Analysis and demonstration of the penalty system's flaw

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by GT_Alex74, Jun 13, 2019.

  1. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    A while ago, Kenni, Jomas and me have figured out the collision penalties could be exploited while fooling around in a lobby. I remembered the bump drafting giving SR downs to the car in front and some observations I've read here and there in the past and came up with a theory. We did extensive testing and research in private lobbies on several tracks, and decided to sum up our findings in a video (please excuse the baguette accent). I'm releasing it publicly now because we found out one person had figured out the exploit and started using it in daily races. This is not something we made to promote cheating, we're calling for all drivers to act responsibly on track and not use those exploits to gain an advantage or retaliate (always check your replays on incidents before blaming people). Note that the following is true in all sport mode races, including FIAs, as recent examples seen on videos and streams prove it.



    To sum up :
    - when the game detects a collision between 2 cars, it will use speed differential after the contact as the criteria to decide who is to blame. The car who is slowed down the most following the contact is considered as the victim. Steering, braking or throttle inputs does not matter.
    - in case of a bump from the rear, the car in front will always be deemed responsible, with the only exception being if it's immediately sent into the back of an even slower car.
    - in case of a side hit or t-bone, it can go either way. In all my attempts at side-swiping Kenni in the video, the energy from the contact was translated mostly sideways, which made his driving wheels sliding, and the speed on his speedometer dropped because of that, making me get the penalty on those ones.
    - the trigger for the penalty to actually happen is the "victim" car going off track (this includes hitting a wall).
    - the amount of the penalty seems to be determined at least partially by the speed gain / loss difference after the contact, with the penalty being capped to 5 seconds.
    - once the game considers you're the victim, you're basically immune to corner cut penalties for a short moment.


    Now let's analyze some recent incidents that popped up this week :



    >>> [FIA race] In this one, the Megane gets a 5 second penalty out of nowhere after the Corvette wipes out the poor NSX. Why this happens : in this situation, the Corvette is sliding accross the grass, and the game sees that as a loss of control, so this car is basically immune to contact penalties. Now the Megane gave a lovetap to the NSX right before it got sent to Narnia : while in most situations the NSX would have taken a SR down from that, the hit from the Corvette happens quickly enough after the bump draft that the game still thinks it's the same incident, and as the NSX has lost all its forward velocity, it has lost much more speed than the Megane did for the game. Since the NSX goes off track, penalty is triggered.

    -------------------------

    Tweet removed due to profanity

    >>> [FIA race] Here's an example of a side contact giving a penalty to the car in front. Atho and Stefounzy have a minor contact, which sends Stefounzy in the grass and brushing the wall, making him lose speed in the process. No ill intentions there, but a very harsh 5 seconds penalty handed out to Atho.

    -------------------------



    >>> [Daily race] Perfect example of the system being actively exploited in sport mode. A school case.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2019
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  2. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens

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    Great analysis!!! I had a suspicion speed difference was a criteria for SR Down, hence draft bumping always punishes the car in front. It does seem reversed in braking zones though as you get SR Down for touching an early braker. In corners it always seems the inside car is right unless the outside car goes off. But I guess since the outside car generally goes faster (at a higher speed) around a corner the speed beneficial theory works as well.

    Here is a previous thread with many examples
    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/the-penalty-analysis-thread.387155/

    And here is me exploiting the system to hunt down a dirty driver

    It's been like that since St. Croix was added last summer.

    What I am curious about is why sometimes penalties are not triggered like here
     
  3. zzz_pt

    zzz_pt Premium

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    @GT_Alex74 Great post, first and foremost.

    I think in the Tidgney / Calster / Indyfood incident, the game saw Tidgney as the car that lost most speed and attributed the blame to the driver that touched him. Since Indyfood was the one that lost the least amount of speed, he was left out of the equation. I don't think the game accounts for more than 2 cars. This is what probably happened in the Megane vs NSX at Interlagos, where the Vette is completely ignored, somehow.

    All in all, penalties are a big mess. Great to see it well presented.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  4. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    No, all our testings showed the car behind consistently getting nothing. Most likely the situations you described either had the bumped car hitting another one immediately, or the game giving a SR down to both cars involved.


