Are you ready for the end of the ICE era?

8,002
United States
Seattle WA
More and more car makers are announcing the end of internal combustion engine development. GM just announced it would be all-electric by 2035. Many countries are announcing they will be ending the sale of new gasoline and diesel powered cars. We'll still have plenty of years to enjoy our old ICE cars, but eventually, I would not be surprised if a significant portion of developed nations eventually ban them from highways completely.

As much as I hate to see the end of this era in human mobility, it needs to be done if we want a planet we and our descendants can live on. I don't think the electric car era that is now in full swing is a bad thing. Tesla has shown a start up can succeed and build some desirable cars. I'm hoping other startups like Nobe, Rivian, Nikola, Fisker, Byton, Faraday, and more can also succeed. I'm actually optimistic for our electric car future.
 

AudiMan2011

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Even with EVs now getting into the mainstream, the big issue of charging infrastructure remains a critical drawback, especially outwith big urban areas.

Unless there is a massive increase in funding for rapid charging and general charging infrastructure, we are still far from ready to go fully electric.
 
2,710
United States
Colorado
GTP_Cyborg
Yeah, I don't feel like EVs being the majority will happen in our lifetime. From what I'm reading, given what it currently takes to manufacture a battery, it doesn't seem like they're actually any greener than ICE cars, so I'm hoping the real science is agreed for or against that, before it's decided either way and we've gone too far to back out. It's so incredibly rare that our species gets it right on such big moves.
 
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Northstar

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I'm ready and fine with it. My work vehicle is a soulless, gutless Ram Promaster so it's not like an electric motor will make any difference when even with petrol my only joy when driving it is turning it off at the end of the day. :lol:

I've also accepted the fact that when I search for my next personal "daily" in 8 years or so I may end up in an electric car.

I do worry about what the aftermarket scene will look like though as it seems like it could go either way.

Yeah, I don't feel like EVs being the majority will happen in our lifetime.

I think we will, but it will be later in life. Currently the average age of vehicles in the U.S. is 12 years, if every manufacturer manages to fully switch by 2040 we could see electric take the lead around the mid-century mark.

it doesn't seem like they're actually any greener than ICE cars

The eco-friendly bit is really just a part of it, electric cars are more suited for modern daily commuting and are easier to maintain. The battery issue is certainly a problem, but with increased funding hopefully they can make batteries that are more friendly to the planet.
 
979
New Zealand
New Zealand
noshog
Personally I am not convinced EV's are the answer.

I would doubt many countries have the infrastructure to handle everyone coming home from work and putting all their cars on charge for night... We are talking about a potentially massive increase in load on all electrical supplies (Cables, Transformers etc etc).

And as mentioned above ... Surely the manufacturing of these cars and batteries is not an ease on our resources either ?
...Then there is the fast charging stations, what I think is overlooked is that if you try and fast charge a battery with incompatible equipment you are going to shorten the life span of your battery very quickly...Then what, we are going to have a massive waste land of useless batteries ?

How much of a old EV or even Hybrid can be recycled ?

Are we fixing one problem only to create even more for future generations ?
 
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2,710
United States
Colorado
GTP_Cyborg
The eco-friendly bit is really just a part of it

Clearly an incredibly small part of it, or people would realize that it's greener to maintain what you've got than to support the continued mass production of new cars. Maintaining an ICE car is cheaper than locking yourself into an eternal lease or loan jumping from one car to the next, so let's be honest: people get new cars for materialistic reasons. Can't fall too far behind the Joneses!
 
38,075
Australia
The Bronx
Wouldn't stored solar energy kind of help with charging over night?

Well, by 2035, I'll be 64. My youngest will be 24. If Australia have the infrastrucure fully sorted by then(there's already a charging station on the foreshore, 200 yards from my place), I'll, hopefully, be on my second EV. ;)
 

CLowndes888

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Governments don't know **** when it comes to these things. Electric cars have their own set of drawbacks which may not necessarily be good for the environment compared to ICE cars. One of the biggest problems with electric cars is disposing of them when the batteries are toast. They have a lot of harmful chemicals which will definitely outrage environmentalists if they get into the ground. The great thing about ICE cars is that you can maintain them and use them for longer, which is probably better for the environment because it creates less waste. Electric cars are easy to operate (which I admit would be a big draw for many consumers), but they won't last as long and that's the problem. Electric and ICE cars need to co-exist or we'll run into more problems in the future. Electric cars are not the answer.
 

