than me and i played at 91% and struggeld because of a super quali lap. In the same event ofc. Also playing at 100% and getting every pole but struggeling in the race because AI is unaffected by Tyrewear is it possible to see which Tyres you have equiped at the start if the setting is automatic by weather?

    If you do well in quali and it starts raining i quit the race they are just flying by with ease. If the race is wet at the start. They are super challegening but it is possible at 100% sometimes.

    Also even at 0% there is in later races always one guy keeping up. I think the swotch mainly changes how many people keep up and how aggressive and konsistent they are also the quali speed. In the race they match you depending on quali speed and position.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
    azidahaka likes this.
  8. azidahaka

    azidahaka

    Messages:
    5,536
    Seems i'm not mad then :D Also i usually keep getting as an answer to my experiences that "i'm slow", that while it might be true, wouldn't explain the "highlander" ai i'm facing at brands now after my super pole position lap...

    This will teach me not to get poles lol

    Also glad that other noticed ai lack of tire wear and being way too fast or unaffected by rain...

    After all the delays and testings i have no clue how those mistakes slipped through, honestly! But i think they can be patched along with the stupid ai god mode.
     
    bremics and TheClarky like this.
  9. Arveena

    Arveena

    Messages:
    333
    Yeah its strange. Dont know if I like it or not. My main problem is the Tyrewear as i like doing races at 100% lenght i always need a big gap for the last lap as the ai gets faster with more grip on the track and less fuel and i struggle because i dont know which tyre is the right compmund because i cant check the automtic compound at the start. So sometimes i end up with the wrong compound after the stopp and they catch me and fly by as i struggle with the tyres. Also not having an asphalt temp doesnt make tyre choice easy.

    Neverthess its the best AI i have driven against if they would fix the tyrewear thing i would be happy i dont care if they are joining my speed after quali. Makes for fun racing
     
  10. azidahaka

    azidahaka

    Messages:
    5,536
    Now that i think about it when i had bad q sessions i always had great races with great finishes like when i had a 12th time and climbed up easily to 4th...

    This kind of artificial "will give you a challenge no matter what" is a bit off putting... If i'm a second faster that ai in qualy and practice i want and expect to be faster in races too not to have all grid 2 seconds faster in race than of their qualifying times..
     
    bremics and Arveena like this.
  11. Ian_83

    Ian_83

    Messages:
    2,232
    Location:
    England
    It makes the AI difficulty setting redundant. If the AI automatically match your qualifying pace, then surely there will be little to no difference between 100% and 80% difficulty.
     
  12. bleeder

    bleeder

    Messages:
    3,096
    Location:
    England
    the aggression and willingness to make overtakes and defend positions hopefully increases as the AI slider goes up. haven't done a lot of testing but I'm sure there's behavioural differences too.
     
  13. Ian_83

    Ian_83

    Messages:
    2,232
    Location:
    England
    That was my thinking too. Still the overall pace is set by our pace. Hmm, maybe that's a good thing, I'm not sure.
     
  14. Bealdor

    Bealdor

    Messages:
    771
    No it isn't. There's no king of rubberbanding in the game.
     
  15. Arveena

    Arveena

    Messages:
    333
    There is a rubberband effekt in thus game.
    I for example did laguna seca at 0% lapped at the 1:43 had one guy all the time on my ass. We were lapping the field. Watched a youtube video of a guy same car same track same event he lapped at 1:46 with 80 AI still one guy following. But the field was close. When i go at 100% i do the same laptimes 1:43 and the field is closer together but gap to srcond is roughly the same. Increasing it with no mistakes by a few tenth each lap until tyre falls off.
    It set by your driving skill. On new tracks i dont know i just destroy the AI because i set a pole but improve every lap in the race as i learn the track. If i know the track and i do a qualylap on the limit. Race gets suddenly hard.
     
    azidahaka likes this.
  16. bleeder

    bleeder

    Messages:
    3,096
    Location:
    England
    have you tried just starting last and seeing how far and how fast you get through the pack at different AI levels? would be a pure test of the AI slider as no quali involved.
     