    The game never gives contact penalties if no car goes off track. The SR down indicator also does not always show up, even though you still get it in the background (or it might just be a case of "you just don't get an SR up"). In corners for side contacts, it all depends on if one car is sent drifting or into an obstacle : when you start drifting, watch your speedometer; as the driving wheels start to slide laterally, the indicated speed is dropping. It's generally much easier to send the outside car drifting and off track at the same time, but instances of the inside car going sideways and into the grass or a wall can happen, and give a penalty to the outside car. This is pretty hard to replicate though, I tried to do that for the video but failed, as I always sent Kenni drifting instead.


    The car thought to be the victim from the game's perspective didn't go off-track, so no penalty for the F1 nor for you.


    That's how I see it as well. It explains a lot of strange penalties that occured in the past.
     
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  5. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens

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    Nope, had it happen today on Bathurst. I touched an early braker, I got SR Down. No other cars involved, neither of us went off (not really affected by the bump) But I don't know if he got SR Down as well. I've been bumped from behind in braking zones without any others involved and not gotten SR Down.

    Yet perhaps the speed loss theory can explain it. The car that got bumped will brake extra to make the corner, while the car that did the bumping will lift or even apply a bit of gas to regain the lost speed. Which turns the car in front into the 'victim'

    I watch the SR up arrows like a hawk since I always race for the clean bonus. As long as you don't see SR Down and stay inside track limits, not brushing walls, you get the SR up arrow. Contact with other cars does not matter as long as you don't get the SR Down arrow, and off track excursions / wall hits are forgiven if another car hit you first. (or if you hit another car first and go off while the other stays on)

    I don't know, maybe it gets 'confused' with more than 2 cars involved as the 2 cars hit each other first. Or the 'victim' from that contact is indeed immune to punting another car right after.
     
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  6. dabz343

    dabz343

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    This is the type of content that is worthy of my time. Thanks for the sincere effort to improve enjoyment of the broader community by bringing valuable information with intent on making GTS better.
     
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  7. Baliwa

    Baliwa Premium

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    the main problem IS always from their measurement from brakecheck, nothing more nothing less.
    Their system Cant tell difference about early brake, brakecheck, bump draft, and late brake, I always protest about this since they do brakecheck penalty.
    Before Brakecheck get penaltized, it's much more proper but can't safe our ass from brakecheck and it get protest. On this patch it bit loose but they still keep it this alogarithmn. I just hope the guy do next World Tour can give proper feedback about that.


    Yes itsn't, yesterday during daily race I do late brake and hit person front of me then he hit another into the wall. In normal world I must get 3 seconds penalty but no the person in front of me get that penalty. The thing I not sure is, if we do some early brake on racing lines then they hit us sometimes we get that SR orange sometimes not. But thing for sure is if we do late accel after out get corner and they bumped us we will get that SR down.
     
  8. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens

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    DR rank seems to play a role as well in determining the victim. I have been bumped off by lower ranked drivers and they don't get a penalty, or in some cases I even got a penalty for getting bumped off. With multiple cars involved it seems that the one with the highest DR rank is most at risk of receiving a penalty.

    I've gotten SR Downs from bumping cars at corner exit, only 'helping' them get up to speed while I lose mine. I can only explain this by the DR rank difference. I lose speed, they gain speed, we all stay on the road, yet my DR rank is higher than the car in front that messed up the corner exit.

    Lower SR ranks also get away with more yet those kind of mixed SR rank lobbies don't happen that often.
     
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  9. Baliwa

    Baliwa Premium

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    Well I stayed on lower B (15k-20k around 2 months due have a wheel and learned for it) I can't say it's right or not I agree with you more higher DR you're more prone you get the penalty. Not as harsh as last year during Asymmetrical SR on A and B (this just plain out stupid)

    welp, on this thing no matter how I high or I low DR I get the same (SR downs) never sure this about DR rank difference. I always thing they read we shunt them.
     
