Are Polyphony Digital victims of their own success?

[SCER]

I could say the exact same for people that are complacent such as yourself. And how is it a threat to say I won't buy their next game on blind faith? It's my right as a consumer to do so. I owe PD absolutely nothing and neither does any single person on this website. It is their duty to earn our purchase.

Okay, let's swap complacent to appreciative for a start. And no, you don't need to announce that you won't be buying a game. You could just not buy it. PD owes you nothing either, so stop acting like they do by telling them what to put in their games, and how to make good games. To be honest I don't think PD would find it worth the hassle to satisfy you with their games.

Since we're making personal preference a fact, T10 does a better job (regarding console games).

I'm afraid you're going to have to enlighten me on T10.

Just like the amount of complacency doesn't dwindle.

Once again, satisfaction/appreciation/a sense of perspective regarding the importance of video games, not complacency.

This. Exactly what i'm thinking. If you see all these features (sound, damage, AI) can be implemented just right from the boys at T10, and compare this with the total inability of PD to do so, even tough their fanbase have been asking for it for years...

It's fine to have things you'd want them to do, but it's important to appreciate them as well. From the perspective of pure self-interest, it could well make them more interested in listening to opinions. Let's face it, if their games were so frustrating and terrible and they were such awful game developers, you wouldn't be here.

 

[Samus]

That is because the majority of Gran Turismo players do not log on the internet and complain about GT5's shortcomings.

The same can be said of basically any game since the internet existed. It doesn't mean they don't have issues though. Look at any series/title that has completely gone down the pan, lost millions of sales. Were those millions on the internet complaining? Of course not, they still didn't buy the next game though.

I'm not saying there is any evidence that will happen to GT any time soon though.

 

[machschnel]

That because people on the internet rarely display empathy towards video game companies. I believe this comes from the fact that people do not stop and think what it would feel like to be criticized for their work on a constant basis.

Criticism comes with the responsibility of being paid to do a job. I (and I'm sure countless others on GTPlanet) experience this daily. It's called reality.

Also, empathy is for your fellow man, not for a bloody (multi million dollar) company.

Expect perfection.

 

[Earth]

Lest we forget the years of work, sacrifice and sleepless nights that Kazunori Yamauichi put into making the original Gran Turismo people. Whenever someone attacks PD for laziness, I always hold my tongue, rather than suggest that they should make their own racing sim like Kaz did.

Doesnt matter how hard they work when theres obviously no direction. Thats why almost everything in GT5 either made no sense or was half finished.

 

[SCER]

Criticism comes with the responsibility of being paid to do a job. I (and I'm sure countless others on GTPlanet) experience this daily. It's called reality.

Also, empathy is for your fellow man, not for a bloody (multi million dollar) company.

Expect perfection.

They're not being paid to do a job. They're being paid by people that appreciate their work, after they've done a job. If they did a bad job, they wouldn't get paid. So in this case the criticism would take the form of not buying their product. They're not responsible for anything except the age rating, if you buy a game and it doesn't live up to your expectations, you take it back, but really you should have researched it better, and worked out what you were buying.

Expect perfection. But if perfection is not achieved, walk away, do not rant and rave and moan about imperfection for days on end. The kind of people that expect perfection I like to think don't then waste their time complaining when they can move on.

 

[Johnnypenso]

What PD suffers from is a lack of serious competition. Forza isn't really competition for them because it's a different console. iRacing isn't competition for them for the same reason. What will fix all the big and little issues everyone has with the game is another game on the Playstation system that competes directly with PD in the sim racing market. Imagine another game on PS3, equal physics, 500 premium cars either real classics or modern day race and street performance cars, glorious, accurate real to life sounds, 30-40 real life race tracks, a comprehensive online racing setup, leaderboards etc.

