All is now becoming clear - GT5 was released nowhere near complete!

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This model has benefited PC games for years (of course the update were free)


WHAAAT!

Dude , this model is what KILLED PC gaming.

Producers would release crap with the intention of "fixing it later"

That is the reason I chose to switch to PS3....I am sick of a PC game launching and not working and on release day downloading a 1GB patch....

If playstation games go this way , Long live PS games.
 
The reason the game is the shambles it is, is more likely to do with Sonys ever increasing demands for the continual additional hardware marketing gimmicks, meaning Kaz was constantly watering down the finished product in order to maintain it to some sort of acceptable level.

Features were cut and trimmed more and more, we've seen better in earlier demo builds, so the product was definately developed, its just the trimming and cutting that had to go into the final product to please Sony ever increasing list of demands has messed up the the final product.
The current 3D Tv technology is a huge flop in the consumer market, and we to some extent have paid a high price for that.
If the game was simply designed at 720p without 3D it would probably look and play a whole lot better than in does currently and features that seem half baked and cut back over those that had gone before would still likely be fully implemented.
Kaz himself has recently been stressing how much system resources are limited on PS3 with GT5 without unnecessary additions, I have to wonder just what masterpiece Kaz could have delivered without the overstretched technology.

I really don't see how the addition of 3D effected some of the decisions made when developing the game (no forwarding/rewinding replays, no pausing b-spec, in fact the whole b-spec mode is bad decision IMO and loads more examples) . The game is about 3 years over due, if it had of been released on schedule it would have avoided the whole 3D thing anyway. As it stands it feels like a bunch of separately designed bits thrown together rather than a finished game.
 
Just dropping in to /agree on the title

The essentials are all there tho, imo. But small details like shadows, ai not giving way when lapping them and so on will still need fixing.
 
What do you think of GT5 as a product after so long in production and costing so much money?

Not sure what you mean but... As a product, it's a success, a huge one. It more than payed for itself already. Mostly due to it's predecessors' glory than by it's own merit, but still a success no doubt.

Sony knew it would sell, we all knew. Maybe you mean Sony wanted it out and forced Kaz to release it because they know the sooner and the more GT games PD release, the better for them. I however think that Sony knows why GT sells so well which is it's unmatchable quality. In fact, their executives were quoted a few times saying they wanted GT5 to be a high quality game or something to that effect. That's another reason why I believe that sure, they wanted Kaz to release it already, but they would never enforce a release against Kaz will.

It's one thing for EA or Ubisoft to order around the studios they pay to make games but Kaz is arguably one of the most successful game developer in the world. I highly doubt he answers directly to anyone. Hell, PD probably has enough money already to stand on it's own feet and ditch Sony altogether.
 
Not sure what you mean but... As a product, it's a success, a huge one. It more than payed for itself already. Mostly due to it's predecessors' glory than by it's own merit, but still a success no doubt.

Sony knew it would sell, we all knew. Maybe you mean Sony wanted it out and forced Kaz to release it because they know the sooner and the more GT games PD release, the better for them. I however think that Sony knows why GT sells so well which is it's unmatchable quality. In fact, their executives were quoted a few times saying they wanted GT5 to be a high quality game or something to that effect. That's another reason why I believe that sure, they wanted Kaz to release it already, but they would never enforce a release against Kaz will.

It's one thing for EA or Ubisoft to order around the studios they pay to make games but Kaz is arguably one of the most successful game developer in the world. I highly doubt he answers directly to anyone. Hell, PD probably has enough money already to stand on it's own feet and ditch Sony altogether.

I meant more of what do think of the quality of the game as a piece of software. Its a missed opportunity in my book. Its like they had no aim for it when they started development.
You're right about Kaz being powerful, only 2 other people I can think of with the same clout is Miyamoto of Nintendo (th guy behind Mario) and Hideo Kojima also at Sony (the guy that makes the Metal Gear games). Those 2 are also similar to Kaz in the way they have a single vision, essentially making the same game over and over, honing and expanding it each time. The strange thing is that where as Kojima and Miyamoto expand and develop their visions with every game they release, GT5 is a massive step backwards in terms of developing the series. It features a lot less in the way of content than GT4 and over all it feels very old and tired to me.
 