  10. Novalee

    Novalee

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    I refuse to try and get any advantage other than being the faster driver . The reason i quit playing gts was because of all the drivers abusing the penalty system for gains .

    I still think the iracing system is the fairest one out there . If you have a robust reporting system mixed with the way iracing hands out infractions , i think the shenanigans are kept to as low a level as possible.

    It is never going to be perfect short of stewards watching every race .
    As pointed out if it isn penalized it is allowed in gts so for me as it is now it is not worth the frustration . I have fun with other race games on ps4 and laptop so for me it isnt a bigd not to play gts .

    I do feel bad though for the people that are still playing that want the races to be won or lost on a fair basis .

    It did worry me some that i think i saw posted on here somewhere that the stewards at one the big meets were told not to call so many infractions , i dont think that sets a good example . They should be called when they happen and fairly .

    If you see this kaz , lets make it better buddy .
     
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  11. TetsuKobura

    TetsuKobura Premium

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    The past couple of days I’ve had multiple incidents where some moron crashes himself and runs into me when I try to avoid him, or I get punted into the grass/gravel and still get penalized in both cases.
     
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  12. TT92

    TT92 Premium

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    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/penalty-system-is-still-a-piece-of.378725/

    We have discussed penalties here for a long, long time. I contributed a lot in the early days but soon (nah, took me a while actually) realised that nothing we do or say here will have any effect on what PD does with the penalty system.

    Your post here is excellent and you guys certainly have a great video on demonstrating to people how to cheat the system as it now stands.

    The whole system is flawed and basically just pays drivers for bad driving >:-( As such I WILL NOT compete in the FIA races but just amuse myself in the dailies (weeklies!)

    I have now given up on any notion that PD will ever fix or even care about the penalty system.

    I have solved my problem as I now only race online on my other account and do not care what my DR/SR actually does and if (no, when) I get tangled up with a <insert swear word of choice here> I hunt him down and cause him grief. I may even do it in the next lobby I see him in as well. As I said, my care factor of DR/SR is nonexistent.

    So full marks to you guys for doing this as it will generate a lot of discussion and venting from the members here.
     
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  13. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    Seriously flawed computer-controlled knee jerk reaction fantasy penalty systems do not exist in the real world of motorsports. Therefore, introducing them into something that is trying to simulate real-world racing changes the dynamics of said racing & moves it further & further away from the reality it's supposedly trying to simulate.


    Real world race drivers do not;
    • deliberately punt people to alter their ratings
    • deliberately exploit the system in order to "win" a race
    • decide to refrain from racing altogether to protect their rating
    • decide whether or not to overtake based on a fear of losing their rating

    As someone who has always promoted clean & respectful racing, as well as realism, it pains me no end that fantasy penalty systems like this, that bear little to no resemblance to penalties in the real world, exist in so-called motor racing simulators in the first place (I'm not a fan of iRacing either). If I race online, it'll only be in an online lobby with penalties turned off, & with a strict but fair host who kicks/blocks dirty drivers, thus creating a following of decent drivers.
     
  14. Hasnain282

    Hasnain282

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    In the case of the vette incident, the vette instantly quit after it hit so I'm not sure if that had any bearing on the penalty or not.
     
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  15. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    No, Corvette was still in the list when Megane got the penalty.
     
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  16. Lord of Tranz

    Lord of Tranz

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    Yeah, for a good while I tried to enjoy the game fairly and hoped to make decent progress alongside it. And by no means do I need to win all the time or any nonsense like that, although the chance to now and then is always appreciated.

    But after this long, it is what it is and little is changing on a larger scale to help. Reports clearly do nothing (been pushing my luck there enough to know). But since returning, I've just not given a hoot. Bit of fun here and there is all good.

    I don't interfere with the FIA races though. (Last thing I need is all the wannabe Lewis's screwing the fun like last weekend in Canada. Killing F1!).
     
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  17. DJShadesUK

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    tenor.gif
     
  18. RacingGrandpa

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    Race B this week does for sure cater to this. At the final turn in the esses before coming out on the straight I got bumped two times, one each of the two last laps, and then the turd turned into the wall right after, giving me a 3 second penalty both times...
     