PD would have no choice but to compete by doing the same thing, only better. If iRacing can get it mostly right with a customer base of 40,000, it should be a piece of cake to get it all right with 10,000,000 and $750,000,000 rolling in with each version of the game. And it is, but they don't have to because we are a captive audience, so they don't. It's really as simple as that.

Until that happens, they will do the minimum possible to develop the series, in other words, just enough to keep us coming back, and no more.

 

[HAL20XX]

Okay, let's swap complacent to appreciative for a start. And no, you don't need to announce that you won't be buying a game. You could just not buy it. PD owes you nothing either, so stop acting like they do by telling them what to put in their games, and how to make good games. To be honest I don't think PD would find it worth the hassle to satisfy you with their games.

PD needs customers more than customers need PD. We have options. They don't. They used to satisfy me with their games, having purchased GT1, 2, 3, 4, 5P, and 5.

I'm afraid you're going to have to enlighten me on T10.

Better physics, tire model, car selection, sound, career mode, menus, a livery editor, better DLC selection. GT does things better than Forza, but I think the pros of Forza outweigh the pros in GT.

It's fine to have things you'd want them to do, but it's important to appreciate them as well. From the perspective of pure self-interest, it could well make them more interested in listening to opinions.

I do appreciate many of the things they do well. Like I said, I've owned most versions of the game and they are largely responsible for my interest in cars. This one I agree with.

Let's face it, if their games were so frustrating and terrible and they were such awful game developers, you wouldn't be here.

It's for this very reason I am here. I found GT5 so frustrating and underwhelming and I know the series is capable of so much more.

 

[SCER]

What PD suffers from is a lack of serious competition. Forza isn't really competition for them because it's a different console. iRacing isn't competition for them for the same reason. What will fix all the big and little issues everyone has with the game is another game on the Playstation system that competes directly with PD in the sim racing market. Imagine another game on PS3, equal physics, 500 premium cars either real classics or modern day race and street performance cars, glorious, accurate real to life sounds, 30-40 real life race tracks, a comprehensive online racing setup, leaderboards etc.

PD would have no choice but to compete by doing the same thing, only better. If iRacing can get it mostly right with a customer base of 40,000, it should be a piece of cake to get it all right with 10,000,000 and $750,000,000 rolling in with each version of the game. And it is, but they don't have to because we are a captive audience, so they don't. It's really as simple as that.

Until that happens, they will do the minimum possible to develop the series, in other words, just enough to keep us coming back, and no more.

You could say that they use a lack of competition as an excuse to be mediocre, but I look at the fact that there is no competition, and nothing like them in console gaming, and appreciate them because of it. If PD stopped making games, what would I play then? I'd probably stop playing console games altogether.

 

[machschnel]

They're not being paid to do a job. They're being paid by people that appreciate their work, after they've done a job. If they did a bad job, they wouldn't get paid. So in this case the criticism would take the form of not buying their product. They're not responsible for anything except the age rating, if you buy a game and it doesn't live up to your expectations, you take it back, but really you should have researched it better, and worked out what you were buying.

Firstly, they are being paid to do a job. Just as a plumber gets paid after he finishes his work (which the customer "appreciates"), so does Polyphony.

Secondly, how does not buying the product = criticism? You'd have to buy the game and play it for hours (especially a GT game) to give a sufficient critique on a game. "Researching" the game before isn't enough.

Expect perfection. But if perfection is not achieved, walk away, do not rant and rave and moan about imperfection for days on end. The kind of people that expect perfection I like to think don't then waste their time complaining when they can move on.

Who told us to expect perfection?

 

[SCER]

PD needs customers more than customers need PD. We have options. They don't. They used to satisfy me with their games, having purchased GT1, 2, 3, 4, 5P, and 5.


Better physics, tire model, car selection, sound, career mode, menus, a livery editor, better DLC selection. GT does things better than Forza, but I think the pros of Forza outweigh the pros in GT.


I do appreciate many of the things they do well. Like I said, I've owned most versions of the game and they are largely responsible for my interest in cars. This one I agree with.


