Alternative Ideas to the Current Gran Turismo Formula

[Akira AC]

But you still have to do them. No exceptions, every time you restart the game. Or else you are restricted (usually) to 6 or so races and cars with horsepower just above double digits. I've been playing GT games since number 2 back in 1998. Why do I have to take a few hours to do licence tests at this point when I already know everything they are trying to teach me?
Say what you want about practical experience, but the Reference Manual from GT2 taught me just as much as the licence tests did the first time I did them way back in 1998, and it didn't take a few hours to read it. And if I needed practical experience, I would rather get it on my own terms fiddling around in Arcade Mode than sit through a bunch of arcane tests that prevent me from actually playing the game proper until they are completed.

Forced licence tests are very old school game design for racing games, like broken bridges are to RPGs, and most other sim series have moved beyond them. Why shouldn't GT?


I understand that they can help people learn. But why shouldn't they be able to simply enter a race and come to terms with the game themselves, and if they are having too much trouble then try the licence tests to get better?

The Licenses are very basic on the Gran Turismo model,and they right about it,it cut on really well that they expand them into driving missions,the problem that I see you cant get is that the Gran Turismo models is based on experience ,even if you complete the licences you will have to try to get gold rank, which is more challenging and more regarding at the time of getting experience,without licences all racers will be like idiots ramming into each other and not following races lines,basic barking,etc...

 

[twisteddeeds]

But you still have to do them. No exceptions, every time you restart the game. Or else you are restricted (usually) to 6 or so races and cars with horsepower just above double digits. I've been playing GT games since number 2 back in 1998. Why do I have to take a few hours to do licence tests at this point when I already know everything they are trying to teach me?
Say what you want about practical experience, but the Reference Manual from GT2 taught me just as much as the licence tests did the first time I did them way back in 1998, and it didn't take a few hours to read it. And if I needed practical experience, I would rather get it on my own terms fiddling around in Arcade Mode than sit through a bunch of arcane tests that prevent me from actually playing the game proper until they are completed.

Forced licence tests are very old school game design for racing games, like broken bridges are to RPGs, and most other sim series have moved beyond them. Why shouldn't GT?


I understand that they can help people learn. But why shouldn't they be able to simply enter a race and come to terms with the game themselves, and if they are having too much trouble then try the licence tests to get better?

Maybe they should ask at the start of the game, sort of how metal gear solid does it... you know the..

Have you played a previous MGS game?.. etc.

Although I love doing the tests, it lets you get the feel of the new physics and lets you get a feel of the game, and back up to scratch

But I agree that we should have an option in doing or bypassing them.

 

[Tornado]

I understand where you are coming from, but can you blame GT for doing this. Usually before you race in a series you have to have a licence to get in. Just as with anything in life you have to become certified before you get into your profession.

Yes, because GT is a game. GT is not real life. You need to have a competition licence in real life because racing can be dangerous, so you need to know what you are doing to limit the danger.
Several other sim games make the licencing portion completely optional in the "career" mode, so if you get stuck you can practice a bit on the concept you are having trouble with. They allow you the practice if you need it, and they give you bonuses if you do them well. That is a completely different ballpark from what the GT games have always done, which is force you to do them regardless of your skill level and prevent you from playing the game proper until you complete them. Hell, GTPSP went so far as to lock advertised features of the game until you completed some of the licences.

the problem that I see you cant get is that the Gran Turismo models is based on experience

I understand that the licence tests can be of help to people at understanding concepts and building experience. At no point did I argue otherwise. What I am saying is that there is no reason that you should be forced to do them if you don't feel that you need the help they provide.

 

[Akira AC]

I understand that the licence tests can be of help to people at understanding concepts and building experience. At no point did I argue otherwise. What I am saying is that there is no reason that you should be forced to do them if you don't feel that you need the help they provide.

Then that is a personal approaching to it,and in some cases like the Super Licenses you can learn more even if you complete them,take for example Nunburgring driving challenges,even if you were a nunburgring expert on GT4 in GTPSP they teach you to take better lines and diferent braking lines,but license in GT5 will probably teach more stuff than the others GT games do,like night racing and so on.

