An explanation of American distaste for some cars

[Sniffs]

I believe, once, I read something that outright stated that wagons morphed into the equivalent of a "soccer Mom" car before most of us Americans ever heard of it!.. same thing apparently happened to minivans over the years, and I fully expect "crossovers" to fall to the same prejudice eventually.

i think part of it also has to do with the way the US auto insurance industry is set up. years ago, I got the impression that if it has more than 4 cylinders or less than 4 doors, it's considered a Sports Car, and garners a huge rate increase. also, my van and my SUV's have always been listed as "wagons" with the insurance industry.

Jondot: the two pics you've posted are perfect examples of why Americans consider the Hatchback to be a rusty piece of crap (Yugoslavia's take on the Fiat 124's didn't help, either) I like the Aspire personally (after all, they made the Puma out of it, and that little bugger impresses), but the Fiesta and Festiva that preceded it sure didn't impress.

 

[Jim Prower]

Yeah it's odd, the Magnum disappears (despite having the bad-ass SRT8), yet the Charger still sells. It could just be attributed to the name, but still, what's more awesome than a 425hp grocery getter!

Exactly. They even had to try to pass off the Magnum in the truck line to get them off the lot.

The issue becomes that, when people think of wagons...they think of this.

Awesome, or not, cars like these gave the Wagon it's "Baby on board" stigma which men seem to have wanted to avoid for the past 20 years. and then this was transferred to the Minivan. I dunno what they're gonna do now, though, since SUVs and CUVs are now mom-mobiles, too...

 

[Famine]

I dunno what they're gonna do now, though, since SUVs and CUVs are now mom-mobiles, too...

Marketing. Instead of "station wagon" or "wagon", have Sportwagon (Alfa Romeo 156), Sportback (Audi A3), Avant (other Audis), Touring (BMW), Estate (everything else), avoid the descriptor altogether (Audi AllRoad, only available in an estate body, but never referred to) or, and this is my favourite, "Shooting Brake" (though you need only 2 doors to get away with this one).

I can't actually think of a single estate/wagon for sale in the EU that is called "xxxxxxx Wagon".


Oh, and no more wood-panelling. That'd help.

 

[Sniffs]

Famine: "wood paneling" is one of the reasons that estates over here are considered "EWWWWWWWWWWWW", good call. they also applied the vinyl sheets of simulated wood grain to first and second gen Caravans and Voyagers. however, the estates pictured, the 70 land yachts that even Americans don't like the sheer size of, are the only car based vehicles before the invention of minivans that could hold more than 5 people total. those long buggers could hold up to 10 people. that's a couple of good looking pre-76 Custom Cruisers, though.

 

[Adamgp]

The Dodge Magnum was classified as a truck, not to help sell them, but for CAFE. PT Cruiser is also classified as a truck. It allowed Dodge to sell more Ram's and Durangos. Another reason I think CAFE regs are a croc.

Changing what wagons are called also won't help.

 

[JCE]

To this day I cannot see how the PT Cruiser is listed as a truck when it can't even be a car correctly.

Americans may never be warm to estate cars but they look to be turning around on the hatchback. There are quite a few of them on then roads now.

 

[analog]

Oh I know that they wouldn't be made if they weren't popular, but I was more wondering as to why the general public prefers sedans over wagons and hatches.

Might it be because Americans in general have a more conservative notion/taste (not meant judgemental ) of what a car should look like as for generations the only "acceptable" form of transportation were big V8 powered saloons.
As the roads in the US are often long straights and the distances travelled are far bigger than in Europe.
In Europe with its twistier road characteristics the small hatchback/ small car in general are common for generations, also because they are easier to park in crowded city areas.
There is an old joke that every muscle car carried a Mini in the trunk if it happened to come across a corner.....
Just to make sure, i like a lot of American cars ( especially before, say, 1973 ) and with the current economic climate the trend for downsizing is probably going to change a lot of preconceptions concerning small cars.
Also you might give the diesel-engine a second look, it's extremely popular in Europe ( for economic reasons ) and it has evolved greatly over the past 20 years, and it has many common characteristics with the petrol V8; low-revving high on torque and in modern form very silent.
All this with less fuel consumption than a petrol in-line 4......

 

[niky]

Part of the reason hatchbacks are unloved in the US is the same reason SUVs are loved. Security.

A hatchback doesn't have a rear end sticking three to four feet aft of the passenger space. Never mind that there's the same amount of sheetmetal behind you as on a sedan of the same platform, it just "doesn't feel safe" to some people.