It's for this very reason I am here. I found GT5 so frustrating and underwhelming and I know the series is capable of so much more.

To be fair I don't think that PD are in decline, which forces me to question whether they need to satisfy you, a very vocal and opinionated (no disrespect intended) fan/customer, when there are thousands of thousands of people that buy the game, no questions asked.

But you agree with my main point, which is that PD needs to be appreciated as well as criticised, so I'm happy.

 

[HAL20XX]

...but I look at the fact that there is no competition, and nothing like them in console gaming, and appreciate them because of it. If PD stopped making games, what would I play then? I'd probably stop playing console games altogether.

Forza Motorsport is a direct competitor.

 

[Tenacious D]

That PD is basically deaf/mute when it comes to criticism contributes to the problem.

Making things up doesn't help your cause.

If you see all these features (sound, damage, AI) can be implemented just right from the boys at T10

Stop right there. Damage in Forza 4 is awesome sauce, but the other two things I disagree with vehemently.

I was hoping that the usual "Polyphony can't do anything right anymore" thread wouldn't happen, but it's beginning to tilt in that direction. Guys, lookit. Even the most rose tinted fan such as myself understands that GT5 was a flawed product. And has made a number of criticisms and requests for GT6. Many things in GT5 downright irk me, like the paint chips, XP leveling system and Museum Cards that clutter up the file space and help bog the game down. And then there are all the patches which seem to have made my game senile! I have to quit and reload after three events or the game usually hangs. I think today I'm going to do a big backup and delete, then install the latest edition and see if that fixes a few things. Jeepers...

I think it's safe to say that I don't glorify Polyphony and Kaz without question.

But at the same time, I don't have the rude, mean attitude some of you do, which to say the least is counterproductive when you want changes to be made in a product. And I don't lie about the competition to further my agenda. Jeepers, humans...

By most accounts, Kaz is listening to us and our wants. Memo to the Standard car haters: a large number of us like them and want them in some form or fashion in GT6. You can blame me for it because I've been very vocal in support of them in GT5, tracks too. And Standard tracks in GT6. The car inclusion caught me off guard - I did predict it but didn't expect them, but I very much want them now.

Have you guys read all the reports of those who got a hands-on with an early build of GT6 at the Silverstone Event? How it is being compared to one of the PC sim racer icons, GTR 2, even at this stage? Have you seen the Bilstein Audi R8 video of it and the GT-R running around the Nordshleife??

Some of you act like not a single thing has been revealed about GT6. Why should we take you seriously? Seriously.

And Simon/Samus, you change your name, but then drop the Samus Aran icon? I'm confused...

 

[SCER]

Forza Motorsport is a direct competitor.

On the PS3. I don't know many people that are switching to X-Box for Forza, and the people I know that do play Forza say that it's more arcade-y than Gran Turismo. And also, with the X-Box One looking as bad as it does, I can't see Forza becoming bigger than Gran Turismo.

 

[analog]

Lest we forget the years of work, sacrifice and sleepless nights that Kazunori Yamauichi put into making the original Gran Turismo people. Whenever someone attacks PD for laziness, I always hold my tongue, rather than suggest that they should make their own racing sim like Kaz did.

Let's also not pretend that they're a non-profit organisation and that not all of those who play GT have the capabilities or talent to suddenly start creating their own games even if they wanted to with hard work (and which is a ridiculous argument to even use frankly).
But more importantly (and I'm not talking about the tone nor content of some demands, wishes or suggestions), a game like GT (and therefor also what's often referred to as Kaz's vision) isn't a piece of work to be passively consumed (like all videogames obviously) and steeped in reality by replicating existing or realistic content (unlike a lot of other videogame genres) or at least tries to.