Northstar

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I would doubt many countries have the infrastructure to handle everyone coming home from work and putting all their cars on charge for night... We are talking about a potentially massive increase in load on all electrical supplies (Cables, Transformers etc etc).

Walk into an old house (as in 50+ years old) and pay attention to the number of electrical outlets, most have 1 per room. Now do the same in a brand new house, most have several outlets per wall.

The current grid couldn't handle it, but by 2050 we won't have the grid from 2021 as it will grow with demand.

it's greener to maintain what you've got than to support the continued mass production of new cars

I would say that's up for debate. If someone is driving a car that gets 17mpg and eats a quart of oil every other trip to the gas station it's not going to be greener than any newer model of the same type of car.

so let's be honest: people get new cars for materialistic reasons. Can't fall too far behind the Joneses!

You could say that about lots of things though. Or are you also against new gaming consoles, computers, phones, clothing, vacations etc...? Hell, even project cars can easily be considered materialistic.

There are also non-materialistic reasons for purchasing new cars, such as growing families, shrinking families (as in children leaving the nest), business needs, just liking a certain car or a whole host of other valid reasons that have nothing to do with "keeping up with the Joneses".

Maintaining an ICE car is cheaper than locking yourself into an eternal lease or loan jumping from one car to the next

I always find this thought process rather odd. Not so much the idea behind it (it certainly can be cheaper, but not always), but rather why someone that utilizes the second-hand market would criticize those supplying said second-hand market. For instance if everybody just kept their old car instead of buying new 1993 Honda Accords or new 2002 Acura RSX's you would have neither of those cars because nobody bought them new. Those morons that were financially irresponsible in your eyes are the sole reason you have the 2 cars listed in your signature since I'm guessing you didn't buy either one new.
 
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8,747
United States
Marin County
After thinking about it a little bit and searching for the appropriate giphy for far longer, my response is this

giphy.gif


All the good ICE cars, IMO, have already been made, so I don't really care if any more are made. In fact, the fewer that are made, the better chance I have of enjoying the already existing ones without onerous use-regulations like per-mile carbon taxes which are surely coming.
 
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39,032
There will always be a functionally endless amount of enthusiast ICE cars to buy; be it twenty years from now whatever. Look at the dozens and dozens of 60s Camaros alone that are still flooding auction blocks after being found in barns. Look at the waiting list of enthusiast cars that were never sold in the US that people pour money into importing once the 25 comes up. They will be forced into a niche, but I suspect in many countries (the US in particular) they will never be outlawed in our lifetime; and it does no one any harm when the endless parade of CamCords and awful crossovers become electric instead.
 
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Nessy

Premium
4,103
United Kingdom
UK
In answer to the OP, I'll be ready to fully embrace the electric car era when my budget allows me to. I think once the legacy auto makers establish themselves more in the market, and bring cheaper cars to it, we'll see a sudden mass adoption of EV's.
As much as i dislike Elon Musk and the boring and dated exterior design language that Tesla uses, they've played a very important role to where we are now. My only main concern (like other's have mentioned), is the recharging structure.
 

kikie

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Yes, I'm ready. But it will not be the end entirely. Even though the will be ending the sales of ICE powered cars, they will be around many years. It's not that everyone suddenly sells their ICE cars and buy an electric car or a hydrogen car. Most of the car owners will be able to enjoy their ICE cars for many years even if selling ICE will be ended.

People will adjust and start to like non ICE powered cars.
 

MatskiMonk

Inebriated member
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13,531
United Kingdom
Not so Great Britain
As someone that will probably never buy a new car, my interaction with the EV market depends on their being a sufficient stock of affordable, suitable, used cars on the market. I'm 41 now, I reckon I'll be in my 60's before that happens.
 

Nessy

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United Kingdom
UK
Even though the will be ending the sales of ICE powered cars, they will be around many years. It's not that everyone suddenly sells their ICE cars and buy an electric car or a hydrogen car.
I agree, ICE cars will be around for quite some time. Though i think (in the UK, at least), we'll start to see some anti-ICE car penalties, and a push for more EV incentives introduced. Essentially pricing ICE car drivers off the road.
It's not the same, but i remember years back when there was a huge push to get people into diesel cars in the UK. A lot of old generation high emission ICE cars just disappeared off the roads.