The wagon gave way to the Minivan and the SUV. People who want wagons are usually family people... a market segment that gave way to "Soccer Moms"... With higher gas prices, wagons might make a comeback... but then again, they might not... the MPV/Minivan based on the same platform as its sedan/hatchback sibling (Odyssey/Mazda5/etcetera) just makes much more sense.


The correct answer to the Focus conundrum:

* Considering that they made a four-door sedan for the first Focus for the US, it was more an issue of the second-generation Focus being too expensive for American markets, which see small cars as cheap cars—the second-generation European Focus was very well-appointed and very expensive by American small-car standards. This turned out badly for Ford, as later refreshes of the US Focus, formerly a class leader, were surpassed by foreign competitors, were panned by the American auto press, and experienced rapidly falling sales. The upcoming next model of Focus will be sold in both the US and Europe as part as Ford's new strategy of consolidating its worldwide product lines.

Also from the same article.

Do note that TvTropes is basically like Wikipedia... only run by geeks, infinitely editable, including counter-arguments in the main page, and more rigorously researched but without the stupid need for citations.

Fascinating site. Best to stay away.

Nope, it's the Focus sedan that's on sale in Europe. Or seemed to be until this year anyway.

Painfully slow-selling over here though. Just to give you an idea, there are 9,200 post-2005 Focus hatches on Autotrader. There are 130 sedans.



Unloved Danny. UNLOVED. BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT CAN'T APPRECIATE INCREASED BOOT PRACTICALITY.

Shame... it's a great car. Handles better than 99% of the cars in its class. Has better refinement, too. Unfortunately, one of those 1% that's better than the Focus Sedan is the Focus Hatch... which is why it's unloved.

EDIT:

Also from tropes:

What happened was that Ford got stuck in a will-we-or-won't-we decision loop for so long that they wound up with no choice but to facelift the old model for '05; the heavier facelift for '08 excluded the hatchbacks (which had been solid niche sellers) and cost more than just federalizing the second-gen car would've.

Funnily enough, I've seen this mindset at work in Ford management (who are more communicative with journalists locally than most) when they were deciding whether or not to import the Fiesta. It's frustrating to the point where you just want to shout at them: "Just do it! Bring in a dozen cars and see if they'll sell, for Chris'sakes!"

 

[Jondot]

I like the Aspire personally (after all, they made the Puma out of it, and that little bugger impresses), but the Fiesta and Festiva that preceded it sure didn't impress.

What, this Puma?

I think you'll find that (like my car) it was based on the Euro mk4 Fiesta, not the Festiva

...I hope, anyway.

Marketing. Instead of "station wagon" or "wagon", have Sportwagon (Alfa Romeo 156), Sportback (Audi A3), Avant (other Audis), Touring (BMW), Estate (everything else), avoid the descriptor altogether (Audi AllRoad, only available in an estate body, but never referred to) or, and this is my favourite, "Shooting Brake" (though you need only 2 doors to get away with this one).

I can't actually think of a single estate/wagon for sale in the EU that is called "xxxxxxx Wagon".

Oh one company was stupid enough to.

And as I recall, they sold approximately 12 of them in Britain. Presumably to people who wanted a Saab with a less prestigious badge.

 

[homeforsummer]

What, this Puma?

I think you'll find that (like my car) it was based on the Euro mk4 Fiesta, not the Festiva

...I hope, anyway.

Yup. The USDM Festiva had absolutely nothing at all in common with the EUDM Fiesta. The first-gen Festiva was a re-badged Mazda 121 (that later became the Kia Pride) and the second-gen (Festiva/Aspire) was actually a Kia.

The Festiva in other words was absolutely dreadful. The Fiesta was one of the best cars in it's class for a great many years. And gave us the Ka and the Puma, which were also the best cars in their class for a great many years and two of the best handling FWDs on the market throughout the time they were on sale. Incidentally, the Mk4/5 Fiesta was then rebadged as a Mazda 121 over here:

 

[Sniffs]

all I know is that the late ninties Aspire was the one the Puma made me think of.

I should point at the wiki article for them. all I know is they keep switching stuff around all the time over here, and they're almost NEVER the same thing that Europe gets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:94-96_Ford_Aspire.jpg
THIS version is the one that had me thinking the Puma was based off of it

 

[Famine]

all I know is that the late ninties Aspire was the one the Puma made me think of.

