Alternative Ideas to the Current Gran Turismo Formula

[JohnBM01]

Subtle tweaks to a formula can make things for the better... or for the worse. With the wait for Gran Turismo 5, I've devised this thread to discuss and allow for discussion of changing the formula somewhat to keep things fresh and make the GT experience different. While these changes may or may not find their way into GT5, at least discussing these things give you some hope that maybe we'll see these things for (hypothetical name) Gran Turismo 6. This is not along the lines of "what would you like to see in GT5," but more along the lines of "how would you change current practices in Gran Turismo?" This encompasses elements from all Gran Turismo games thus far. Consider this an R&D (research and development) discussion on Gran Turismo.

I, as usual, have all kinds of ideas. So what I'll do is discuss a current practice and introduce an alternative. I'm always an inspired divo (male version of a diva), so I'll always show my inspirations. Any future things I'll discuss will probably be featured in my blog. Here are some examples:


Acquiring Race Cars
Current Practice: purchase them from a dealer or win one as a prize car
Alternative: complete challenges to win one; win a race car as a rental
Inspiration(s): (earn cars) Sega GT, Tourist Trophy; (earn cars through renting) Ferrari Challenge Trofeo Pirelli

The idea for this comes in the fact that the big-name race cars were ridiculously hard to obtain. It used to be 2M Credits just to get some of the better racing cars. In GT4, you have to do a LOT of big-money races just to have the opportunity to purchase those race cars from the dealer. My inspirations here come from "Sega GT" and "Tourist Trophy." In the original Sega GT, if you clear a license test by achieving the quickest lap time, you will be given the opportunity to compete in a Works Cup race, which is just one race featuring only race cars. You are able to change settings on your race car. If you win the Works Cup race for that manufacturer, you will win and own that Works car (which Works cars cannot be sold). Tourist Trophy's model basically has you picking a machine to win with. Challenges include time trials and makeshift races. If you clear the challenge, you win that motorcycle. In addition, you had to have a certain license to be able to access certain motorcycles. Ferrari Challenge Trofeo Pirelli had a nice practice exercised- be able to purchase cars or rent racing cars for a certain championship. This is something I thought of when you compare this game to Sega GT and Tourist Trophy. I've never tried renting in this game, but it's something I wanted to put out there.

How would this be implemented for Gran Turismo 5? There are two practices at work. Perhaps imagine you had to complete a race challenge or time trial with a given race car after applying for a challenge. Another practice would be to apply to "rent" a race car for a given championship. You have to pay to rent a car only for a championship. And if you win that championship or race, you win that car (and maybe another bonus car from that race or challenge). A realistic aspect to this is that you have to be able to earn a bid to race in a certain series. I once did a blog entry regarding online racing concerns in Gran Turismo 5 ( http://johnbmarine.blogspot.com/2009/09/gran-turismo-5-online-racing-concerns.html ), and I mentioned iracing.com. A key element from the second video was that iracing.com was used to screen racers for the Jetta TDI Cup. The best drivers in this screening will get a full-time ride in the Jetta TDI Cup challenge.

Imagine doing this for... especially the One-Make Races, where you have Cup cars (like the Volkswagen Beetle Cup, Renault Clio V6 Cup, and things thereof) and don't have to purchase a works race car (or maybe customize one for racing) beforehand. Of course, if you win the race, you win that car. I may even think of doing this for Driving Missions where you race Works cars.

If there are blank race cars (which hint towards painting up cars with various liveries), you may even have the ability to race an "unsponsored" blank car. You win that car if you win a given challenge. So what do you make of this idea?



If the Event Generator Returns...

Current Practice: make the Event Generator as is
Alternative: enhance upon GT2's Event Generator and even include championship generating
Inspiration(s): Gran Turismo 2, Gran Turismo PSP, ToCA Race Driver series

You have to have played Gran Turismo 2 to know what I'm talking about. GT2's Event Generator allowed you the opportunity to race in a random event at a random track in a random direction for only two laps. You had a choice of difficulty levels ranging from Easy to Professional. If you race the Professional difficulty, you could compete in a makeshift five-race championship. The point of this Event Generator was to make money and simply go racing without having to always focus on the pre-determined championships in Gran Turismo games. Gran Turismo 4 had this similar approach, but you had more control over where you wanted to race. You even had control over what kind of difficulty (based on the level of your car's performance) of racers you want to go against.