  17. Arveena

    Arveena

    Messages:
    333
    Yeah i tried. 0% Ai first lap first place. one guy following me and after 4laps lapping the field.
    100% AI. First lap 12 and fighting the whole race for 9 as they are all around the same pace. Leader pulling away.

    It seems to be completly diffrent ins single races though.
     
  18. azidahaka

    azidahaka

    Messages:
    5,536
    Call it as you want then, but seems most people are experiencing issues with unrealistic ai behaviour or pace that seems determined by your q session time triggering strange behaviours.

    I think with their efforts of giving drivers a hard fight, sms has triggered something wrong. Read the points i made before.

    Also seems the rain and tires bug are rampant too. Hiding such things is stupid for i'm sure sms can easily fix them if they get hear of them. And we all want pcars to be as good and perfect as possible right?

    Else we wouldn't be here playing!
     
    bremics and Ian_83 like this.
  19. Ian_83

    Ian_83

    Messages:
    2,232
    Location:
    England
    This is why I'm unsure as to whether or not it's a good thing. I like the fact that the AI is able to keep pace (if I'm quicker) but I also like a tough challenge and the thought of having to fight for position even if I'm at the back of the field.

    It's annoying knowing that the AI are basically setting their pace based upon my own, I'd like to know that I'm racing well and putting in really good lap times and deserve my position......

    .....but at least it isn't dumb like GT6. In GT6 there really is no AI at all. The only way I could get a challenge in GT6 was to use a severely underpowered car or rubbish tyres (sometimes both). Even when I did that, the AI would basically yield and give me positions too easily. :(

    So PCars must be much better than GT6, although it sounds as though it has room for improvement.
     
  20. Bealdor

    Bealdor

    Messages:
    771
    I've read your points and there are some known issues that can explain them.

    AI too fast in rain when races starts dry is a known issue. Could be two different cases:

    1. AI starts with rain tires
    2. AI is not affected by the wet track on slicks

    AI has a different/simplified physics model. That's why they can sometimes be better on brakes or acceleration. Since it was top priority to not artificially slow the AI down or give them a top speed boost, this is IMO the only way to make them faster or slower depending on the difficulty.

    AFAIK they do have tire wear but since they're using a different physics model it could be that they're not affected in the same way that you are. Could be a balancing problem, don't know.

    Is this the only track you're experiencing this? If there was a rubberbanding effect this should happen on all tracks.
    There's also a known qualifying fuel problem which is a bit hard to explain (and apparantly hard to fix) but the essence is, that the AI sometimes does the qualifying with a full tank and is therefore slower than in the race.
     
    talkin_2_me and azidahaka like this.
  21. azidahaka

    azidahaka

    Messages:
    5,536
    I had 4 races (2 rounds each so total of 8) and in all races were i had a bad qualy session i had easy recover and scored great points... In one track (oulton i think) i started 12th and finished in 7th. In the track where i had great starting places (a couple poles, 3rd) i had finishers in the 7th or so place because by race end the AI was impossibly faster due (i think) to no tire wear.

    Racing 100% distance, on the most realistic setting with real aids only.

    For those interested since "i'm slow" my results were (no restarts taking what comes)

    7/7 (was running 3rd both races, but tried too hard. Started 12th race looked easy)
    7/9
    2/4 (had good pace at silverstone, but bad Q session, race was good and easy lost 1st position 2 laps to go i think it was 13th lap)
    10/12 (rain impossible race i was 3rd in both) in second one i had extra long pit with stig sying something about clutch i couldn't read because it went off too fast lol

    now i have last round at brands were i had pole with 1.2 seconds of margin that basically killed myself for the AI improved his pace by over 1 second per lap from practice/qualy... Meaning that with tire wear i can't hope to get better than 5th or 6th in race long tire wear... probably good chances for race 2.
     
