AI vs. Alien

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700
Germany
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GTRP_Krypto_
Hello Community,

As we know, there are meanwhile many games and disciplines where a human can't beat a computer anymore. Chess for example. Or even poker.

Well, I wonder if it is possible to program an AI which can do THE perfect lap with pressing the last thousands out?

To answer this question there is an another question before.

How is the current AI programed regarding the limit speeds in the turns anyway?

Does it drive with regulating like us or does it move amongst fixed speed-way- diagramms given from the human programers?

My guess is its the second one, and to reach the goal beating a human (alien) it would have to be redesigned.

By the way, I think if there would exist such a software, it would bring great benefits to PD regarding the BOP balancing for example. Because it would be a dependable and repeatable analizing tool. Somebody wrote that PD hired the 3 fastest drivers of Japan for BOB balancing, so its obviously a challenge.

Do you think its possible for the AI to beat the Aliens?

And would you also like to find out how far the world records of the aliens are away from what is the absolute limit?

Thoughts appriciated :)
 
899
United States
Phoenix Az.
HuddyBob
I think on an empty track doing fast laps and looking at average pace the AI would be the winner.
Looking for that one fast lap, or in multi car racing I believe the Alien has the advantage.
Reasoning...
The AI must be programmed for staying within the limits of the vehicle (self preservation), and, has got to have safety of those around them be a paramount design. After all, no one wants to see an AI vehicle with no regards for safety out there killing off the humans. The AI would also need a healthy does of racing etiquette.
The fastest laps usually involve an amount of slip angle, aka slightly exceeding the car limits, which is not kind to tire wear, nor is it in keeping with self preservation. So to go "ludicrous speed" there are moments of "I got this" and tire abuse... Nod to the Alien for a wonder lap.
Now, put that into a racing situation, and, if self preservation, safety and racing etiquette has been properly programmed, you'll find the AI sitting behind an Alien waiting for a mistake, and, the Aliens, making things happen... bluring the lines of self preservation, safety and etiquette.
When 2 humans act in this manner they are both putting their lives on the line, and they get reviewed as racing incidents.
Have an AI act like that and the human community will scream that the AI is the grim reaper... and the AI will need reprogrammed to be even more polite in the interest of human safety... getting slower yet again.

My .02
 
2,782
England
England
kilesa4568
They look as though they're using *waypoints as they make the same mistakes at the same corners over and over. At Maggiore, they always slow excessively at a couple of the fast corners. I don't think they could get any quicker though as you can make them over drive with the rubber banding.

I'm not sure why it's like that as in AC, the AI's pace is through the roof on the higher levels and very consistent. They left me red faced when I put them on the highest setting...

Maybe GTS stretches the console's APU too much and there's not enough CPU cycles left to provide quick and consistent AI without using those same waypoints?
 
745
Antarctica
Antarctica
I guess PD could use machine learning to calculate the perfect lap for a particular car with a particular BOP at a particular track for a particular time of day and weather. I've no idea how long or how much computer power this would take though.

AI actually racing someone fast, no. Strategy games like chess and poker are not comparable here. AI could be gifted special abilities in game to compensate for its weaknesses but I think you meant on a level playing field.
 
3,177
England
St helens, merseyside, England.
crazybuttocks198
Crazybuttocks19
If PD made a specific build of Gran Turismo, like other people do to challenge chess players or go players, then yes. With the single player build the way it is then no. Bearing in mind that it seemed that GT league was not going to be a feature of GTS, except for people (who live in the past) moaning for its inclusion.
 
3,954
Philippines
Laguna
Alpha_Cipher1
Simply put, no AI can't beat an Alien. This is because unlike chess, there isn't a finite amount of possible cases that could happen at any given moment. In a one-lap hotlap situation in a very specific car in a very specific track, then yes AI will win, since a programmer can program the exact parameters of that AI in that very specific situation, or use machine learning to achieve the same effect.