I had made a blog entry explaining my Event Generator prototype here: Event/Championship Generator Idea. But for the most part, I want this to be implemented for Gran Turismo 5. Now you can still enjoy online racing, but I want the offline element to still have a great model. Where does GT PSP come into this? Gran Turismo PSP allowed you the opportunity to come up with racing events for any given number of laps. Longer races yield you more money for a strong finish. So it's possible to have your own endurances if you so choose to run any makeshift endurances. To be fair... no prize cars can be won for these generated races and championships.

I have a bunch of options when it comes to generating races and championships. You can begin by selecting a race or a championship. A championship requires three or more races. I think the maximum is 15. Again, read my blog entry for more detailed info on this. If racing a championship, you may even set up how many races per event take place. Look to series like the British Touring Car Championship and Australian V8 Supercars, which have multiple races at some tracks. You then select how long the race lasts, either by laps or by time or both (like Petit Le Mans). This will allow you to make some championship races that have a marquee event that lasts for so long. Should we get actual racing weekends, imagine being able to set up practice sessions, qualifying formats (more in my blog), warm-ups, and more. Also consider various practice formats and various qualifying formats. If there are multiple races at a track, imagine being able to invert the finishing order for the next race.





So these are just a few ideas. If I think of any other alternative ideas (or if you want to suggest changes), I'll be free to share them in future posts for debate/discussion.

 

[BigJimmy]

I have always wanted to race against cars from my own garage. You could do this in Forza 1 (although colours and Graphics were not the same).

This could be part of the Event Generator I guess.

 

[JohnBM01]

Here's another kind of idea I have. Whether or not we see this (or any of my ideas) really depends.



Convert Cars to Racing Spec
Current Practice: buy a street car and tune it up to be its own race car
Alternative: purchase kits that can convert a street car to a race car (more information in description)
Inspiration(s): certain racing series, such as Miata Cup; Gran Turismo 2

I thought of this idea in regards to certain race series that feature racing cars that are very production-car based and don't allow for extreme modifications. I'm talking about purchasing a kit that turns a street car into a race car. Either that, or series with proper racing cars, but not truly extreme in tuning. Examples of such machines would include series such as the following:

* Mazda MX-5 Cup (read this for insight: http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/dis...otorsportsMx5Cup&sectionParameter=cars&bhcp=1 )
* Toyota Pro-Celebrity Race
* Ferrari Challenge
* Volkswagen Jetta TDI Cup
* " New Beetle Cup
* " Lupo Cup

A car I was looking for online was the Pontiac Solstice Z0K Club Sport. This is purely a competition version of the Pontiac Solstice. I included this car since I've seen it in iracing. But I think you know where I'm trying to get at here. All you need to do is purchase a certain car. If you can purchase a kit that makes it eligible for a racing series, you will be able to compete in that series. It's basically for club-level and some semi-professional One-Make racing series.



Just giving some inspiration...

 

[Lain]

Interesting ideas. But I'd rather keep car acquisition the same.

I agree with BigJimmy though. Ideally, I'd want a mode where you could choose all of the cars participating. Perhaps even with some customization options for some aspects of the AI for each vehicle. And you could either participate in the race, or let it be an all-AI race where you just watch.

 

[Worst_Driver]

I love the idea of the event generator. It would eliminate the grinding that becomes a bit boring. I hope it gets back into GT5.

I like your idea about modifying street cars, something like in NFS Shift,(works kit) you have to buy all the avaliable parts and then you pay a certain amount of money to get a full conversion.

 

[JohnBM01]

Another idea:



GT Academy
Current Practice: learn concepts on-the-fly in license tests
Alternative: practice various concepts in preparation for license tests; racing school involvement
Inspiration(s): MotoGP 4's Training mode, Skip Barber Racing School, and Skip Barber Racing Series

Blog entry: http://johnbmarine.blogspot.com/2009/10/gt-academy.html

You're learning things on the fly in license tests. You do more along the lines of continually failing while trying to adjust on the fly. I think PD could use a Racing School format to aid in helping out novice racers as well as practice concepts leading up to license tests. I thought of implementing GT Academy into making it the place to actually learn driving and racing concepts as opposed to just going out cold turkey racing right away. You race in cars supplemented by GT Academy. These will include specially-tuned cars, various kinds of single-seater formula cars, go-karts, stock cars (with the NASCAR deal), rally cars, and the like. The only game closest to an actual racing school environment was Gran Turismo 2 as there were certain license test areas that weren't part of a race track you could actually race at.