So it therefor automatically lends itself for being compared to reality, and in turn reality has a lot to offer that's not included yet or never will be.
It isn't like one vision that you can easily take or leave, when you watch a movie, listen to music, read a book or look at a painting (passive consumption), you also can either praise or criticize it but you probably won't make suggestions to improve them and if you do it's an hypothetical one whereby you adopt the role of the artist and what he or she should or could have done instead.
Those works of art or entertainment cannot be changed, nor are as frequently (at least not actively and differently) consumed as a videogame (with the exception of a piece of music perhaps) and unlike a lot of videogames offering a unique fantasy world or style which you buy into or not, GT aims to offer reality and that automatically lends itself to different perceptions on whether they've got that right or not (and how they could improve it).

Then there's the content which can always be expanded upon (again, unlike the previous examples or certain videogames which are simply finished) and whereby the personal preferences or frame of reference of 10 million players obviously aren't going to be the same as Kaz's all or even most of the time.
And whereby the content that can be added is all around us to suggest and not necessarily having to be imagined.
So it's an inherent consequence of the type of game they chose to make, and that has nothing to do with how hard or not they work, nor with people necessarily feeling entitled by wanting some of the cars and tracks they love or feeling disappointed when they aren't.
Neither has the inability to create your own videogame got anything to do with with an inability to point out flaws or ways to improve them.

And another thing, if criticism can only be rightfully expressed if you're completely knowledgeable about what the process of creating something fully entails and which would require an ability to do the same yourself, wouldn't the same be logically required for praising it?
Or is the difference that one is positive ignorance whilst the other is negative ignorance?

 

[HAL20XX]

On the PS3. I don't know many people that are switching to X-Box for Forza, and the people I know that do play Forza say that it's more arcade-y than Gran Turismo. And also, with the X-Box One looking as bad as it does, I can't see Forza becoming bigger than Gran Turismo.

Well you said that there are no competitors within console gaming, and the 360 is a console. I recommend you actually give Forza a chance and judge the physics for yourself as they're actually quite good and not "arcade-y". Are your friends comparing it to real life experience or against their opinion that GT physics are accurate?

I don't see it becoming bigger than GT either.

 

[Tenacious D]

Forza Motorsport is a direct competitor.

On the PS3.

Well, he is right about that. You can't have a more direct competition than a company basically taking your whole game concept and making their own version of it.

But in reality, every game is in competition with Gran Turismo, and it with them. There are chads of PC sim racers and fairly good to excellent quality console racers, and the next gen of consoles is essentially here. Kaz has to take into account everything from sandbox racers like Drive Club to whatever Forza is this time to sims coming over to PS4 like Project CARS. Which remains to be seen how much of a sim it is, it's beginning to get some flak itself.

But that's beside the point. Kaz has to make a last gen Gran Turismo relevant to the new crowd of megagraphic and physics articulate racers being made for superpowered systems and PCs. If he doesn't, GT6 will still sell like tacos, but it's going to be overshadowed by some pretty big clouds. From what I've seen and heard, though, it sounds like PD are giving GT6 a huge infusion of Chemical X. And we've only heard a few details so far. I have a feeling that things are going to get pretty exciting around here as details get revealed in the three upcoming game conventions.

 

[SCER]

Let's also not pretend that they're a non-profit organisation and that not all of those who play GT have the capabilities or talent to suddenly start creating their own games even if they wanted to with hard work (and which is a ridiculous argument to even use frankly).
But more importantly (and I'm not talking about the tone nor content of some demands, wishes or suggestions), a game like GT (and therefor also what's often referred to as Kaz's vision) isn't a piece of work to be passively consumed (like all videogames obviously) and steeped in reality by replicating existing or realistic content (unlike a lot of other videogame genres) or at least tries to.