  22. Bealdor

    Bealdor

    Messages:
    771
    Please try a Quick Race Weekend at Brands Hatch with and without qualifying and double check the AI laptimes in these races with the laptimes in your career race.

    Important: Same race length, same weather and preferably same day and time of day (and same AI level of course).
     
  23. azidahaka

    azidahaka

    Messages:
    5,536
    I ran the career so no clue about anything else sorry :/

    But i'm sure about what i stated about AI speed, and it shows in the preceding career races i had... Oh i'm on ps4 if it matters!
     
  24. Bealdor

    Bealdor

    Messages:
    771
    Again, please double check in Quick Race Mode.

    I don't see a problem with your other race results. When you're starting in the back it's easier to make up places because the backmarkers are slower (otherwise they wouldn't start back there ;)).
     
  25. paulpg87

    paulpg87

    Messages:
    2,023
    Location:
    Italy
    weather is not dynamic, in the a race it will rain at the same moment every championship. Race 3 or 4 (do not remember) of clio cup will always be wet with rain starting by mid race.

    In round 3 of clio cup at oulton park (2nd race) it rains strongly mid race. If you pit and put wet / intermediate you will be destroyed by the field. I put soft slick and won the race.. no effects from the rain...

    However i just finished the clio cup championship. I scored pole on every round by 1 second- 1,5 seconds but during the race the AI is uber fast and can brake so much later .. in fact i won every first race cause i start in front and finish in front. I never won a 2nd race cause they pass me by during pit and i'm unable to outbrake them and overtake. I won the 2 round only at brand hatch cause i was way faster.

    Right now however i feel like i wasted my money preparing for the game.. so much unpolished and full of bugs. It will need a lot of patches...
     
  26. azidahaka

    azidahaka

    Messages:
    5,536
    ahahahah you are missing the point :D if you start in the back you usually are there because you are slow... You do not start passing all others drivers in front of you that were already faster than you effortlessly from 12th to 4th :D
     
    Ian_83 likes this.
  27. Bealdor

    Bealdor

    Messages:
    771
    Touché. :cheers:
     
    Ian_83 and azidahaka like this.
  28. Rocky77

    Rocky77

    Messages:
    14
    Where do you even check individual lap times? After the race when I get the final results, I see no lap times available, been searching for them. Am I completely blind? Haha

    And btw I didn't notice the AI getting better in races, if I was much faster in Q I also managed to pull away from the start. I played on 70% in the Clio Cup, will now proceed to 80%, am taking it step by step, each tier higher I get I make it harder.

    And I also never yet tuned the car, as I don't have good enough knowledge about mechanical parts. Will wait until some nice vids about tunning pop up so I get a better understanding.

    One more thing, is it possible to see the circuit layout somewhere, because when I go into a new location, I like to remember how corners go before I start driving, but can't seem to find it. Would really be helpfull.
     
  29. azidahaka

    azidahaka

    Messages:
    5,536
    This will teach you being too fast :D

    Btw i got a ps4 for this game+t300+psnplus+ a new router, so i feel you. It costed me Months and months of savings with our italian economics >_> but i'm sure they'll fix or improve the issues as long people will point them out and not "hide to defend the king"
     
    paulpg87 likes this.
  30. Arveena

    Arveena

    Messages:
    333
    In single player the AI seems not to have that rubberband effect at least for me.
    Also the bug were one car is following you at 0% is not always there on other tracks i lap the whole field on some tracks one guy stays with me

    Update:
    So I tried something.
    Career Race GT3. Sat on Pole. Went to the pit in Lap 2 of 24. Swaped to AI driver. Spectated and watched laptimes. The were getting faster evey lap not a single sign of tyre wear my AI driver set every lap the fastest lap of the race for 22 laps in a row. Only by a smal margin like a few hunderts or a tenth but he did it same goes for the other ai. I know the track gets more grip and the car gets lighter but should not get tyre wear into that at some point?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2015