I actually wanted this idea to be its own standalone thread. But I wanted to introduce this concept here. As I mention in the blog entry I posted earlier in this post, I think with the various kinds of racing, facilities should be made available to race in a variety of cars in a variety of different situations. I mentioned various racing schools and programs in-game to help you become a better racer. Certain schools even have their own seperate championships, so you can make some extra money while enjoy some great racing. That's where the Skip Barber Racing Series inspiration comes into play. The moment you have a license test available, you can practice various concepts in preparation for a set of upcoming license tests. Some people hate that it's required to do license tests. But in my view, every Gran Turismo is a new experience. Do you start off with the (using an RPG example) most powerful weapons and magics in an RPG against the strongest enemies when starting an RPG? I don't hear people being forced to go up the ranks in RPGs just to get the best magic, so why do people complain so much on being "forced" to do license tests? Just get the damned licenses in the game and work your way up the ladder.

A positive to the GT Academy idea I've put forth is that it kind of gives you somewhat of a racing career focus. Think about it: up-and-coming racer in Gran Turismo 5 dreams of becoming a Gran Turismo World Champion. He/She completes his/her B-License and competes in (hypothetical name) GT Academy Formula Series, works his/her way up to his/her Super License... It adds a career-style element while not being completely a career-focused racing game. When not racing, GT Academy should be a place to learn various concepts and practice different aspects of racing and tuning in the game. None of these events should be required for 100% completion (unless winning the racing school championships count as 100% to you). Still, it should be a facility to help novice racers build confidence while keeping skills fresh for veteran GT gamers (like myself).

If not a proper facility for testing various kinds of racing, then expand Driving Park to become its own proving ground, like the Proving Grounds in the Forza games (especially Forza 2 and 3).





If I get a lot of good marks on this alternative idea, I may consider making this its own thread for further discussion.

 

[Seismica]

What is the 'current' Gran Turismo Formula? GT4? GT5P?

 

[tankuroded]

^ It is the about the features, IMHO.

 

[Seismica]

1) You win race cars from the Missions/challenges in GT4 💡

2) Racing modification in GT1/2 was oversimplified. PD has said there will be aerodynamic adjustment to cars, which hints at splitters etc. which are often used when customising a car for racing. But i definetly agree with that one, we should be able to get road cars up to racing standards through upgrades, as in the past race cars have had an automatically higher amount of grip than road cars, no matter how you set them up.

3) Complex string in GT3 was practice for many types of cornering. Hopefully it will make a comeback. I also agree that expansion of license tests is needed. But usually each license has full track tests which incorporate the things you learnt in the tests prior.

 

[JohnBM01]

Thanks, seismica. Now to the points you mentioned...

1.) I mentioned getting race cars in different ways because it's almost unfathomable trying to pick up and save all kinds of money just to get the better race cars in GT4. I'm even fortunate I sold all those rally cars from the Special Condition races just to get the better race cars. The 2005 Pescarolo is the key car I use. I've even used it to win the 24 Hours of Le Mans... I mean, Circuit de la Sarthe. My idea is more like, "if you want to win this car, complete some challenges with this car." It's the inspiration of Tourist Trophy for this one. That is... unless you want to save a whole lot of money (while not getting to the 3.5 million or 4.5 million mark easily) for a long time just to get the better racing cars...

2.) One thing I've always wondered is... with cars that CAN be adjusted, why not be able to adjust those things without having to purchase extra parts? For example, if a car with a rear wing or spoiler can actually be adjusted, shouldn't you be able to adjust them without having to purchase one of those wings from GT Auto? I would love for the opportunity to take a car and customize it to some kind of proper race car. Either that, or a production-based race car. One, I guess you can call it easy modification would be a proper racing interior with a nice steering wheel that has a digital tachometer and stuff. Customizing and tuning cars will take on a new dimension from the inside as opposed to just any exterior modifications.

3.) I'm just looking for ways to help out beginners more. Expanding and enhancing this facility will help in this department. I just want the best experience for myself including other GT gamers.



Thanks to everyone for all of your opinions. When I say "current practice," I'm talking about things we've seen before in other GT games. These are alternative ideas to what has been presented in GT games past either as modifications or as completely new features. If you have your own alternatives to what's been featured in past GTs (GT1 - GT5P), then go right ahead and talk about your own alternatives.