As someone that will probably never buy a new car, my interaction with the EV market depends on their being a sufficient stock of affordable, suitable, used cars on the market. I'm 41 now, I reckon I'll be in my 60's before that happens.
It'll probably be the same for me TBH. What i'm hoping for, is that the legacy auto makers embrace the market and start to produce relatively cheap EV's, that get frequent freshly updated face lifts etc. Hopefully that way it could create a healthy second hand market of more easily affordable EV's.
 
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Scaff

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So much misinformation in this thread already (as I suspected would be the case).

OK, I wrote a report on this for my masters, so let's get a few of them out of the way (and add a few more in).

EV's are not as green as ICE cars in reality
A now long-debunked myth, even with current battery technology, EV's across their whole life produce less CO2 than ICE cars. Even if all the electricity used to power them came from coal-fired power-plants they would produce (across whole life) the same level of CO2 as a 50mpg petrol car (have a quick guess how many of those exist in reality). As soon as you look at cleaner sources of electrical generation the gains start to increase massively, and this is without true large-scale production of EV's (which will again drop this rate far more).

Regardless of which emission type you look at, across the whole life EV's are cleaner than any of the alternates (and yes that does include Hydrogen Fuel Cells - I will come to this one later).


EV's are bad because they can't be recycled.
Again not true, now aside from the fact that the number of components that need to be recycled is massively reduced in an EV, particularly they fluids. People forget that ICE vehicles consume a lot of oil across their lives, this oil can only be recycled into one thing (and doing so produces a lot of CO2 and NOx), low-grade diesel and marine fuel, which produces even more CO2 and NOx!

The key target for recyclability is the battery cells, up to which 80% of them can be recycled (and legally in many markets at least 50% has to be). However that's actually further down the line, as most battery's, on reaching the end of life for use in an EV can be used in battery farms, as they require a different level of capacity, recharge rate, etc.

As a result, EV's are at least as recyclable as ICE vehicles, and in many cases, more so.


Charging and all things related
Charging infrastructure? What if I told you that the UK, right now, has more public EV charging outlets than it does fuel station locations in the UK (circa 9,000 vs 20,000), with roughly 500 a month being added to that number. IN the UK they are looking to mandate all new houses having charge points, most car-parks already have a number (and adding them is cheap and easy), workplaces are adding them, and a rapidly growing number of ones being added to lamposts (the quickest and easiest way to increase the number of charge points are on almost every street).


The infrastructure to add these already exists within the majority of countries in the world, electric distribution is the norm and contrary to myth, is up to the task, mainly because capacitors exist! Nor does everyone coming home on an evening and plugging in cause a problem, in fact, it's actually a potential advantage. Let me explain, first you need to understand that EVs have smart charging, you tell them when you need it charged by and it will work out the start, end and charge duration, smoothing out the demand it creates as much as possible (your smartphone also does this - which is why it's now harder to kill smart-phone batteries), then we look at 24-hour electric demand, currently, it has massive peaks in the morning and evening, with the lowest demand at night and the daytime being a mid-point. This is actually a pain for grids, as they have to cycle production up and down over the course of the 24-hour cycle. This is actually rather expensive for them (to the point of bringing stations on and off line), so with smart-charging and more use of the stations overnight, it actually smooths out the demand and makes electricity, overall, cheaper to produce.

Now range anxiety does exist and is a real thing, but this is no different than our ancestors dealt with in the early days of ICE vehicles, and for the vast majority (80%+) of people will rarely be an issue, as they do less than 30 miles a day in total (well below the range of even the lowest range EV). Rapid charging is also getting significantly more rapid, bringing the quickest currently to around 30 minutes, however, 10 and 5 minute charges are not far away at all.

Then you have the option being used by a growing number of companies (mainly in the far east) for HGV EV's, which is the ability to swap out battery-pack entirely. The driver parks up at a station, and they simply swap out the entire powerpack for a freshly charged one. The basis of this idea already exists for electric motorbikes and scooters, take the battery out and charge it in your home or workplace. Oh and some dirt-cheap electric bikes look really quite good in my view...

TC-Max-baton_1024x1024.jpg


..the Super SOCO TC Max, 80 mile range, charge it in your house and its four grand new!