I'm basing my statements off a similar AI that works under the latter principles I stated in DOTA 2. By playing a specific character, in the mid, OpenAI will almost always certainly win against you, but even that AI still has its flaws, as it's still been beaten by a human. You can say that if we work under the same principles of OpenAI, this theoretical GTS AI we speak of can race against humans in a specific track in a specific car. But seeing how OpenAI doesn't even use a tenth of the map in DOTA 2, I'd say this GTS AI can race against humans in a very specific car, in a very specific corner of a very specific track. Nothing more
 

syntex123

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syntex123
Syntex260Z
Bearing in mind that it seemed that GT league was not going to be a feature of GTS, except for people (who live in the past) moaning for its inclusion.
Who live in the past. :lol: eSports is great and all, but I’m sure not everyone wants an online-focused game. The game is for age 7-77, I doubt 10 year olds appreciate a game where you need to be 18(20 some countries) to be able to participate. A strong offline mode is a must to cater to your audience, especially when you advertise it to everyone.

But to get back on topic, I do agree with you, it wouldn’t work in a normal build.
 
3,177
England
St helens, merseyside, England.
crazybuttocks198
Crazybuttocks19
Who live in the past. :lol: eSports is great and all, but I’m sure not everyone wants an online-focused game. The game is for age 7-77, I doubt 10 year olds appreciate a game where you need to be 18(20 some countries) to be able to participate. A strong offline mode is a must to cater to your audience, especially when you advertise it to everyone.

But to get back on topic, I do agree with you, it wouldn’t work in a normal build.

Maybe a bit strong from me. Mostly (not all) people who want GTS to be another GT6 and before that to answer your question.
 
2,782
England
England
kilesa4568
Sorry for the slight off topic but kind of similar. Especially when I comes to my 'bot-like' driving.:lol:

Can Joe Public beat an alien with enough practice or is there an innate skill level that stops you from reaching the same pace?
 
3,954
Philippines
Laguna
Alpha_Cipher1
Sorry for the slight off topic but kind of similar. Especially when I comes to my 'bot-like' driving.:lol:

Can Joe Public beat an alien with enough practice or is there an innate skill level that stops you from reaching the same pace?
Who's Joe Public?
 
3,954
Philippines
Laguna
Alpha_Cipher1
Ohhhh. Absolutely! :D
What you said sort of hits home for me, since going into GTS I thought I was some hot shot but then, bam I got stuck into DR B, 2 seconds off the pace, for so long. It's quite an agonizing time, that :lol: realizing that you have no talent is a very big pill to swallow, especially when you thought you had some because you won some casual lobbies in GT6.
I kept my head down, I started watching Top 10 replays, I started posting/inquiring here on the forums, stealing the racecraft of some aliens by watching my replays when I'm lucky enough to be matched against them, basically anything I can do to study how to be faster, and before I knew it I got out of the plateau and now I'm an A+ driver in all regions! I've even occasionally beaten an alien here and there :D I'd say do your homework dilligently and passionately; it'll eventually come to you :)
 

syntex123

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Maybe a bit strong from me. Mostly (not all) people who want GTS to be another GT6 and before that to answer your question.
Yeah no I totally get that. And I agree, I wanted something fresh too, but having it focus 90% on the online element when it is advertised as a game for everyone is a tad bit much to ask, so I’m happy they added the GT League, although I don’t touch it more than I do the Sport Mode :)
 
2,782
England
England
kilesa4568
Ohhhh. Absolutely! :D
What you said sort of hits home for me, since going into GTS I thought I was some hot shot but then, bam I got stuck into DR B, 2 seconds off the pace, for so long. It's quite an agonizing time, that :lol: realizing that you have no talent is a very big pill to swallow, especially when you thought you had some because you won some casual lobbies in GT6.
I kept my head down, I started watching Top 10 replays, I started posting/inquiring here on the forums, stealing the racecraft of some aliens by watching my replays when I'm lucky enough to be matched against them, basically anything I can do to study how to be faster, and before I knew it I got out of the plateau and now I'm an A+ driver in all regions! I've even occasionally beaten an alien here and there :D I'd say do your homework dilligently and passionately; it'll eventually come to you :)

I had mthomas, yourself and LIGHTNING in mind when I asked.:)

Mthomas because he's unbelievably quick with a pad and seemed to do well with very little wheel practice at the event, and yourself, who's only 17 but already has a deep understanding on how the car behaves. I have to think that you were previously off the pace because you didn't have GTS's matchmaking providing you with drivers where you had to push yourself to compete.