 

[loki993]

Some sort of story mode. I dont know about you, but the Get money, get car and do race format, get more money, get better car, race, Ie grinding, that the series has used since the beginning was fun at the start, but it has become tired.

How about this you start out as a club racer at the bottom and work your way up to GT champion. I know this is the basic concept of the game as it is, but it need to be more involved, more interesting. In its current form its just a means to the end.

Throw in some cut scenes maybe.
Work your way up the GT ladder.
get offers from different sponsors. get better sponsors.

Have racing teams that can invite you to join or hire you for some races

Be able to start your own racing team when you get high enough.

Things like that, just ways to make the game feel like less of a grind, because the "goal" of the game ATM is to just get the most cars possible and hit 100 percent. Id almost rather play through some sort of a story, where all those thing come with it. Thing is the story cant be linear, it would have to be very opened.

I though I say a thread somewhere about if Gt could be a RPG, I would think adding some RPG elements to the game could make it a lot more interesting and a lot more fun.

 

[reaperman]

I say:

remove prize cars--as soon as you win *one* and sell it, the best part of the game is over. and even worse is the temptation to go back and win it again just to sell it.

deduct vehicle damage from winnings up to 75% of the prize, with the percentage increasing with difficulty.

auctions and classifieds for used cars. Limit dealers to current models, and let folks hunt for classics.

I guess it goes hand-in-hand with the event generator previously mentioned, but GT should stop forcing me to upgrade to faster cars by giving each class only a few races. Every class of car should kick off a never-ending career path. For example if I want to stick with my entry-level 60hp hatchback, let me race it against harder and harder races until I grow old and gray and win the hatchback world championship. Let the drivers get smarter and tune their cars to match mine, as we race around the full track selection forever. The GT formula as I know it is to give that car 3-5 races, against the dumbest packs of the slowest cars who make no effort to tune themselves.

just give me a never-ending randomly generated road. let me pick how curvy I want it, and how much scenery variety I like. Make timers and other cars entirely optional so I can sit back and get a feel for the car without the stress of having to be fast.

 

[JohnBM01]

Here's an idea I thought of:

Developing Race Cars, Rather Than Buy Parts
Current Practice (since Gran Turismo 3): power can be upgraded, some other parts could be purchased in addition
Alternative: spend money developing race car parts to make them better without having to purchase parts
Inspiration: ???

When I got the Formula Gran Turismo in Gran Turismo 4 recently, I was imagining if I could spend money to develop better parts for a race car rather than purchase extra parts. Think of cars like the Volkswagen Lupo Cup Cars. You could be able to spend money developing race cars rather than have to buy parts for them. Teams often try to develop better parts in real racing (if I'm not mistaken). So why not? What I would be unsure of is having this trickle down into being able to developing your own racing cars from production cars.



Just another kind of idea I had. Any alternative ideas you want to suggest for GT5?

 

[Darla Starch]

About all I can really suggest is once an event is complete, remove it from the race lists for a certain amount of in-game days, depending on the status of the event. (Sunday Cup, reappears after a week. Nurburgring 24 hrs, reappears after a year.)

Just trying to prevent cash-farming here.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Hi John, that's a brilliant idea mate.I was thinking the same for my next real life car.Jaguar XJC if you are curious.That is also a good idea SecretAgentZero.

Nathan.

 

[brainfade]

How about having the option of hand picking your opponents in arcade mode?

 

[Guffaluff]

I'd love to see them tackle offroad racing. Then I'm not talking about Rally, because obviously they are doing that, but proper offroaders. 💡

 

[GT_Prologue5]

Sorry for reviving a sorta dead thread here but:

Proper Qualifying
Current System: drive endless laps until you get it
Alternative: 1/2 Lap Round
Inspiration: GT1's Qualifying

 

[Akira AC]

Sadly most of the ideas from other pro racing games comes themselves into conflict,as a practical example:

I will mention TOCA Race Driver 3,in this game you earn experience by winning races and then you enter into the next category,right until then but there is no credits or any exchangeable media to get more cars,it was just based on challenges and professional racing.

this game complements almost half of what you are saying and your idea is apply both formats into a single career structure,the problem of applying both formulas is that one is based on experience level,while the other one is based on getting credits, which is the is the goal to acquire cars.