I will agree in the part that license should not be mandatory,although we now have something call "save files",and for next GT games the licences are require,because they have to teach lesson on features that previous games didn't have.(on an aside note I will say that licences like B or the very basic ones should be skipped by a single mandatory test that give you all gold,avoiding making each section of the license,that could be a solution for that issue).

 

[analog]

I for one like the forced licence system as it is, it's not so much that you don't learn anything doing it any more after playing all GT-games ( although with the new physics it may do exactly that ) but it's also a rite of passage and a familiar or new introduction to the game.
However I wouldn't mind it being optional for those who only see it as a chore but to me it always has been an integral part of the game.

To unlock all events you'll only need to get Bronze which isn't very hard for the majority who chose to purchase GT I guess ( knowing what they pay for ), the only problem I have is wanting Gold on all licences ( which I have done in all previous GT and TT games ) which takes some time, dedication and sheer persistance due to the fact I'm not a true natural I guess.
And besides with the current rate of new GT-titles appearing on the market you'll only have to "repeat" this challenge once every few years and even knowing it will probably be frustrating as hell again I'm looking out to do it all over again.

Although I said I wouldn't mind it being optional, I can see the benefits of a forced-only licence system when you apply it online.
Making certain events only eligible for those who obtained a certain licence ( maybe even only to those who at least obtained Silver ) to make sure the participants can drive or at least made an effort trying.
I'm not saying I'm the best driver out there ( not by a long stretch ) but it at least would hopefully seperate the "punters" and "crash test dummies" from those who seriously want to have a proper race.

 

[JDMKING13]

I for one like the forced licence system as it is, it's not so much that you don't learn anything doing it any more after playing all GT-games ( although with the new physics it may do exactly that ) but it's also a rite of passage and a familiar or new introduction to the game.
However I wouldn't mind it being optional for those who only see it as a chore but to me it always has been an integral part of the game.

To unlock all events you'll only need to get Bronze which isn't very hard for the majority who chose to purchase GT I guess ( knowing what they pay for ), the only problem I have is wanting Gold on all licences ( which I have done in all previous GT and TT games ) which takes some time, dedication and sheer persistance due to the fact I'm not a true natural I guess.
And besides with the current rate of new GT-titles appearing on the market you'll only have to "repeat" this challenge once every few years and even knowing it will probably be frustrating as hell again I'm looking out to do it all over again.

Although I said I wouldn't mind it being optional, I can see the benefits of a forced-only licence system when you apply it online.
Making certain events only eligible for those who obtained a certain licence ( maybe even only to those who at least obtained Silver ) to make sure the participants can drive or at least made an effort trying.
I'm not saying I'm the best driver out there ( not by a long stretch ) but it at least would hopefully seperate the "punters" and "crash test dummies" from those who seriously want to have a proper race.

Thats whats its about ^^^ I like how you said optional(during GT life mode Not online), but getting rid of it NO WAY.

 

[twisteddeeds]

I for one like the forced licence system as it is, it's not so much that you don't learn anything doing it any more after playing all GT-games ( although with the new physics it may do exactly that ) but it's also a rite of passage and a familiar or new introduction to the game.
However I wouldn't mind it being optional for those who only see it as a chore but to me it always has been an integral part of the game.

To unlock all events you'll only need to get Bronze which isn't very hard for the majority who chose to purchase GT I guess ( knowing what they pay for ), the only problem I have is wanting Gold on all licences ( which I have done in all previous GT and TT games ) which takes some time, dedication and sheer persistance due to the fact I'm not a true natural I guess.
And besides with the current rate of new GT-titles appearing on the market you'll only have to "repeat" this challenge once every few years and even knowing it will probably be frustrating as hell again I'm looking out to do it all over again.

Although I said I wouldn't mind it being optional, I can see the benefits of a forced-only licence system when you apply it online.
Making certain events only eligible for those who obtained a certain licence ( maybe even only to those who at least obtained Silver ) to make sure the participants can drive or at least made an effort trying.
I'm not saying I'm the best driver out there ( not by a long stretch ) but it at least would hopefully seperate the "punters" and "crash test dummies" from those who seriously want to have a proper race.

Good points man, maybe they should, include an option for both..

Have the option to choose offline, and maybe everyone be made to do a forced online.. Just to keep everyone in check..

I never thought of it for online... maybe that is because GT has almost always been offline.. (prologue doesn't count... well thats what i tell myself anyhow 👍)

Good to see us all having an amicable disscussion on the subject...