But what about Hydrogen?
Hydrogen may end up being viable, but it's a long way behind pure EV's. Absolutely no network for HFC's exists in any realistic way (13 exist in the UK, most are not well located (being experimental a number are on university campuses) and one will be closing with the loss of Honda Manufacturing UK later this year), and unlike EV charging would need to be built from the ground up. The production of hydrogen is also incredibly environmentally unsound right now, using coal or natural gas to make it, and it's a difficult process that is not particularly energy-efficient. It's also not particularly efficient as a process along the chain of use, you have to use a lot of electricity to produce the hydrogen, you then have to transport it to the fuel stations (via vehicle), put it in the car, which then turns it back into electricity, puts it in a battery pack (yes HFC still need these) and then power the car! Why not just take the electricity and use it to power the car, you know, as a pure EV does.

Now some people champion converting ICE vehicles to run on hydrogen, however that has a few more disadvantages on top of the ones covered above for the production and transportation of hydrogen, the main one being that it's not actually a zero-emissions fuel used in this manner. To get close to zero emissions the ICE engine has to be run incredibly lean, resulting in at least a 50% reduction in power, run it any richer than that and you start to burn the most common element in air at higher and higher rates, resulting in a massive amount of NOx being realised. Opps, that doesn't work, now you can get around this by burning it with pure oxygen, but you now have the issue of needing to store both compressed hydrogen and oxygen in the vehicle, so say goodbye to any storage capacity and hello to a massive risk, oh and buying two fuels rather than one.

Speaking of buying fuel, hydrogen also currently costs (mile for mile) four times the amount petrol does in the UK, and that's with government subsidies included.


Let's use biofuel then!
While you can produce biofuel in a carbon neutral manner, it has the side effect of producing more NOx emissions than diesel does, so lets not.


EV still has a long way to go, but in comparison to the alternatives, they are without a doubt the cleanest and most sustainable option right now and will continue to improve in that regard at a rapid rate. The above is a quick rebuttal to the many myths taledk about them, and I'm quite sure I've missed a few, so will add them back in, as and when I can.
 
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kikie

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I also think that it is going to be possible to convert ICE powered cars into HICE's (Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engines).
 

Scaff

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I also think that it is going to be possible to convert ICE powered cars into HICE's (Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engines).
See my post above, it’s not the silver bullet many think it is.
 

Nessy

Premium
4,103
United Kingdom
UK
Thanks for providing all that info @Scaff 👍
I've been watching a huge amount of EV related content on YT for a while now, and a lot of it debunks the misinformation and myths too.

When i have concerns about the recharging infrastructure, i suppose it comes from my own personal situation. If i had an EV, it wouldn't be a practical option to recharge from my home, as my 2 parking spaces are not directly in front of it, and there's no street lamp nearby. There is a charge point at my partners place of work though, which although isn't ideal it is fairly convenient, (well for her anyway).

[EDIT]
Looking at the price of that bike in Scaff's post, something like that may well be my first venture into EV ownership. That's a amazing and relatively cheap price!
 
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MatskiMonk

Inebriated member
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Not so Great Britain
the UK, right now, has more public EV charging outlets than it does fuel station locations in the UK (circa 9,000 vs 20,000)

This is one I have a tough time with. For clarity, is that equivalent hook-ups for cars, or sites. My town has 4 petrol stations, with a minimum of 6 pumps each, so would that be equivalent to 24 EV charging outlets or 4? Taking the numbers at face value though, there's gotta be some major geographical distribution spikes there. In the main town within a district of 80,000 people there are apparently 5 charging hook-ups at our council offices... I say apparently because I regularly cycle past the location and have never seen them, in the public car park anyway.

This is perhaps the biggest issue overall for me. For EV's not to penalise the 'poorer' end of the market (for want of a better word), they've got to be cheaper, and not limit peoples current level of mobility. One of the most obvious ways to do this, is not to keep loading up the cars with more and more battery cells, and more exotic chemistry... it's to put smaller batteries in them, and make sure that public charging is plentiful. Sure, private home charging will alleviate demand on the number of public locations, but you still need the full geographic coverage or else people who can't privately charge will suffer a compromise they don't have to with ICE. For example 50,000 hook ups at 10,000 locations could be reduced to 20,000 hook ups, but the 10,000 locations should remain for the coverage.
 
127
North Korea
Kijŏng-don
PS1 Memory Card
No.

At least these manufacturer gives us an option to choose, not to shove it down our throats!