One formula that can be use is a more diversification of both license and areas,once suggested this i will shoe a practical example:

level 1: UK Amateur racing
-----Upgrade car with Cr.-------
level1.5:licence test for level 2
-----Upgrade car with Cr.-------
level 2: European Amateur racing
-----Upgrade car To racing level-------
level2.5:licence test for level 3
-----Upgrade car to touring racing level-------
level 3: World Amateur racing


Now notice that for getting from level 1 to level will require both credits for getting the cars and upgrade them,and an intermediate licence test to acquire level to race in the next category,which leads into a problem and it is that it becomes massive complicated(taking in count the scale of GT games,both cars and tracks and categories).

To this Idea I also want to Add facilities and maybe a racing team for management or in some cases sponsorship from a race team to level up,as we know everything is almost based on sponsorship,in the newer team of F1 like Hispania racing the drivers give money to the team to let them drive,to gain experience and for the development of the team.

As for me the current level is fine,what we need is another TOCA race driver game based on the same basis of TOCA 3, improve into the GT concept is really hard, innovating on it is just as hard so nice thinking there,evolution will be the next step into GT games.

 

[gtone339]

Free roaming.

 

[E RaK]

In response to the comments about racing teams and sponsors, along with car acquisition, why not turn the game into an rpg style racing CAREER, in which you earn a spot on a racing team, and are given a team car to keep to tune and upgrade. Success, starting in the lower powered classes should lead to bigger contracts and sponsorship deals. As enough prize and contract money is earned, you can start your own race team, or use it to buy cars outside of the core racing occupation to use in a more GT4 like manner (i.e. weekend events like the Sunday Cup, practice, photomode, etc/cars earned from racing should also be included here).

 

[Tornado]

1. Optional/removed licence tests. Face it, at this point anyone who's played a GT game in the past views these as busywork. They are good for getting you a good feel of the physics engine, but then again so are the actual races. Just give people the 10000 credit starting cash, and let them have at it. If they want to try for bonus cars, let them do them by their own volition (basically, like the driving missions of GT4). I think it is somewhat absurd that you still have to slog through a couple of hours of hand holding to even be allowed to enter better races.
2. Custom race option. You pick the track, distance and other options (damage, time of day, amount of races, etc.). Then you pick the cars you are racing against. Basically, the same system from GTPSP only not completely neutered by forcing randomly generated AI on you. You get complete control rather than the illusion of it.

 

[JDMKING13]

1. 
   [*]Optional/removed licence tests. Face it, at this point anyone who's played a GT game in the past views these as busywork. They are good for getting you a good feel of the physics engine, but then again so are the actual races. Just give people the 10000 credit starting cash, and let them have at it. If they want to try for bonus cars, let them do them by their own volition (basically, like the driving missions of GT4). I think it is somewhat absurd that you still have to slog through a couple of hours of hand holding to even be allowed to enter better races.
2. Custom race option. You pick the track, distance and other options (damage, time of day, amount of races, etc.). Then you pick the cars you are racing against. Basically, the same system from GTPSP only not completely neutered by forcing randomly generated AI on you. You get complete control rather than the illusion of it.

No i love licence test. It actually teaches people something you cant get just racing around the track, matter fact they should make you past all of them before playing online( Pro physics) Like they did in GT5P. I'm down for that 👍

Busy work are those Driving Missions

 

[Tornado]

No i love licence test.

That's great. Most people do not.

It actually teaches people something you cant get just racing around the track,

No they don't, at least not to the extent that they should be forced on the player. Especially not for the large returning fanbase of the GT games, who already know all of the concepts involved and just need some actual playtime to get down to business. Me spending a dozen laps around a track is going to help me far more than having to redo a single licence test a dozen times because I can't get it just right. Recall Test A-4 from GT3 if you want an example.

I'll let you in on a secret: I've started GT2 from scratch probably a dozen times. Outside of Test A-5, which I've had to do each and every time I've started the game, I've never done a single licence test more than twice. But despite my absolute mastery of Test A-5, I don't see myself as a master of getting a Honda Integra Type R to turn left. I just see it as busywork for me to do until I can start actually playing the game.

Take them if you want to be a better, faster driver in GT5. Don't hold 90% of the game's content hostage until you finish them all, which is what all of the past GT games have done.

Busy work are those Driving Missions

Good thing they are optional then.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> Hmm...

Customizing Race Cars to Road Cars
-> An option for your car to be tuned to street legal use. I always go bonkers whenever I see an un-liveried race cars. Or...

Purchasing Un-Liveried Race Cars
-> A race car that you can start customizing on how the way you want it.