I should point at the wiki article for them. all I know is they keep switching stuff around all the time over here, and they're almost NEVER the same thing that Europe gets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:94-96_Ford_Aspire.jpg
THIS version is the one that had me thinking the Puma was based off of it

Oooh, nasty. Looks like a Mk2 Astra clone (like the Daewoo Nexia).

The Ford Puma was a Ford Europe product and had nothing to do with the Ford US Ford Aspire or Festiva - which were both rebadged Kias. It was based on the Ford Europe Ford Fiesta Mk3/4/5 (the Mk4 of which also saw service rebadged as a Mazda 121), as was the Ford Europe Ford Ka/StreetKa/SportKa. Pretty much as homeforsummer says.

 

[Jim Prower]

Funnily enough, the majority of Festivas, Aspires, and Metros I've seen have the following things in common:

1: a misfire
2: a rusted out exhaust, so they're rather loud
3: Rust holes everywhere.

Not exactly great Hatchback advertisement. Oddly enough, the majority of hatches I see are Mazda 3s, Mini Coopers...and Dodge Calibers.

(One of these things is not like the otherrrssss...)

 

[Grand Prix]

I've always been curious why the V8 and not the V12 became the sought-after performance engine in American culture. Surely a US President's speech couldn't influence a preference of engine configuration for decades to come? There must be more to it than that.

 

[JCE]

Because the V8 was and is cheap to make and engineer into already existing platforms--plus the cost to upgrade these are rather cheap and since they are fairly detuned from the factory you can squeeze ample amount of power from them for not much money.

 

[Grand Prix]

Because the V8 was and is cheap to make and engineer into already existing platforms--plus the cost to upgrade these are rather cheap and since they are fairly detuned from the factory you can squeeze ample amount of power from them for not much money.

I suppose, but wouldn't the Straight 6 also have been a fairly easy-to-modify engine, with the added bonus of being naturally smooth? A V12 can also be made fairly easily from the Straight 6 design. Albeit with more carburetors to worry about.

 

[JCE]

I suppose, but wouldn't the Straight 6 also have been a fairly easy-to-modify engine, with the added bonus of being naturally smooth? A V12 can also be made fairly easily from the Straight 6 design. Albeit with more carburetors to worry about.

While I love I6's myself as a genetic European, Americans generally don't. An I6 would cost more to make the performance benchmark for the midsize vehicle as it would require R&D that they won't want to spend. And since the big three have a love affair with the V8 I doubt that an inline 5 or 6 cylinder engine will ever get put into a performance car of some sort. And the rumble of the V8 as well rubs them the right way where the wailing of an inline doesn't.

 

[Rykon Zero]

...or, and this is my favourite, "Shooting Brake" (though you need only 2 doors to get away with this one).

Why do I always imagine a car slowing down by shooting grappling hooks into the surrounding scenery when I hear that?

 

[Sniffs]

I think we had some trouble engineering V12's outside of the Aircraft industry we also touched on V16's as well (a 20's Cadillac Madame X Imperial had one), but until people actually started to develop V8's, here, we had Straight Eights. I think I6's and the straight eights were eventually viewed as "old fashioned". Plus, ever seen a yank tank with our straight eights under the hood? they're five miles long!

Oh we tend to slap I5's and I6's under truck or SUV hoods, but not into cars.

some more entries into the "hatches suck" category over here
"Subaru Justy"
"Pontiac LeMans" (yet another rebadged Korean)
this is why I cvlaim that every time we get a foreign car, the manuafacturer provides us with the crap that'd normally go to their former colonies. they always seem to be pieces of crap the minute they get into American hands. Remember, we don't really fix, we just buy new...untill lately, of course.

 

[homeforsummer]

"Subaru Justy"

Yeah, we got that one too. The old boxy one was a standalone model I think, and they replaced it with one that had the same body as the Suzuki Swift (/Geo Metro/Pontiac Firefly). They go for peanuts over here now. I expect if you lived up a muddy or snowy track and hated the idea of an actual offroader then it'd be perfect, but then that's a pretty narrow target market... I've just done a quick search of autotrader and ebay, and there are only four for sale across the country at the moment.

 

[Famine]

this is why I cvlaim that every time we get a foreign car, the manuafacturer provides us with the crap that'd normally go to their former colonies.

Well... you got the Saturn Aura and Astra, which were the European market Vauxhall/Opel Vectra and Astra. Not great cars, but the same crap we got stuck with. I believe the Vectra-replacement Insignia is going to America with a Buick Regal hat on too.

Plus we gave you the Ford Contour (EU: Mondeo), Focus Mk1 and you're getting the sector-redefining EU Ford Fiesta shortly.