I meant more of what do think of the quality of the game as a piece of software. Its a missed opportunity in my book. Its like they had no aim for it when they started development.
You're right about Kaz being powerful, only 2 other people I can think of with the same clout is Miyamoto of Nintendo (th guy behind Mario) and Hideo Kojima also at Sony (the guy that makes the Metal Gear games). Those 2 are also similar to Kaz in the way they have a single vision, essentially making the same game over and over, honing and expanding it each time. The strange thing is that where as Kojima and Miyamoto expand and develop their visions with every game they release, GT5 is a massive step backwards in terms of developing the series. It features a lot less in the way of content than GT4 and over all it feels very old and tired to me.

I agree. As a game I think it nearly failed really (well for GT5 I consider coming second to be a failure). It's still first, but not by a long margin as it used to be. Mostly because of what appears to be poor planing and lack of focus as you mentioned.

Anyway, I believe it's somewhat understandable for it to feature less than GT4. As others pointed out in this forum, the same happened to GT3 when compared to GT2 and there are a number of other new gen titles that followed the same trend, GTAIV for example. Sure, these other games didn't have GT5's exceptionally long development cycle, and it alone should have made up for the "new gen lack of features" phenomenon, but well, I can understand. Mostly because GT5 lacks some things but adds other ones.

However, as I said, it baffles me how GT5P have features GT5 lacks. Important ones actually that I and a lot of other people took for granted. Also, it bothers me how Kaz refuses to give racing enthusiasts more car settings to play with. I expected GT5 to improve on this but well, apparently me and Kaz disagree. All in all, I have the same feeling you do towards GT5. I can't help but think it could and should be much better. It has it's genius characteristics and awesome details but overall, it failed to impress. At least in my book.
 
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I agree. As a game I think it nearly failed really (well for GT5 I consider coming second to be a failure). It's still first, but not by a long margin as it used to be. Mostly because of what appears to be poor planing and lack of focus as you mentioned.

Anyway, I believe it's somewhat understandable for it to feature less than GT4. As others pointed out in this forum, the same happened to GT3 when compared to GT2 and there are a number of other new gen titles that followed the same trend, GTAIV for example. Sure, these other games didn't have GT5's exceptionally long development cycle, and it alone should have made up for the "new gen lack of features" phenomenon, but well, I can understand. Mostly because GT5 lacks some things but adds other ones.

However, as I said, it baffles me how GT5P have features GT5 lacks. Important ones actually that I and a lot of other people took for granted. Also, it bothers me how Kaz refuses to give racing enthusiasts more car settings to play with. I expected GT5 to improve on this but well, apparently me and Kaz disagree. All in all, I have the same feeling you do towards GT5. I can't help but think it could and should be much better. It has it's genius characteristics and awesome details but overall, it failed to impress. At least in my book.

Yeah, some of the basic features, well not even features, functionality thats missing is kind of frightening, not being able to pause B-Spec is a prime example.( B-Spec in general should be scrapped in IMO, its not accurately simulating anything, its only purpose is to extend the games life, but I've ranted about it enough on other threads!).
Whats more frightening is the amount of people talking about grinding for experience points, in both A and B-Spec. GT should be about pushing cars to their limits not grinding.
 
Bad point dominic, B-spec scrapped? Just because you don't like it does not mean it should scrapped. My Bobs are currently training and making me tons of money for my A-spec, go B-spec!

Grinding is a choice, nobody is forcing you, go complete the challenges and licenses to get your XP and CRs.
 
Hmmm ... to B-Spec or not to B-Spec that is the question? Whilst I normally find myself in agreement with Tinram, this time I sit on the other side of the fence.

B-Spec ... nil points :lol:. It has it's uses under the current game architecture but it really has no 'home' in the GT series - after all, the game is about us driving the cars we love (but can't afford) around tracks we can never go to.

I spent some hours with B-Spec this evening. It did not inspire me. I have enough work to do in my real life - when I play a game I'd like it to be entertaining, especially when I've paid this much money to play it.
 
Bad point dominic, B-spec scrapped? Just because you don't like it does not mean it should scrapped. My Bobs are currently training and making me tons of money for my A-spec, go B-spec!

Grinding is a choice, nobody is forcing you, go complete the challenges and licenses to get your XP and CRs.

I don't play B-Spec, without going into it too much (I've commented on it in other threads), heres why it shouldn't be in the game:

-> GT is a driving simulator, thats its point, thats why it exists. B-Spec is not an attempt to accurately simulate managing a motor sport team, its overly simplistic and vague. This alone should be enough to exclude it in my opinion.