I'm in favor of innovating new technologies, etc. but give us an option: Petrols, Diesels, Hybrids, EVs, BioEthenol, BioDiesel, FCEVs, etc.!
 

Liquid

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Despite my love of cars, I've only ever owned one and that was for just eighteen months. I'm bracing myself for ICE to go away but very sad at the lonnnnng list of cars I've never driven, never owned and probably never will. And I'm just talking about realistic purchases well within reach.

If when we move over to electric 100%, I'll just be happy to have the chance to drive something.
 

MikeV27

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Ontario
MikeV27
No, I'm far from ready for the switch. I live in North Eastern Ontario, the infrastructure around here is not even close to being enough for me to go electric. I'm also iffy about owning an electric vehicle when we have really long and cold winters here. I think I'll be sticking with my 4Runner for a long time.

I also work at a gold mine, and we use a lot of battery powered scoops and trucks there. But those haven't left a good impression on me either, which makes me a little more reluctant to get an EV as a daily driver. They are very expensive, unreliable, wasteful and arguably more dangerous than their diesel counterparts. In fact it seems now we are moving away from that and going back to diesel equipment.
 
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Nessy

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United Kingdom
UK
I also work at a gold mine, and we use a lot of battery powered scoops and trucks there. But those haven't left a good impression on me either, which makes me a little more reluctant to get an EV as a daily driver. They are very expensive, unreliable, wasteful and arguably more dangerous than their diesel counterparts. In fact it seems now we are moving away from that and going back to diesel equipment.
I guess there's really nothing that beats first hand experience, but could you elaborate a bit in regards to mining equipment/machinery, being more wasteful and dangerous than their diesel counterparts?
 

Scaff

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Thanks for providing all that info @Scaff 👍
I've been watching a huge amount of EV related content on YT for a while now, and a lot of it debunks the misinformation and myths too.
No problem at all.


When i have concerns about the recharging infrastructure, i suppose it comes from my own personal situation. If i had an EV, it wouldn't be a practical option to recharge from my home, as my 2 parking spaces are not directly in front of it, and there's no street lamp nearby. There is a charge point at my partners place of work though, which although isn't ideal it is fairly convenient, (well for her anyway).
It's why more needs to go into the infrastructure still and more development on the battery side, but both of these are happening at a rapid pace.

[EDIT]
Looking at the price of that bike in Scaff's post, something like that may well be my first venture into EV ownership. That's a amazing and relatively cheap price!
It's a great looking piece of kit, I've been tempted by one just to mess around on, particularly as they are dropping to under £3k fro delivery milage pre-reg ones.

This is one I have a tough time with. For clarity, is that equivalent hook-ups for cars, or sites. My town has 4 petrol stations, with a minimum of 6 pumps each, so would that be equivalent to 24 EV charging outlets or 4? Taking the numbers at face value though, there's gotta be some major geographical distribution spikes there. In the main town within a district of 80,000 people there are apparently 5 charging hook-ups at our council offices... I say apparently because I regularly cycle past the location and have never seen them, in the public car park anyway.
It's actually tricky to get an exact comparison across the two, and you are right that geographic spread is an issue. However, the one thing I can say is that the number of Petrol/Diesel fuel stations has been dropping for a long time now (which has its own issues in more rural locations) and the number of EV charging locations growing.


This is perhaps the biggest issue overall for me. For EV's not to penalise the 'poorer' end of the market (for want of a better word), they've got to be cheaper, and not limit peoples current level of mobility. One of the most obvious ways to do this, is not to keep loading up the cars with more and more battery cells, and more exotic chemistry... it's to put smaller batteries in them, and make sure that public charging is plentiful. Sure, private home charging will alleviate demand on the number of public locations, but you still need the full geographic coverage or else people who can't privately charge will suffer a compromise they don't have to with ICE. For example 50,000 hook ups at 10,000 locations could be reduced to 20,000 hook ups, but the 10,000 locations should remain for the coverage.
It's going to take a little while, but we are already seeing that trend happening, with the entry price dropping significantly over the last few years. What was a £30k entry point is now closer to £25k, and going as low as £20k for the Skoda Citygo EV, and used Leaf's and Zoe's are below £10k now.

It's however the same as any new technology, it's going to take time for it to fully trickle down to all the layers of the used car market.
 