 

[Quintin03]

Offline the license tests should be just like they were in GT4: every race, with the exception of the most basic ones, should have a minimum license requirement based on the difficulty of the race. For online whoever runs the race should be capable of determining what license every contestant must have to enter the race.

 

[Tornado]

I can agree with the idea of an online-licence test force option, though I'm not sure how much that would do to undermine the more dedicated griefers.

Offline the license tests should be just like they were in GT4: every race, with the exception of the most basic ones, should have a minimum license requirement based on the difficulty of the race.

Why.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Although I said I wouldn't mind it being optional, I can see the benefits of a forced-only licence system when you apply it online.
Making certain events only eligible for those who obtained a certain licence ( maybe even only to those who at least obtained Silver ) to make sure the participants can drive or at least made an effort trying.
I'm not saying I'm the best driver out there ( not by a long stretch ) but it at least would hopefully seperate the "punters" and "crash test dummies" from those who seriously want to have a proper race.

I never thought about this, but it could definitely, definitely improve online matters. Well, unless we are able to download other saves from people. Then there's nothing stopping the average punting idiot from downloading a golded save and creating mayhem online.

In relation to Toronado's comment about them locking features, I did hope they would get rid of the frankly stupid Arcade Mode setup where people have to own the car in Sim Mode for it to be available. It makes me happy I use GTPSP just to grind to buy a complete collection, since I'll be able to have them all available in that mode with a transfer (so I guess that Arcade will have limited choices out of the box, again). For casual gamers, or for people looking just to take a quick test-drive of a car, having the whole menu on display helps immensely. Limit them so they have to be driven stock online, too; that way, the people who do want to mod them will have to put some effort into obtaining them. I feel like that's fair.

(EDIT) The main problem with the licenses, as they are currently set up, is that there's no progression in difficulty from say, A, to S License. A driver who's good enough to pass with a bronze in one of the earlier licenses can usually pass one of the later licenses with it too. It plays directly into what Toronado's saying; they don't really show somebody who's "advanced", so much as just put in enough time. It's a tricky situation, of course; raise the bar and some people just won't be able to acquire the final licenses, and they might give up on the game completely because of it. But the online idea could still work, if say, an event wouldn't allow people who didn't have at least Silver on every test, to enter.

 

[Tornado]

It plays directly into what Toronado's saying; they don't really show somebody who's "advanced", so much as just put in enough time. It's a tricky situation, of course; raise the bar and some people just won't be able to acquire the final licenses, and they might give up on the game completely because of it.

Its not that hard to solve. No one has given me a real reason why they should actually be mandatory for single player, so just make them optional (keep in mind that when I said "remove them altogether" in my initial post I was thinking more along the lines of "make them more like Driving Missions in that they award some money and bonus cars"). That solves both problems by itself. The people that want to do them could still do them. The people that don't wouldn't have to unless they need to.

But the online idea could still work, if say, an event wouldn't allow people who didn't have at least Silver on every test, to enter.

Ouch.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Its not that hard to solve. No one has given me a real reason why they should actually be mandatory for single player, so just make them optional (keep in mind that when I said "remove them altogether" in my initial post I was thinking more along the lines of "make them more like Driving Missions in that they award some money and bonus cars"). That solves both problems by itself. The people that want to do them could still do them. The people that don't wouldn't have to unless they need to.

I can't remember, did Driving Missions contribute to your game completion percentage, though?

As long as licenses still didn't contribute to 100%, yeah, I guess they could be optional. I would still prefer the prize cars handed out for gold to be rare and unavailable anywhere else in GT Mode, like GT1, since it would encourage some people to push for it, without having an "incomplete" game, so to say. And for all that is good in the world, don't give bonus cars for all bronze, or all silver! It was ridiculous that I ended up with 15 cars in GT4 before even entering my first race.

Ouch.

Well, even if you think they should be optional, you gotta admit that license test times are pretty solid indicators of someone's skill level. It's possible to finish tons of series in GT4 for some utter novice in an over-powered car, bumping his way to glory. If I'm racing someone who's managed silver, or gold, across the license board, there's a better chance they're just a consistently fast, clean racer.

