Are you ready for the end of the ICE era?

Scaff

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This is including the manufacture of the batteries, with the mining and all that? The articles I've found all boil down to theory; 'one day'/'working toward' using more eco-friendly materials to build the batteries with. One article I recently read even talked about how they've found some of these materials on the ocean floor and will begin digging that up. That hardly sounds like a step in the right direction, so I'm very interested in some reliable information to counter that. That's what I'm concerned about, because I don't question that ultimately - at the consumer level - EVs will be greener.
Yep, even including all of that they are cleaner.

One of the main misdirections the anti-EV lobby use is to put an 'apples and oranges' comparison together and happily include the impact of production being higher in EVs, but forget to include the impact of fuel production and distribution when looking at ICE vehicles. Petrol and Diesel don't magically appear at a service station (as the models they use assume), and the oil deposit to service station impact of Petrol and Diesel production has a massive impact.

In regard to your point about it being better to keep running old cars over new ones, unfortunately, that doesn't stack up, as the longer a car is driven the more fuel use becomes the major factor in terms of environmental impact, and its double hit, as older cars are less efficient and ecologically sound than more modern ones to start with and get worse as the age (because the older they are the less likely they are to be well maintained). While the numbers will vary, one study puts the split (in terms of lifetime emissions) at 75% from driving it, 19% from the production and transportation of the fuel it uses and 6% from its manufacture. Now that report was written back in 2000, a more recent one (from 2014) shows a quite different split, with one VW model having 68% from use, 9% from the supply of fuel (because it's using less), 1% from the recycling of the car at the end of its life and 22% from manufacture.

Now while at first glance that looks worse (22% vs 6%) this once again is not a direct comparison, because the overall CO2 for the latter vehicle is far lower, these factors still make the more modern vehicle more ecologically sound than the earlier one, despite production being a higher percentage. EVs can take this concept even further, lowering the whole life CO2 impact to a half or lower of the 2014 model, and even more below the 2000 model. The end result is that from an environmental point of view, yes getting a new or used EV and driving it into the ground is going to be better than taking any older car and doing the same.
 
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8,744
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Marin County
So much misinformation in this thread already (as I suspected would be the case).

OK, I wrote a report on this for my masters, so let's get a few of them out of the way (and add a few more in).

EV's are not as green as ICE cars in reality
A now long-debunked myth, even with current battery technology, EV's across their whole life produce less CO2 than ICE cars. Even if all the electricity used to power them came from coal-fired power-plants they would produce (across whole life) the same level of CO2 as a 50mpg petrol car (have a quick guess how many of those exist in reality). As soon as you look at cleaner sources of electrical generation the gains start to increase massively, and this is without true large-scale production of EV's (which will again drop this rate far more).

Regardless of which emission type you look at, across the whole life EV's are cleaner than any of the alternates (and yes that does include Hydrogen Fuel Cells - I will come to this one later).


EV's are bad because they can't be recycled.
Again not true, now aside from the fact that the number of components that need to be recycled is massively reduced in an EV, particularly they fluids. People forget that EV's consume a lot of oil across their lives, this oil can only be recycled into one thing (and doing so produces a lot of CO2 and NOx), low-grade diesel and marine fuel, which produces even more CO2 and NOx!

The key target for recyclability is the battery cells, up to which 80% of them can be recycled (and legally in many markets at least 50% has to be). However that's actually further down the line, as most battery's, on reaching the end of life for use in an EV can be used in battery farms, as they require a different level of capacity, recharge rate, etc.

As a result, EV's are at least as recyclable as ICE vehicles, and in many cases, more so.


Charging and all things related
Charging infrastructure? What if I told you that the UK, right now, has more public EV charging outlets than it does fuel station locations in the UK (circa 9,000 vs 20,000), with roughly 500 a month being added to that number. IN the UK they are looking to mandate all new houses having charge points, most car-parks already have a number (and adding them is cheap and easy), workplaces are adding them, and a rapidly growing number of ones being added to lamposts (the quickest and easiest way to increase the number of charge points are on almost every street).


The infrastructure to add these already exists within the majority of countries in the world, electric distribution is the norm and contrary to myth, is up to the task, mainly because capacitors exist! Nor does everyone coming home on an evening and plugging in cause a problem, in fact, it's actually a potential advantage. Let me explain, first you need to understand that EVs have smart charging, you tell them when you need it charged by and it will work out the start, end and charge duration, smoothing out the demand it creates as much as possible (your smartphone also does this - which is why it's now harder to kill smart-phone batteries), then we look at 24-hour electric demand, currently, it has massive peaks in the morning and evening, with the lowest demand at night and the daytime being a mid-point. This is actually a pain for grids, as they have to cycle production up and down over the course of the 24-hour cycle. This is actually rather expensive for them (to the point of bringing stations on and off line), so with smart-charging and more use of the stations overnight, it actually smooths out the demand and makes electricity, overall, cheaper to produce.

Now range anxiety does exist and is a real thing, but this is no different than our ancestors dealt with in the early days of ICE vehicles, and for the vast majority (80%+) of people will rarely be an issue, as they do less than 30 miles a day in total (well below the range of even the lowest range EV). Rapid charging is also getting significantly more rapid, bringing the quickest currently to around 30 minutes, however, 10 and 5 minute charges are not far away at all.

Then you have the option being used by a growing number of companies (mainly in the far east) for HGV EV's, which is the ability to swap out battery-pack entirely. The driver parks up at a station, and they simply swap out the entire powerpack for a freshly charged one. The basis of this idea already exists for electric motorbikes and scooters, take the battery out and charge it in your home or workplace. Oh and some dirt-cheap electric bikes look really quite good in my view...