 

[KAMKA-Z]

I've always been curious why the V8 and not the V12 became the sought-after performance engine in American culture. Surely a US President's speech couldn't influence a preference of engine configuration for decades to come? There must be more to it than that.

Packaging! it's all about keeping the power in a smaller, lighter package and fitting it under the hood. That's why we get so many clunky sounding V6s instead of smooth, sweet sounding I6s. A V12 starts to get long and heavy (as well as complex) for the vehicles they're being put in. The cars we do see with I6s, V12s and flat6s, etc. are usually designed around an uncompromised powerplant. (BMW, Mercedes and exotics)

 

[homeforsummer]

That's why we get so many clunky sounding V6s instead of smooth, sweet sounding I6s.

If you get clunky sounding ones it's because they've been designed by committee. Proper V6s sound amazing.

But I agree with your general point. V12s are physically much larger than V8s, and if you tried to make smaller ones you'd then be sacrificing most of the benefits that a good V12 usually offers.

Look at any V12 car produced today and I guarantee that they'll have a very long bonnet line compared to most other cars. Yet a V8 can fit in the relatively short bonnet of something like a 3-Series, i.e. the current M3.

 

[daan]

Look at any V12 car produced today and I guarantee that they'll have a very long bonnet line compared to most other cars. Yet a V8 can fit in the relatively short bonnet of something like a 3-Series, i.e. the current M3.

Surely the M3's V8 is shorter than the inline 6 in your average BMW?

The 330's 6 cylinder won't be much different in length from a V12 as they're both 6 cylinders long...

 

[Philly]

Packaging! it's all about keeping the power in a smaller, lighter package and fitting it under the hood. That's why we get so many clunky sounding V6s instead of smooth, sweet sounding I6s. A V12 starts to get long and heavy (as well as complex) for the vehicles they're being put in. The cars we do see with I6s, V12s and flat6s, etc. are usually designed around an uncompromised powerplant. (BMW, Mercedes and exotics)

Also, our love affair with the V8 in America probably comes from the heavy sedans made after WWII that all had V8s in them. 20 years of V8s almost exclusively will make them pretty popular.

 

[Jim Prower]

Aye, and it wasn't like we didn't HAVE good Inline Sixes (Pontiac OHC-6, anyone? Twin-H-Power Hudson?) butthe vast majority were economy-tuned engines for...ehrm..."poor" people.

 

[buickgnx88]

Jeep used a good inline 6 (along with AMC) for a large portion of their history, the 199/232/242/258 (the latter-most is what is in my Jeep).

 

[YSSMAN]

Both GM and Mopar had stellar six-pot programs despite the comparatively overwhelming performance of the then-new Ford Flathead V8. What GM did with the small-block, however, is just a basic case of "see what works, do that, and then make it better - Repeat." That's why they've kept essentially the same basic design since 1955, and don't really show any sign of tossing it out. They were cheap, easy to work on, powerful, and fit in damn near everything. Even today, we manage to find ways to stick V8s where they arguably don't belong. Take a look at the LS4 for the W-Body cars. A shame they killed that little guy so quickly after the W-Body was axed.

Americans love their big V8s because, well, that's about as American as it gets. I can't think of a more American powertrain, personally. Look at the cars that define us, and they're all powered by V8s. It just works out that way.

 

[homeforsummer]

Surely the M3's V8 is shorter than the inline 6 in your average BMW?

The 330's 6 cylinder won't be much different in length from a V12 as they're both 6 cylinders long...

Good point, but I'm presuming a V12 will also require a hell of a lot more ancillaries than your average straight 6. And it's wider too, of course. It's all very well fitting an engine lengthways, but you have to be able to fit it's width in too. Often you can do one but not the other.

 

[Sniffs]

HFS: it didn't help that they left a 3 banger in the Justy. also, American V6's wouldn't sound proper to Europeans because we have an emphasis on Bore Size

Famine: we had astra and vectra for only a couple years before GM pulled the plug on Saturn (the car guys were DROOLING at the little buggers). I wouldn't be surprised at a Vectra using a Buick badge (the label only survives because the Chinese adore the dang things). remember, the Mondys were a flop over here. too close quarters for American Personal Space tastes, I hear.

Philly's got a point. the immediate post war cars, here, were nearly SOLID V8's. i think the only exception was Jeep brand.

they stuck an LS engine in a W body? heh. never drove a W, have you? W's were almost too much for the 3100's that usually went in