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  19. WaikeCU

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  20. VBR

    VBR Premium

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  21. dabz343

    dabz343

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    Yes the instant karma is not reflective of real life and I certainly agree it has multiple levels of issues. But if GTS decides to relax on penalties, then the question I have is, how do you account for all the dirty drivers that will take even more advantages?

    In real life, you have a strong presence by the stewards (like your lobby), but in GTS Sport Mode--NO. And unfortunately, there are loads of dirty cheaters that exhibit no honor or respect for clean racecraft.

    There is no reprimand to these drivers other than imprecise penalties with collateral damage--this system for stewarding clean racing is sub-par and PD, or someone else, need to innovate here.
     
  22. VBR

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    @dabz343 - A well thought out & logical argument, much appreciated. :tup:

    There is no one-size-fits-all solution. Therefore, the obvious answer would be multiple innovative solutions designed to filter out the undesirables. After 11 years of online racing, particularly in GT, I have a ton of ideas. However, I see no point in writing long lists of improvements anymore. Too many :censored:s on here who just like to mindlessly argue, & PD doesn't care enough to listen to or implement our suggestions. So, I've given up on giving feedback...
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  23. ROCKET JOE

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    I'm all for serious testing, so first of all, thank you guys for the video and your summary. You did a good and valuable job, although there's other threads that cover the matter already.

    I'd like to think a huge majority of our fellow GTPlanet members adhere to racing rules and will not exploit the weaknesses of the penalty system. This automatically leaves us on the victim side of things, more or less, I'd say. So to me and that's the point I'm trying to make, the question is :
    What do we do with our ever increasing knowledge about that flawed penalty system ?
    Will we start moving out of the way as soon as a car is closing up from behind ( I've read many comments suggesting so ) ? Will we mentally prepare to receive the penalty and live with it ? Will we hastily run offtrack when contact occurs ? [ to be continued ]

    As for me I'm not willing to do so since this is surviving the game, not racing, imo.
    Just swallowing stupidity without consequences ? - not my way either.
    So staying away from Sport Mode ? Yep, sadly ... until the day PD comes up with a new revolutionary approach.
    I still have hope.
     
  24. sintura

    sintura

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    I cant open the video??
     
  25. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    @ROCKET JOE Or you can keep racing and use this knowledge to spot people who are actively trying to exploit those issues and report them.

    Speaking of which, in my personal opinion, the report system should be improved, as now you can only report people at the end of a race, with no chance to have a look at your replay or recorded footage. You should be able to file a report even after you left the race lobby - which would then benefit from unlocking more space on the system to save replays and such.

    Having a computer deal with racecraft situations will always leave some loopholes somewhere, especially since the situations can quickly become quite complex and require some intricate programming as well as a lot of processing power to be analyzed in real time - and you have to remember that poor PS4 CPU has to deal with many other complicated things, such as physics. Considering all that, you can't have a penalty system that does everything, so you have a design choice to make. Polyphony's current design choice has been proven unsatisfactory, but the previous one where any contact would give penalties to half the planet was also very criticized.

    To me, they need to focus more on penalizing drivers on the long run rather than handing out immediate penalties. I don't have any clear idea of how you would contribute to that within the race, but paying more attention to reports and allowing people to send video clips with said reports could help a lot.
     
  26. BallPtPenTheif

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    Is the theory here, that by promoting dirty racing that we force PD to actually fix this issue?
     
  27. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    Issues have been pointed out for a long time now, and I'm sure they've noticed the complaints, but sometimes it's difficult to work with rants only. The theory here is that it's much easier to work on something when you have data in a controlled environment gathered into one analyzis. Nobody here is promoting dirty racing : if anything, those would might have known and used these exploits before should be afraid of being reported or face retaliation now (although again I don't encourage the later).

    Also be sure drivers will point this out to Polyphony at the next World Tour event. And the examples people are posting in here are quite valuable material.
     
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  28. Sven Jurgens

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    I pretty much adapted to do all that to 'survive' sport mode.