Scaff

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Thanks for providing all that info @Scaff 👍
I've been watching a huge amount of EV related content on YT for a while now, and a lot of it debunks the misinformation and myths too.
No problem at all.


When i have concerns about the recharging infrastructure, i suppose it comes from my own personal situation. If i had an EV, it wouldn't be a practical option to recharge from my home, as my 2 parking spaces are not directly in front of it, and there's no street lamp nearby. There is a charge point at my partners place of work though, which although isn't ideal it is fairly convenient, (well for her anyway).
It's why more needs to go into the infrastructure still and more development on the battery side, but both of these are happening at a rapid pace.

[EDIT]
Looking at the price of that bike in Scaff's post, something like that may well be my first venture into EV ownership. That's a amazing and relatively cheap price!
It's a great looking piece of kit, I've been tempted by one just to mess around on, particularly as they are dropping to under £3k fro delivery milage pre-reg ones.

This is one I have a tough time with. For clarity, is that equivalent hook-ups for cars, or sites. My town has 4 petrol stations, with a minimum of 6 pumps each, so would that be equivalent to 24 EV charging outlets or 4? Taking the numbers at face value though, there's gotta be some major geographical distribution spikes there. In the main town within a district of 80,000 people there are apparently 5 charging hook-ups at our council offices... I say apparently because I regularly cycle past the location and have never seen them, in the public car park anyway.
It's actually tricky to get an exact comparison across the two, and you are right that geographic spread is an issue. However, the one thing I can say is that the number of Petrol/Diesel fuel stations has been dropping for a long time now (which has its own issues in more rural locations) and the number of EV charging locations growing.


This is perhaps the biggest issue overall for me. For EV's not to penalise the 'poorer' end of the market (for want of a better word), they've got to be cheaper, and not limit peoples current level of mobility. One of the most obvious ways to do this, is not to keep loading up the cars with more and more battery cells, and more exotic chemistry... it's to put smaller batteries in them, and make sure that public charging is plentiful. Sure, private home charging will alleviate demand on the number of public locations, but you still need the full geographic coverage or else people who can't privately charge will suffer a compromise they don't have to with ICE. For example 50,000 hook ups at 10,000 locations could be reduced to 20,000 hook ups, but the 10,000 locations should remain for the coverage.
It's going to take a little while, but we are already seeing that trend happening, with the entry price dropping significantly over the last few years. What was a £30k entry point is now closer to £25k, and going as low as £20k for the Skoda Citygo EV, and used Leaf's and Zoe's are below £10k now.

It's however the same as any new technology, it's going to take time for it to fully trickle down to all the layers of the used car market.
 

MikeV27

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MikeV27
I guess there's really nothing that beats first hand experience, but could you elaborate a bit in regards to mining equipment/machinery, being more wasteful and dangerous than their diesel counterparts?

The batteries themselves don't last very long until they need to be refurbished or brought to surface to be disposed of, at least compared to the average diesel powertrain. They also require a lot of infrastructure and personnel to keep running. There are dozens if not hundreds of these batteries laying outside in the graveyard on surface. These batteries around 6x6x4 (ft) and weigh around 5000 lbs if I remember correctly. When you are out of charge, you must swap this battery with 5 or 10 ton crane depending on what the equipment is. That right there is more dangerous than going to a refuel station.

Then there is an issue we had with people getting shocked. I have gotten a little shock or two just from touching the controls after putting a battery in. Other people have also got shocks from trying to charge the battery after they are done with the machine. They also have a tendency to free wheel out of nowhere when your driving down ramp.
 
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2,710
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GTP_Cyborg
Regardless of which emission type you look at, across the whole life EV's are cleaner than any of the alternates

This is including the manufacture of the batteries, with the mining and all that? The articles I've found all boil down to theory; 'one day'/'working toward' using more eco-friendly materials to build the batteries with. One article I recently read even talked about how they've found some of these materials on the ocean floor and will begin digging that up. That hardly sounds like a step in the right direction, so I'm very interested in some reliable information to counter that. That's what I'm concerned about, because I don't question that ultimately - at the consumer level - EVs will be greener.


I would say that's up for debate. If someone is driving a car that gets 17mpg and eats a quart of oil every other trip to the gas station it's not going to be greener than any newer model of the same type of car.

So replace the piston rings and valve guides/seals, rather than throwing the car away just to create an entire car's worth of new parts for every car owner who doesn't feel like maintaining their car?