 

[twisteddeeds]

I can't remember, did Driving Missions contribute to your game completion percentage, though?

As long as licenses still didn't contribute to 100%, yeah, I guess they could be optional. I would still prefer the prize cars handed out for gold to be rare and unavailable anywhere else in GT Mode, like GT1, since it would encourage some people to push for it, without having an "incomplete" game, so to say. And for all that is good in the world, don't give bonus cars for all bronze, or all silver! It was ridiculous that I ended up with 15 cars in GT4 before even entering my first race.



Well, even if you think they should be optional, you gotta admit that license test times are pretty solid indicators of someone's skill level. It's possible to finish tons of series in GT4 for some utter novice in an over-powered car, bumping his way to glory. If I'm racing someone who's managed silver, or gold, across the license board, there's a better chance they're just a consistently fast, clean racer.

I agree, there has to be a balance within the game.

Nothing is more annoying when you try to drive clean and you are wiped out by someone who is more concerned in getting into 1st place...

I think online should have a seperate license.. not so much as they have to have all gold, my limit would be silver, if not that just to keep some sort of level *standard if you will".

I suppose what we all want is balance.

 

[Tornado]

I can't remember, did Driving Missions contribute to your game completion percentage, though?

Yes, and I agree that would be a problem. I was thinking they could be a combination of the Coffee Break challenges and the Driving Missions. Doing them well awards money and bonus cars like the Driving Missions, but they don't add to the overall completion and you don't have to do them like the Coffee Breaks.

It was ridiculous that I ended up with 15 cars in GT4 before even entering my first race.

Especially when a lot of the cars ended up in the Used Car sections anyways.

Well, even if you think they should be optional, you gotta admit that license test times are pretty solid indicators of someone's skill level.

Don't get me wrong, that's not what I meant. The idea of licences being a way to set multiplayer options seems perfectly fine to me. It just seems a bit harsh to have an online race conditions be Silver everything, mostly because it implies one for a Gold Everything. With the exception of GT3, I've never been able to be that consistent. I can get almost all golds, but there are a few that I have trouble even passing. I think simply attaining the licences would be good enough.

There is also the problem that PD tends to diddle with the times required based on what region you live in.

 

[Niels]

As for the liscence thing and possible awards:
I'm still wondering why you would cycle a Tour the France to get to wear a yellow jersey.
Why not make some sort of livery option or a special paint job in order to get people to start earning those gold medals.

Would prevent people from having to gold a liscence just so they can drive the car they always wanted to. That's not a good solution IMO.

 

[analog]

To be honest I suggested or meant to suggest the licences obtained in GT-mode to use for online-racing as well making it an obligation to aquire if you wanted to participate in those events.
If a separate licence system would be in place purely for online ( which I'm not against per se ) it could be equally objected to as the one in GT-mode.
One licence system for both offline and online would probably be enough as the offline one could include teaching aspects/rules of online-racing as well.
Both or only one system could still ofcourse be optional, but it would therefore still outrule being eligible for certain online-events which was the main objection to a forced system expressed in this thread.

Personally I have no objection to the forced approach as it is now and the licences obtained in those tests ( one licence system is more than enough even I admit ) could be seen as an entry for certain select online-races.
Making it optional offline would therefore still mean having to take the online-licence ( which would have to consist of the same content basically, if it was dumbed down the whole point of "proving yourself" would be worthless ).
One system to suit both online and offline could indeed be created, or making it optional on a whole, combining both mandatory and voluntary is quite hard I guess.

 

[Tornado]

They could sidestep that by making the licences only apply to multiplayer. Then the licences would act like a player rank of sorts.

 

[analog]

They could sidestep that by making the licences only apply to multiplayer. Then the licences would act like a player rank of sorts.

Like a FPS or similar you mean? That would make some sense as an online achievement/ranking system I guess making a separate online licence system possibly redundant even.
I remember playing Battlefield you lost points for shooting players from your own team, something similar could perhaps be done for cheating and punting in online-races deducting points as punishment ( although an objective judgement system might be impossible to implement ).

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Don't get me wrong, that's not what I meant. The idea of licences being a way to set multiplayer options seems perfectly fine to me. It just seems a bit harsh to have an online race conditions be Silver everything, mostly because it implies one for a Gold Everything. With the exception of GT3, I've never been able to be that consistent. I can get almost all golds, but there are a few that I have trouble even passing. I think simply attaining the licences would be good enough.