-> Its badly documented, with wildly contrasting threads on driver performance as they level up, on how much management drivers require in races, nobody can definitively say how to actually play it

-> Most players admit that its not enjoyable and that they only use is for gaining money to buy cars, this could easily be sorted by paying credits for online races and by simply lowering the cost of cars

-> its missing basic functionality, like being able to pause it or fast forward it. If a race is 4 to 10 laps long and my driver sucks, what happens if someone knocks at my door? I have to sit through the race again through no fault of my own? This is a terrible omission by PD.
 
I personally hate b-spec. I'm only doing it for the few prize cars I can't afford.

If they combined a-spec and b-spec, giving you the option to choose either before a race, that would be fine by me. I would never do 24 hour endurance race unless I could save the game mid race or speed the time up in b-spec, which we can do neither of. Also, since a and b-spec are combined, double the number of events!
 
I seem to find that this game limits the players ability to just indulge themselves like it's predecessors did. Making money to just play around in particular car you may want seems to be more difficult for instance.
 
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WHAAAT!

Dude , this model is what KILLED PC gaming.

Producers would release crap with the intention of "fixing it later"

That is the reason I chose to switch to PS3....I am sick of a PC game launching and not working and on release day downloading a 1GB patch....

If playstation games go this way , Long live PS games.


For sure.
If the mere inference of that abominable practice doesn't make you wail and moan with sorrow, nothing will.
 
No offense to the OP, but it makes me laugh everytime someone mentions 'Kaz' as a perfectionist. I have yet to see a 'perfect' release from Polyphony.

A simple google search away will show you what 'perfectionist' actually means:

per·fec·tion·ist   
[per-fek-shuh-nist] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a person who adheres to or believes in perfectionism.
2.
a person who demands perfection of himself, herself, or others.

Further to this, being a perfectionist does not logically entail that anything you create will be perfect. Striving towards perfection and being perfect are distinct concepts and states of being.

Not a defence of Kaz, but more of an encouragement of using ones brain.

And that's why your post wasn't funny!
 
A simple google search away will show you what 'perfectionist' actually means:

per·fec·tion·ist   
[per-fek-shuh-nist] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a person who adheres to or believes in perfectionism.
2.
a person who demands perfection of himself, herself, or others.

Further to this, being a perfectionist does not logically entail that anything you create will be perfect. Striving towards perfection and being perfect are distinct concepts and states of being.

Not a defence of Kaz, but more of an encouragement of using ones brain.

And that's why your post wasn't funny!
If that's the case, Kaz or whoever was in charge of B-Spec drivers should have had the brains to give the B-Spec drivers brains.

I along with everyone else disappointed in this game would like to see a breakdown of that $60 million.
- The GT4 cars look CRAPPIER
- Heavily overlooked cars over econoboxes, I mean c'mon 2 early 90's Miatas that are PREMIUM? And yes PD I appreciate the Premium Prius.
- Pathetic prize car system
- Pathetic EXP system, do you even need to do a license test when its all about EXP levels?
Thats a short list off the top of my head.
 
Wow, what some people gripe and complain about amazes me sometimes. Yeah the game has it's flaws, that I have no doubt of being fixed in the near future. Did some of you "cry babies" want to wait another 5 years for a "perfect" game? Doubt it.

GT5 is awesome, and I've played GT like it was a religion since the first, it will only get better. People need to have a little more trust and faith sometimes.

Quite a few people in this thread have some very good points, but the ones just crying for the sake of crying need to get somewhere.
 
While I have my gripes about the game, and it DOES feel incomplete, when it's on it is on. When it's not.....it's not so great. There are some very obvious problems.

I'm trusting Sony and PD to fix most of these in the months to come. I think they will.

Overall it's still a great title and a lot of fun.
 
I think it was complete, then they went and added a whole bunch of BS like 3D, karts, samba buses, high/low beam etc. and now the game looks incomplete.

If you strip away all the rubbish, the core of the game is awesome. It's just a shame that all the gimmicky features make it look unfinished
 
GT5 and these features debacle ..is very bad on SONY/PD part..... that means a none hardcore GT5 customer may have passed on GT5 without ever knowing the full breath of what PD is putting out.

All these update/upgrades are happening without any sort of guaranteed list of what they are planning to offer.

It's all about hope, "hoping" that they fix/update something that some of us might care about.

How can you sale a product like that ? with the consumer hoping that you will address somethings.

I like GT5 , but PD is completely disorganized.We have to hold our breath and hope that KAZ tweets something? why don't they have a point man to answer questions on Forums?
!
And also KAZ is just a man...stop elevating him to GOD status! He is not perfect!