    First I dropped my ranking to B to get fairer treatment by the penalty system, since as A/S I often got 10 sec penalty when a B/S driver ran into me. That was when you still had the penalty time going up in A/S if it reached over 10 sec total, and a slight tap would already get you 10 sec.

    Then I gave up on qualifying in wait of a better penalty system. Starting last is much safer, no unfair penalties (most of the time) from dive bombs in T1.

    And yep, I move out of the way when a car is closing up from behind since I race for the clean race bonus. I went into full avoidance mode, sometimes practically parking the car to get out of the way of trouble when I set my 97 consecutive clean race record streak. That had my DR slowly dwindle all the way back to 1. I was aiming for 80 then manage another 17 clean races while driving more competitively until it was finally ended by a bump from behind which I could not avoid due to traffic in front, SR Down.

    If contact occurs I usually don't try my best anymore to stay on the road, let the car roll off to avoid a penalty is usually better than getting slowed down by the penalty zone and get stuck behind trouble again.

    Sometimes I simply go into the pit, let my car sit out the rest of the race while doing something more productive. Some races are not worth to be raced. I never used to quit races before the penalty zones, instead simply took the unfair penalties to the finish line, most of the time not even bothering to scrub them at the line. I know where I finished. Now with the zones you get treated unfairly twice and get put back behind the trouble makers.

    The penalty zones did make it slightly safer on the track by concentrating the danger of people serving penalties in a live race to certain sections of the track. Those sections are now the most dangerous with cars at different speeds unghosting at any moment. They are far from fair either, some zones you hardly lose time, others can turn a 0.5 sec penalty into over 2 sec lost.

    Which is another gripe, if you do the right thing by avoiding a car you can often end up with a 'shortcut' or wall penalty. The system is stacked against clean driving, yet somehow I enjoy the challenge and keep coming back. Clean streak at 5 atm on Bathurst :)


    Reports do nothing. But I still report people as it might add to some statistic somebody might eventually look at. To check if you have the right person, simply save the live footage right after the race and ffwd through it until the unfair penalty appears on screen. Easy to do.

    The easy fix is to fix the SR rating system. Forget about penalties, instead take a completely unbiased measure like (nr of contacts + out of track limit excursions + spins + wall touches) / time driven and use that to calculate the SR ranking for everyone. People that are prone to many crashes and unsafe driving will be ranked with similar style drivers. People that are careful, stay on track and avoid contact will get to race those that do the same.

    Any fixes to the penalty system are meaningless as long as you can simply restore SR by keeping your nose clean for one or two C races. Besides that, currently you get rewarded with easier races, likely even starting on pole, when a faster driver gets his SR dropped. The current system is win-win for dirty driving, lose-lose for those wanting clean races.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  29. ROCKET JOE

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    I knew that, mate. I've read a lot about your Sport Mode career :lol: !

    That is quite close to some ideas that have been discussed recently in the big PENALTY thread. If you're interested you may wanna start reading at around page 45.
    Let me ask you something, Alex : Do you believe that a dirty driver will have more contact in the long run than a clean one ?
    Others may happily post their opinion too - I'm curious !
     
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  30. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens

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    Yes, I firmly believe that after observing driving behavior in over 7000 races :lol:

    It's not all dirty driving mind you, most of it is simply from people being overconfident and pushing the car too hard. That's the main reason I enjoy racing B/S drivers more than A/S, as the latter group has a far higher percentage of those going for gaps that aren't there an think they have better brakes than anyone else on the track.

    It's not just contact with other drivers, wall scraping, going wide, sliding through corners, cutting corners, it's all part of the same sloppy driving that leads to accidents. If you can't even stay on the track for a lap, how can you expect to make a clean pass or go side by side through corners. Even with the shortcut penalties severely reduced with the introduction of the penalty zones, most races still have 70% red dots at the end in SR.S.

    SR should be based on the ability to first stay on the track, second not make contact with other cars, and third make clean passes either overtaking or getting passed.

    B/S has plenty awesome drivers BTW, just had another incredibly satisfying clean race on Bathurst, side by side, close racing, no trouble. It's mainly the early evening that's bad.
     
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