So it therefor automatically lends itself for being compared to reality, and in turn reality has a lot to offer that's not included yet or never will be.
It isn't like one vision that you can easily take or leave, when you watch a movie, listen to music, read a book or look at a painting (passive consumption), you also can either praise or criticize it but you probably won't make suggestions to improve them and if you do it's an hypothetical one whereby you adopt the role of the artist and what he or she should or could have done instead.
Those works of art or entertainment cannot be changed, nor are as frequently (at least not actively and differently) consumed as a videogame (with the exception of a piece of music perhaps) and unlike a lot of videogames offering a unique fantasy world or style which you buy into or not, GT aims to offer reality and that automatically lends itself to different perceptions on whether they've got that right or not (and how they could improve it).

Then there's the content which can always be expanded upon (again, unlike the previous examples or certain videogames which are simply finished) and whereby the personal preferences or frame of reference of 10 million players obviously aren't going to be the same as Kaz's all or even most of the time.
And whereby the content that can be added is all around us to suggest and not necessarily having to be imagined.
So it's an inherent consequence of the type of game they chose to make, and that has nothing to do with how hard or not they work, nor with people necessarily feeling entitled by wanting some of the cars and tracks they love or feeling disappointed when they aren't.
Neither has the inability to create your own videogame got anything to do with with an inability to point out flaws or ways to improve them.

And another thing, if criticism can only be rightfully expressed if you're completely knowledgeable about what the process of creating something fully entails and which would require an ability to do the same yourself, wouldn't the same be logically required for praising it?
Or is the difference that one is positive ignorance whilst the other is negative ignorance?

The points that you make regarding the fact that Gran Turismo is marketed as a simulation and as such criticised according to it's ability to imitate reality are interesting, but I consider it difficult to set benchmarks and expectations without a viable competitor in the genre.

To be honest, regarding video games, and let's not forget that we are regarding a video game, I don't analyse the worthiness of the praise that I give out, I give praise according to the pleasure I receive from the game.

And regarding criticism of the game, I'm really attempting to question the nature of many complaints, in that they're often made as threats and demands of the game developer. I'm also questioning the huge disproportion between criticism and praise.

Well you said that there are no competitors within console gaming, and the 360 is a console. I recommend you actually give Forza a chance and judge the physics for yourself as they're actually quite good and not "arcade-y". Are your friends comparing it to real life experience or against their opinion that GT physics are accurate?

I don't see it becoming bigger than GT either.

I stand corrected on that point. I've played Forza a couple of times, and it could well be because of my affinity for Gran Turismo but I found it comparatively unrealistic and more geared for fun than simulation, in terms of it's graphics as well as physics. A friend of mine, for example, attends track days at local circuits and found the characteristics of his car easier to emulate on Gran Turismo than he did on Forza.

I will say that I do find Forza a very enjoyable game to play, to avoid coming across as prejudiced and biased.

 

[SCER]

Double post, sorry.

 

[HAL20XX]

TA friend of mine, for example, attends track days at local circuits and found the characteristics of his car easier to emulate on Gran Turismo than he did on Forza.

I will say that I do find Forza a very enjoyable game to play, to avoid coming across as prejudiced and biased.

👍

 

[Scaff]

I stand corrected on that point. I've played Forza a couple of times, and it could well be because of my affinity for Gran Turismo but I found it comparatively unrealistic and more geared for fun than simulation, in terms of it's graphics as well as physics. A friend of mine, for example, attends track days at local circuits and found the characteristics of his car easier to emulate on Gran Turismo than he did on Forza.

I will say that I do find Forza a very enjoyable game to play, to avoid coming across as prejudiced and biased.

I've worked in the motor industry for most of my life and spent countless hours on track, funnily enough I find that FM4 does a damn site better job in terms of physics than GT5 (and both still need to do a lot more).

In terms of fundamentals such as tyre and suspension models GT5 falls behind FM4, something that PD quite clearly have now acknowledged. This however is not the thread for that discussion, this is......

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=226995

 

[MeanElf]

...Who told us to expect perfection?

Umm...you did.

 

[FiftyBelowZero]

It is funny really. I really expect to see big things from PD in GT versions.