As a matter of fact I think that he's getting old..and one thing about old people they get very pig/hard headed in there ways.That's why I think we have this slow to implement Livery/paint editor in GT5 i.e ... select your own racing car numbers/more paint solid color variations.

A younger modern developer would have realized that more body kits and Livery paint options is very good for the car racing genre.It sure isn't a negative.

A younger Kaz of todays generation would have giving us Tunning Mods out the Butt.
And still would be the best racing physics in a console game.

Now yes ..Dynamic weather,B spec, ect... night and day all those things are super great..
but when you buy a racing game/sim, the 2 most important things that any dev have to give to users in my opinion is, great Physics and unlimited Tunning/Mod options. (Weather rain and all the rest should be bonus stuff)

Let me be the race car driver and let me be my own mechanic let me be my own car designer etc..... that what I consider simulating a car racing environment.

KAZ/PD/SONY should not feel that they are too good to implement good ideas from other games ! each one teach one.

Great game I love it still !
 
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Technically, all games are released in a semi-completed state. Particularly those with DLC capabilities, as the game is being updated and built-upon constantly.
 
Grinding is a choice, nobody is forcing you, go complete the challenges and licenses to get your XP and CRs.
I keep seeing this sentiment thrown around to defend the game, which surprises me because it is so obviously false.
 
I think it was complete, then they went and added a whole bunch of BS like 3D, karts, samba buses, high/low beam etc. and now the game looks incomplete.

If you strip away all the rubbish, the core of the game is awesome. It's just a shame that all the gimmicky features make it look unfinished
I have to disagree. I do not think the karts nor the buses make it any less complete and the high low beams are not a big deal but a nice touch.

The things that are incomplete are things like the fully adjustable tranny that is not fully adjustable. If I remember correctly even the close ratio trannys had the ability to adjust the final drive in GT4.

The absence of being able to create a point to point rally track or race the created tracks in your private lounge with your friends. An advertised feature.

The absence of any kind of leaderboard system.

The inability to save any tune other than that which is currently on the car.

Many tracks not used in career mode.

Missing tracks that were supposed to be included.

No online B-Spec functions but they were advertised to be there.

No credits or XP in online races.

Tire wear not done correctly in career mode.

I love the game. I love the cars. Nurburgring is awesome. Yet it is not complete and that is plain to see and has nothing to do with the Bus nor the karts. These things are actually complete and done well IMO.
 
Wow, what some people gripe and complain about amazes me sometimes. Yeah the game has it's flaws, that I have no doubt of being fixed in the near future. Did some of you "cry babies" want to wait another 5 years for a "perfect" game? Doubt it.

GT5 is awesome, and I've played GT like it was a religion since the first, it will only get better. People need to have a little more trust and faith sometimes.

Quite a few people in this thread have some very good points, but the ones just crying for the sake of crying need to get somewhere.
5 years and this is all PD has to offer? So wait another 5 years? LOL, there are a ton of things wrong with this game and seeing that you are already at Level 31 theres no doubt you've gotten used it. I'm already at 40% and only at level 18, and the only one crying here is PD when they realize they let the competition catch up and lost a ton of fan base.

Sony I hope you're listening because people have been getting fed up since GT3, and some of your old fans have gone on to buy a whole other system just to try a game thats made by developers who listens to the consumer's input.

I keep seeing this sentiment thrown around to defend the game, which surprises me because it is so obviously false.
LOL, you don't really have a choice but to grind.
 
Im looking forward to updates to this game but post December I honestly can't see them releasing any other big updates. Maybe a little bit of dlc here and then but it wouldn't surprise me if PD are almso 100% GT6 now :/
 
I have to disagree. I do not think the karts nor the buses make it any less complete and the high low beams are not a big deal but a nice touch.

The things that are incomplete are things like the fully adjustable tranny that is not fully adjustable. If I remember correctly even the close ratio trannys had the ability to adjust the final drive in GT4.

The absence of being able to create a point to point rally track or race the created tracks in your private lounge with your friends. An advertised feature.

The absence of any kind of leaderboard system.

The inability to save any tune other than that which is currently on the car.

Many tracks not used in career mode.

Missing tracks that were supposed to be included.

No online B-Spec functions but they were advertised to be there.

No credits or XP in online races.

Tire wear not done correctly in career mode.

I love the game. I love the cars. Nurburgring is awesome. Yet it is not complete and that is plain to see and has nothing to do with the Bus nor the karts. These things are actually complete and done well IMO.

Sorry what I meant by that is that they spent time developing those features rather than finishing the things they should have (as you mentioned).