I'm not asking for myself. I've reached a pace I'm comfortable with and is enjoyable but if what you say is right, homework and practice etc, why isn't there more drivers of your standard?
 
6,113
United States
Washington State
OutlawQuadrant
The vast amount of variables required to create such an AI may be out of reach with current technology. Give it enough time, however, and Kazbot will be ready to take over the world... of Gran Turismo. :lol:
Sorry for the slight off topic but kind of similar. Especially when I comes to my 'bot-like' driving.:lol:

Can Joe Public beat an alien with enough practice or is there an innate skill level that stops you from reaching the same pace?
Depends on how much practice you're willing to put in, which alien you are aiming at and the race situation. The time it takes to get the time and consistency down to give oneself even a slim chance is usually too much for most players.
 
2,782
England
England
kilesa4568
Depends on how much practice you're willing to put in, which alien you are aiming at and the race situation. The time it takes to get the time and consistency down to give oneself even a slim chance is usually too much for most players.

I don't think it can be that simple to explain away. Sure, you can manufacture a very good driver that way but there's very good and then there's exceptional.

Perhaps it's just bravery? Aliens have probably crashed more times than most trying to push their limit but they've spent more time on the limit practising than someone like me who dials back to avoid crashing. On a (very) good day, I can get about 3 seconds off the top ten list driving within my limit. I don't practice driving over my limit for long as I hate crashing and my qualifying is more of a race pace with zero risk.

Answered my own question. I need to grow a pair when I practice.:lol:
 
38,483
Australia
The Bronx
Only thing I can mention about AI is, if you haven't done the Porsche Cup Campaign race at Dragon Trail Seaside, try it. Observe the first place AI when you pass it.

I've been beaten by it after I built a gap.(I did try the race again and won- it wannsnt pretty). I could see the gap falling by about. 5 seconds per sector at the last lap. Even with me shortcutting the bustop.

I guess, if the AI were programmed to stay at that pace, an Alien might have a hard time.
 
624
United States
United States
Only thing I can mention about AI is, if you haven't done the Porsche Cup Campaign race at Dragon Trail Seaside, try it. Observe the first place AI when you pass it.

I've been beaten by it after I built a gap.(I did try the race again and won- it wannsnt pretty). I could see the gap falling by about. 5 seconds per sector at the last lap. Even with me shortcutting the bustop.

I guess, if the AI were programmed to stay at that pace, an Alien might have a hard time.
Are drivers in the offline races really AI? Or is the game basically dialing up the power and grip, like the boost setting?
 
38,483
Australia
The Bronx
Are drivers in the offline races really AI? Or is the game basically dialing up the power and grip, like the boost setting?
I think it's programmed to be fast either way. I've found AI to scripted to fail at certain pasrt of tracks. I posted where the lead M6 spins into a wall at la Sarthe, at the exact point and moment I I catch up to it, no matter which car I choose to race with.

Are PD ever using "real" AI? Maybe not, but if programmed to be as fast as an Alien(let's say like West World AI) , the Alien may still have a hard time about it.
 
5,746
Canada
Ontario
SvennoJ
SvenZ
In a game the AI can always cheat, and cheats by default as it's not limited to looking at a screen like a human does. Of course CPU time is limited and the human only has to control one car, while the game has to divide attention to driving 19 cars at once. I would like to see an alien who can pull that off :)

It shouldn't be long until we see humans race these
 
624
United States
United States
In a game the AI can always cheat, and cheats by default as it's not limited to looking at a screen like a human does. Of course CPU time is limited and the human only has to control one car, while the game has to divide attention to driving 19 cars at once. I would like to see an alien who can pull that off :)

It shouldn't be long until we see humans race these
I think it's going to be quite a while. That looked to be way off an optimal race line. Learning the racing line is as basic as it gets. I'm not even talking about fine tuning, that thing was repeatedly off by over a meter.
 