Forza on the other hand I do not expect big things from. I find that when looking to an upcoming Forza release I just hope they do not screw it up to much.

For Forza 3 I had high hopes only to find that they had changed or completely removed much of what made Forza 2 great.

I expected much from GT5 and much of what I expected was not there but they did add some very cool features even if they were not complete. The only things I think they screwed up was tire wear and removing the restrictions on the GT Mode A-Spec races.

It is funny how if Forza releases a new title that adds a couple of things and updates the graphics people rave about it where GT adds huge things like Weather/ online play and people come out of the wood work to complain.

I agree. We demand things from GT because we think it's not enough. With Forza, we don't demand things prolly because then we think GT is superior, and we don't want Forza to be better.

 

[Tornado]

Umm...you did.

machschnel is Kaz?


: O

 

[SCER]

Who told us to expect perfection?

My entire commentary on the expectation of perfection still stands.

 

[SCER]

I've worked in the motor industry for most of my life and spent countless hours on track, funnily enough I find that FM4 does a damn site better job in terms of physics than GT5 (and both still need to do a lot more).

In terms of fundamentals such as tyre and suspension models GT5 falls behind FM4, something that PD quite clearly have now acknowledged. This however is not the thread for that discussion, this is......

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=226995

For that one it's partly down to opinions I guess, although I'm more than happy to concede that your opinon holds a lot more weight than mine on that.

But as you said, this isn't the thread for that.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

It is funny really. I really expect to see big things from PD in GT versions.

Forza on the other hand I do not expect big things from. I find that when looking to an upcoming Forza release I just hope they do not screw it up to much.

For Forza 3 I had high hopes only to find that they had changed or completely removed much of what made Forza 2 great.

I expected much from GT5 and much of what I expected was not there but they did add some very cool features even if they were not complete. The only things I think they screwed up was tire wear and removing the restrictions on the GT Mode A-Spec races.

It is funny how if Forza releases a new title that adds a couple of things and updates the graphics people rave about it where GT adds huge things like Weather/ online play and people come out of the wood work to complain.

Online in GT is supposed to be huge? That's just playing catch up. And weather has been around for a long time as well. Granted, Forza doesn't have it but I don't see why weather is such a huge plus for GT when it's so limited to a few number of tracks.

 

[MeanElf]

Online in GT is supposed to be huge? That's just playing catch up. And weather has been around for a long time as well. Granted, Forza doesn't have it but I don't see why weather is such a huge plus for GT when it's so limited to a few number of tracks.

But it will be with more tracks with each release. In truth, with the performance difference I expect and I'm sure that PD does too that weather and time will be available for every track.

Time has probably been the factor curbing how many tracks received the treatment so far - just look at which ones got it, all iconic.

 

[Tornado]

You did, machschnel.

And here I thought he was just referencing a pretty well-known gaffe Kaz made in reference to car damage around the same time (and possibly even in the same interview, but I'm not bothering to look) as when he claimed the game could be released at any time in mid-2009 but was being held so it could be made perfect.

 

[SCER]

And here I thought he was just referencing a pretty well-known gaffe Kaz made in reference to car damage around the same time (and possibly even in the same interview, but I'm not bothering to look) as when he claimed the game was complete and could be release at any time in mid-2009.

Well I regret to inform you that machschnel made a pretty horrifying gaffe entirely his own

 

[MeanElf]

...It isn't like one vision that you can easily take or leave, when you watch a movie, listen to music, read a book or look at a painting (passive consumption), you also can either praise or criticize it but you probably won't make suggestions to improve them and if you do it's an hypothetical one whereby you adopt the role of the artist and what he or she should or could have done instead...

I was actually a member of a big peer-review writers' website where your work would be critiqued in turn for your criticism of other's work.

You would not believe the amount of bald attempts to change your style and words to suit their own preferences on that site - all in the name of 'honest criticism'. This just suggests to me that wannabe writers can be as bad as wannabe game developers...