Agreed though, the Nurburgring is awesome. It's clear that a LOT of work went into getting this track perfect, its just a shame that the same attention to detail doesn't show through the rest of the game
 
In those 5 years, they worked on Tourist Trophy, GT5 Prologue and GT PSP, aside from GT5.

And ironically TT, GTHD, GT5P and GTPSP have a broader more mature set of features and where more COMPLETE than GT5 is.
 
I like GT5 , but PD is completely disorganized. We have to hold our breath and hope that KAZ tweets something? why don't they have a point man to answer questions on Forums?!
Because they would be eaten alive for the fifteen minutes it would take mods to realize it was hopeless and close the forum. ;)

Polyphony not having PR people isn't a sign of disorganization, GT5 is. Some of you have a death grip on naysaying. We've had two updates in the three weeks since release. I don't know if ADD is rampant among the Earth's population, but something is very wrong with people when they act as if nothing is going on, when obvious work IS being done and delivered to us periodically.

The real question is why we're in this fix to start with. I'm in agreement with those who insist that SONY is to blame for a lot of it. Forcing work on 3D effects and the production of an entirely different game in the middle of GT5 production had to be a headache for everyone on the team.

Think of it this way. Say Peter Gabriel or Sting are hard at work on their magnum opus album. Everyone on Earth is excited. But then their production company tells him that they have to do a film soundtrack on a film that's a guaranteed blockbuster - actually is kind of a lame flick, but their name will help with public interest. This drags on for untold months. Then when they finally get back to work on their album, their company insists that a bunch of it be rewritten so the arrangement and instrument placement works with a 7.1 surround mix. What can they do, except try their best to accommodate?

Obviously, the hypothetical album has a good chance of not being their best work. Kaz had to cobble some kind of content for GT5, because more of us were hollering that we didn't want a GT5 that was a repeat of GT3, a small game with little to do and very few cars, than were shouting about damage. He did what he could in that regard, and I'm content with that.

But the rest, I'm baffled over. The evidence is that the game designers were being yanked around by SONY execs and couldn't finalize an overall game scheme. And to me, it looks like they wanted to go in a bold direction for GT5 but didn't have the time to build that version right, and so they scrambled to come up with a quick replacement. I've been saying for a couple of weeks that the online game was the one they wanted to turn into a playground as big as GT4 and with lots of stuff to do, along with user generated events. But the server system SONY has now couldn't even handle the basic GT5 we got at launch, and so we were told to unplug our PS3s from the net if we were having trouble with performance. This online playground just can't happen until SONY funds a massive expansion of the PSN to handle it. But this left them with a VERY small GT5, and also a very crippled GT5 economy since the online stuff was hobbled. The experience point system looks to be wedgied in at the last hour as a gimmick to prolong gameplay. But why they didn't expand A-Spec mode with more events still bothers me. Creating racing events are the easy thing. But then, there's also the tuning implementation. Transmission settings... heck we don't even have brake upgrades! This game is an enigma wrapped in a 1080p package...

As a matter of fact I think that he's getting old..and one thing about old people they get very pig/hard headed in there ways.That's why I think we have this slow to implement Livery/paint editor in GT5 i.e ... select your own racing car numbers/more paint solid color variations.

A younger modern developer would have realized that more body kits and Livery paint options is very good for the car racing genre.It sure isn't a negative.

A younger Kaz of todays generation would have giving us Tunning Mods out the Butt. And still would be the best racing physics in a console game.
I don't think age has anything to do with it. GT5 was getting loaded up with features as it was, and it's hurting the graphic performance. On top of that, the game is stressing older PS3s to the point of failure sometimes, just like GT4 did on PS2. I'd love a Forza 2-like Livery Editor as much as the average car artist, but the game engine will have to be tweaked to support it. Look at Forza 3. Most backgrounds look better in FM2. The same 8 car races as FM1. It looks like unless there's a serious optimization effort, FM4 won't be any bigger or better.

The reason shadows look iffy in GT5 is because the PS3 is running out of resources, so rather than drop the framerate to 30fps or sap physics calculations, shadows get the short sheet. Prologue has 16 cars on track, better shadows and much better looking replays, most likely because it isn't having to deal with 3D and a time of day implementation. I think liveries could have made it in if SONY had left PD alone to make GT5 the way they wanted.

GT5 is going to grow over the coming months as features are added and things tweaked. I have high hopes, and I think most of them will be realized. But as with all things GT, we'll see. ;)
 
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