Hmm, I should've been more clear. I meant that it should be fairly straight-forward for PD to limit the matching in Online based on our license tests. Maybe even include an option to overrule that if you want to race with the unwashed masses who might be punt-crazy? I just mean to say that... perhaps there's a race for, I dunno, Prototype-level cars at La Sarthe online. Maybe if I have all golds in my license it'll match me up with others who've achieved it?

If there's another GT Academy race next year, maybe only allow people who have golded the licenses access? It seems fair, and win-win, to me: the only people who would stand a chance at winning must've been able to achieve it, and the people who haven't quite got there might be encouraged to nail them for the prize? Obviously this is incredibly simplified, but it's an idea.

There is also the problem that PD tends to diddle with the times required based on what region you live in.

True, this needs to end.

...

Another thing I wouldn't mind returning from GT3; if we're going to win a car from a series that can normally be purchased anyways, why not give us a unique colour? I loved me my red bugeye STI, or the crazy Raybrig-like blue NSX. I suppose if we get a proper livery editor, it wouldn't be necessary.

 

[Niels]

Like a FPS or similar you mean? That would make some sense as an online achievement/ranking system I guess making a separate online licence system possibly redundant even.
I remember playing Battlefield you lost points for shooting players from your own team, something similar could perhaps be done for cheating and punting in online-races deducting points as punishment ( although an objective judgement system might be impossible to implement ).

That would be a good idea.
But well there's already damage for this instead of penalties. And you could use money as the "points system" you're talking about. I think it would actually make more sense as well. You can't get away with crashing your car in real life without some financial consequences either.

It's worth the effort to come up with some kind of system for these things as these things could completely make or break the game.

I've got a game called Civilization Revolution. But it's nearly impossible to play online cause of lag kind of stuff and generally just joining a game is impossible. Then halfway it just freezes or kicks you out without any reason. It's like only 2/3rd of the game you're playing now that I've given up the online part of it.

 

[Quintin03]

Why.

Because that's what it's been like since GT1 and it's worked well.

 

[Tornado]

Because that's what it's been like since GT1 and it's worked well.

That isn't a reason. That's "I don't like change" and "I don't care if people don't like something, because I have no problem with it." Stop to think for a second whether a design decision first implemented in a game 13 years ago is acceptable today just because it was acceptable then.
Mandatory licence tests have been pretty much the number one gripe most outsiders to the franchise have had for ten years now, usually even more than lack of damage. In fact, most competing games that offer licence tests have evolved past the "forced tutorial" method of teaching you driving skills. So no, I don't accept "past GT games have done it, so it must be all right" as a valid reason for you to tell me that I should simply deal with PD holding most of the game content hostage until I slog through all of the licence tests.



Cars haven't had damage since GT1, and it has worked well.
Performance parts have been rather basic since GT1 and it has worked well.
Cars haven't had proper collision physics since GT1, and it has worked well.
Cars haven't had intelligent AI since GT1, and it has worked well.
Cars have sounded like someone sneezing through a toilet paper tube since GT1, and it has worked well.
Wallriding has been faster than actually driving the track since GT1, and it has worked well.

 

[Niels]

Cars haven't had damage since GT1, and it has worked well.
Performance parts have been rather basic since GT1 and it has worked well.
Cars haven't had proper collision physics since GT1, and it has worked well.
Cars haven't had intelligent AI since GT1, and it has worked well.
Cars have sounded like someone sneezing through a toilet paper tube since GT1, and it has worked well.
Wallriding has been faster than actually driving the track since GT1, and it has worked well.

Those were always supposed to have been included in GT1, if it wasn't for the hardware limitations.

 

[Tornado]

Which I would buy if there weren't other games on the same hardware that did all of those things.
Regardless, you missed my point.

 

[JohnBM01]

It's nice to see this thread be revived with some new ideas. I admit... I haven't had too many more ideas in recent times. Most of what I discuss nowadays on GT is in my blog. Still, I'm very much excited and in tune with GT5.

 

[SigmaViper11]

Stockpiling would be a nice addition. Eg, stock up on fuel, tires, replacement parts, etc. Adds realism and challenge.