6,113
United States
Washington State
OutlawQuadrant
I don't think it can be that simple to explain away. Sure, you can manufacture a very good driver that way but there's very good and then there's exceptional.

Perhaps it's just bravery? Aliens have probably crashed more times than most trying to push their limit but they've spent more time on the limit practising than someone like me who dials back to avoid crashing. On a (very) good day, I can get about 3 seconds off the top ten list driving within my limit. I don't practice driving over my limit for long as I hate crashing and my qualifying is more of a race pace with zero risk.

Answered my own question. I need to grow a pair when I practice.:lol:
The one advantage of driving on a virtual track is that you're able to push your limits and afford to crash without much consequence. You may get one corner wrong four times but the one time you nail it and suddenly, that optimal lap drops a few extra tenths. Now, you may not be able to replicate that one great attempt right away but at least you set your own bar higher. Then you can practice working yourself up towards that new bar and make yourself more comfortable driving with that faster pace.
 
1,833
United States
United States
One thing that I have always thought that would be a very helpful in game tool is that after you complete a Circuit Experience and "unlock" the track that you should be able to use that tracks sectors with your own garage cars to work on a problem area of a track that you are having without the need to constantly run full laps to work on improving in one section.

Say you know you are losing time in the bus stop at Dragon Trail if you could use circuit experience to just work on that 1 section then it could speed up getting problem areas of the different circuits down to increase your pace on those areas.

Would not be hard to implement it, all the sectors and cars are already there in the game.
 
3,954
Philippines
Laguna
Alpha_Cipher1
I had mthomas, yourself and LIGHTNING in mind when I asked.:)

Mthomas because he's unbelievably quick with a pad and seemed to do well with very little wheel practice at the event, and yourself, who's only 17 but already has a deep understanding on how the car behaves. I have to think that you were previously off the pace because you didn't have GTS's matchmaking providing you with drivers where you had to push yourself to compete.

I'm not asking for myself. I've reached a pace I'm comfortable with and is enjoyable but if what you say is right, homework and practice etc, why isn't there more drivers of your standard?
That's rather touching :)

I think it's because we have different learning curves and all. And this is a very big assumption of mine, so please do correct me if I'm wrong, but some players get complacent with their ranking and pace. That's not bad at all though, if anything it's actually a nice aspect to have, to be comfortable with what you have now. I think because these people are comfortable with what they have, they don't push themselves really hard to get higher up the rankings. Again, really big assumption though, so take it with a grain of salt :)
@Alpha Cipher your'e 17 ???

Respect, would've never guessed from your posts!
Yep! :) Thanks!
 
624
United States
United States
That's rather touching :)

I think it's because we have different learning curves and all. And this is a very big assumption of mine, so please do correct me if I'm wrong, but some players get complacent with their ranking and pace. That's not bad at all though, if anything it's actually a nice aspect to have, to be comfortable with what you have now. I think because these people are comfortable with what they have, they don't push themselves really hard to get higher up the rankings. Again, really big assumption though, so take it with a grain of salt :)

Yep! :) Thanks!
Desire to go faster and improve is definitely a part of being a great driver. Taking the time to practice instead of just "playing" is something a lot of people aren't really interested in, so they will plateau below what they could achieve. For pretty much everyone, there are outside factors (work, school, family, friends, etc.) that limit how much we can devote to GT Sport.

To be an Alien, I have no doubt that there is a natural talent component as well. Even if you gave everyone the best equipment and unlimited time to practice, there will always be a small percentage that are better than everyone else. Anything this competitive will have some resemblance to a bell curve. It may not be very motivational to say this, but the truth is not everyone can be a Hamilton or Vettel.

Personally, I'm not ever going to win any prizes for playing GT Sport, but that's ok. I'm having fun and I still have room to improve and that's exciting. Regarding AI, bring it on. As far as I know, there is no AI in existence today that can beat me at GT Sport and I'm not even close to the Aliens!