^ Here are my examples:

Before

After

-> I always find liveried race cars boring. Its some sort of a feeling that they're just that, an autograph in motorsports history. Not many people will agree with me, but at least I'm special. On to the wish list I go!

 

[JDMKING13]

That's great. Most people do not.


No they don't, at least not to the extent that they should be forced on the player. Especially not for the large returning fanbase of the GT games, who already know all of the concepts involved and just need some actual playtime to get down to business. I'll let you in on a secret: I've started GT2 from scratch probably a dozen times. Outside of Test IB-5, which I've had to do each and every time I've started the game, I've never done a single licence test more than twice.

Take them if you want to be a better, faster driver in GT5. Don't hold 90% of the game's content hostage until you finish them all, which is what all of the past GT games have done.


Good thing they are optional then.

Exactly so whats the problem? All experience GT players should zip through them, however new GT drivers need a chance to play through these test. You can say what you want they will help newcomers.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Exactly so whats the problem? All experience GT players should zip through them, however new GT drivers need a chance to play through these test. You can say what you want they will help newcomers.

I think Toronado isn't arguing that vets can fly through them. He's arguing that a huge chunk of the game shouldn't be held hostage until they're completed. While I love license tests, I get his point.

That said, they do help newcomers, and teach people important lessons that actually apply to the real world, since the physics are more realistic than the average arcade racer. My ex hated video games, I hooked up the DFP with GT4 once and had her go through the license tests. She now understand the concepts of slow-in, fast-out, and the basic idea behind racing lines and clipping apexes. You can't progress far in the game without the knowledge the licenses provide (though for anybody who's played any GT game before, they should probably have all that knowledge anyways).

 

[Tornado]

Exactly so whats the problem? All experience GT players should zip through them,

But you still have to do them. No exceptions, every time you restart the game. Or else you are restricted (usually) to 6 or so races and cars with horsepower just above double digits. I've been playing GT games since number 2 back in 1998. Why do I have to take a few hours to do licence tests at this point when I already know everything they are trying to teach me?
Say what you want about practical experience, but the Reference Manual from GT2 taught me just as much as the licence tests did the first time I did them way back in 1998, and it didn't take a few hours to read it. And if I needed practical experience, I would rather get it on my own terms fiddling around in Arcade Mode than sit through a bunch of arcane tests that prevent me from actually playing the game proper until they are completed.

Forced licence tests are very old school game design for racing games, like broken bridges are to RPGs, and most other sim series have moved beyond them. Why shouldn't GT?

however new GT drivers need a chance to play through these test. You can say what you want they will help newcomers.

I understand that they can help people learn. But why shouldn't they be able to simply enter a race and come to terms with the game themselves, and if they are having too much trouble then try the licence tests to get better?

 

[Smoke&Slide]

In response to the comments about racing teams and sponsors, along with car acquisition, why not turn the game into an rpg style racing CAREER, in which you earn a spot on a racing team, and are given a team car to keep to tune and upgrade. Success, starting in the lower powered classes should lead to bigger contracts and sponsorship deals. As enough prize and contract money is earned, you can start your own race team, or use it to buy cars outside of the core racing occupation to use in a more GT4 like manner (i.e. weekend events like the Sunday Cup, practice, photomode, etc/cars earned from racing should also be included here).

I'd like to try that, especially in the WRC 👍.

 

[JDMKING13]

I think Toronado isn't arguing that vets can fly through them. He's arguing that a huge chunk of the game shouldn't be held hostage until they're completed. While I love license tests, I get his point.

That said, they do help newcomers, and teach people important lessons that actually apply to the real world, since the physics are more realistic than the average arcade racer. My ex hated video games, I hooked up the DFP with GT4 once and had her go through the license tests. She now understand the concepts of slow-in, fast-out, and the basic idea behind racing lines and clipping apexes. You can't progress far in the game without the knowledge the licenses provide (though for anybody who's played any GT game before, they should probably have all that knowledge anyways).

Ok I feel you on that, but your second statement Gets 2 thumbs up 👍 👍 thats whats its all about to me. Whats in Bold is very important.

I understand that they can help people learn. But why shouldn't they be able to simply enter a race and come to terms with the game themselves, and if they are having too much trouble then try the licence tests to get better?

I understand where you are coming from, but can you blame GT for doing this. Usually before you race in a series you have to have a licence to get in. Just as with anything in life you have to become certified before you get into your profession.