You could say that about lots of things though. Or are you also against new gaming consoles, computers, phones, clothing, vacations etc...? Hell, even project cars can easily be considered materialistic.

Yes, actually. To an extent. I'm not saying I'm immune to materialism; I seriously doubt anyone in the first world is. But yeah, if the gaming industry would stop being as lazy as the film industry, with their endless sequels and remakes, game developers might be pushed to put out more creative games rather than what more or less amounts to the same thing but with better graphics. I'm still playing PS3 over here, if I game at all. Gaming doesn't hold my interest like it did when I first joined this forum in grade school. I actually take my laptop in for repairs; I don't care to keep up with the latest features, since I only use the basics anyway. I despise smart phones, mainly for turning our society into a bunch of zombies. More to the point, wasn't Apple recently involved in a lawsuit after they were found to have sabotaged their own phones' batteries as a means to get their customers to upgrade to the newer model? I'd hardly consider clothing a fair comparison to what it takes to make a piece of technology, but all the same I don't care much about clothes either. I have a couple weeks' worth of pretty cheap clothes and just do my laundry every weekend; not trying to impress anyone there. Vacations? Earned time off work is materialistic? Tanning on a beach on some island for braggadocious Instagram selfies is not something I strive for. Cars are the one area where I am pretty materialistic; something that costs money turned out to be my biggest passion in life. But at least I have modest tastes there as well.


There are also non-materialistic reasons for purchasing new cars, such as growing families, shrinking families (as in children leaving the nest), business needs, just liking a certain car or a whole host of other valid reasons that have nothing to do with "keeping up with the Joneses".

Liking a certain car, certainly. Changing family? Eh, in some cases. Care to explain why SUVs are only a relatively modern invention and desire for so many people? I have four siblings so I'm very aware of the need for a big vehicle, but I was a part of a big family before SUVs were a thing. We had a three-row station wagon that we drove from California to South Dakota and back pretty much every summer for several years in my early childhood. Why does the modern family suddenly need such a large vehicle when statistics show that American families, on average, are getting smaller? The hard facts just don't back up the size of their popularity. I keep hearing "to see over traffic" as an excuse... yeah, as if you're going to be seeing over traffic when every other car on the road is once again the same size as yours. All you're doing is making it more likely that you're going to kill the person in the smaller car you hit while you were texting on that fancy phone you had to have. And why are crossovers suddenly everywhere, let alone exist at all? I could understand the few people who live in the mountains having need for the extra inch of ground clearance while still wanting a small vehicle, but the vast majority of people will never see anything rougher than a dirt road. I've been just fine in my lowered, two-wheel-drive Hondas, and it snows where I live! Proper tires for the environment and not sucking at driving go a long way.


I always find this thought process [maintenance being cheaper than car payments] rather odd. Not so much the idea behind it (it certainly can be cheaper, but not always), but rather why someone that utilizes the second-hand market would criticize those supplying said second-hand market. For instance if everybody just kept their old car instead of buying new 1993 Honda Accords or new 2002 Acura RSX's you would have neither of those cars because nobody bought them new. Those morons that were financially irresponsible in your eyes are the sole reason you have the 2 cars listed in your signature since I'm guessing you didn't buy either one new.

You seem to be interpreting my comment as if I believe we should get to work on time travel so that we can go back and make sure the Model T is still the only car on the road. I'm saying that we know that cars are a serious problem against the environment now, so the ideal solution should be to restrict production of new cars, regardless of what powers them, going forward, in order to lower our toll on the planet. There are so many perfectly-operable cars that are destroyed for no reason but to fuel the new car industry - Cash for Clunkers was a damn joke. Seems to me that it would be far more environmentally-friendly to just keep your car's wear items in production than to throw away the rest of the car that's perfectly fine - how often are you going to need to replace suspension control arms or seats? Basically never, but most people seem to think we need to make an entire new car anyway because its emissions as you drive down the street are better. Woohoo, way to do your part. Brand new cars have their purpose, I'm not denying that. It's the volume of brand new cars that defies logic. The US is awful about trash and recycling, and yet our efforts are going heavily into creating more and more stuff. To me, considering how many unwanted cars are out there already, common sense dictates that if you really cared, you'd buy used rather than ask for a new car to be pulled out of the earth specially for you.
 
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