TC-Max-baton_1024x1024.jpg


..the Super SOCO TC Max, 80 mile range, charge it in your house and its four grand new!


But what about Hydrogen?
Hydrogen may end up being viable, but it's a long way behind pure EV's. Absolutely no network for HFC's exists in any realistic way (13 exist in the UK, most are not well located (being experimental a number are on university campuses) and one will be closing with the loss of Honda Manufacturing UK later this year), and unlike EV charging would need to be built from the ground up. The production of hydrogen is also incredibly environmentally unsound right now, using coal or natural gas to make it, and it's a difficult process that is not particularly energy-efficient. It's also not particularly efficient as a process along the chain of use, you have to use a lot of electricity to produce the hydrogen, you then have to transport it to the fuel stations (via vehicle), put it in the car, which then turns it back into electricity, puts it in a battery pack (yes HFC still need these) and then power the car! Why not just take the electricity and use it to power the car, you know, as a pure EV does.

Now some people champion converting ICE vehicles to run on hydrogen, however that has a few more disadvantages on top of the ones covered above for the production and transportation of hydrogen, the main one being that it's not actually a zero-emissions fuel used in this manner. To get close to zero emissions the ICE engine has to be run incredibly lean, resulting in at least a 50% reduction in power, run it any richer than that and you start to burn the most common element in air at higher and higher rates, resulting in a massive amount of NOx being realised. Opps, that doesn't work, now you can get around this by burning it with pure oxygen, but you now have the issue of needing to store both compressed hydrogen and oxygen in the vehicle, so say goodbye to any storage capacity and hello to a massive risk, oh and buying two fuels rather than one.

Speaking of buying fuel, hydrogen also currently costs (mile for mile) four times the amount petrol does in the UK, and that's with government subsidies included.


Let's use biofuel then!
While you can produce biofuel in a carbon neutral manner, it has the side effect of producing more NOx emissions than diesel does, so lets not.


EV still has a long way to go, but in comparison to the alternatives, they are without a doubt the cleanest and most sustainable option right now and will continue to improve in that regard at a rapid rate. The above is a quick rebuttal to the many myths taledk about them, and I'm quite sure I've missed a few, so will add them back in, as and when I can.

How dare you take away the talking points from people who can't reasonably object to electric cars beyond "I don't like them"!

People forget that EV's consume a lot of oil across their lives, this oil can only be recycled into one thing (and doing so produces a lot of CO2 and NOx), low-grade diesel and marine fuel, which produces even more CO2 and NOx!

I think you missed a word or misplaced a word here. Surely you either meant ICE consume a lot of oil?

I will say that I believe there is one obstacle to EV's at the moment - owning one while renting is a plainly inferior experience to owning one while owning a house - unless you have a truly egalitarian landlord/property manager who provides EV charging (for instance, mine does not and I can't imagine they ever would consider it on their own, they have coin-op washer/dryer instead of in-unit appliances, for example). My worry is that not enough will be done to manage this inherent inequity and it will make lower income people unreasonably burdened (by comparison) if they are not able to purchase ICE cars at some point in the future. Like if you are a daily commuter with no opportunity to charge at home nor at work and your lower end EV doesn't support <10 minute charging, that's a seriously annoying problem. It's not the end of the world...but its objectively a reduction in quality of life, vs fueling up an ICE car. If charging can be done in a similar time frame as a fuel fill-up, then this problem goes away I think.
 
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Nessy

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The batteries themselves don't last very long until they need to be refurbished or brought to surface to be disposed of, at least compared to the average diesel powertrain. They also require a lot of infrastructure and personnel to keep running. There are dozens if not hundreds of these batteries laying outside in the graveyard on surface. These batteries around 6x6x4 (ft) and weigh around 5000 lbs if I remember correctly. When you are out of charge, you must swap this battery with 5 or 10 ton crane depending on what the equipment is. That right there is more dangerous than going to a refuel station.

Then there is an issue we had with people getting shocked. I have gotten a little shock or two just from touching the controls after putting a battery in. Other people have also got shocks from trying to charge the battery after they are done with the machine. They also have a tendency to free wheel out of nowhere when your driving down ramp.

It's quite disappointing to hear the batteries don't last long, as well as the hazardous risks involved changing them once they're beyond their recharging lifecycle. Getting electrocuted by machinery though, sounds like a poorly maintained/unproperly earthed equipment issue. I suppose some of that could boil down to the age of the equipment being used perhaps. Free wheeling down ramps sounds hella scary though.
 

Scaff

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I think you missed a word or misplaced a word here. Surely you either meant ICE consume a lot of oil?

I will say that I believe there is one obstacle to EV's at the moment - owning one while renting is a plainly inferior experience to owning one while owning a house - unless you have a truly egalitarian landlord/property manager who provides EV charging (for instance, mine does not and I can't imagine they ever would consider it on their own, they have coin-op washer/dryer instead of in-unit appliances, for example). My worry is that not enough will be done to manage this inherent inequity and it will make lower income people unreasonably burdened (by comparison) if they are not able to purchase ICE cars at some point in the future. Like if you are a daily commuter with no opportunity to charge at home nor at work and your lower end EV doesn't support <10 minute charging, that's a seriously annoying problem. It's not the end of the world...but its objectively a reduction in quality of life, vs fueling up an ICE car. If charging can be done in a similar time frame as a fuel fill-up, then this problem goes away I think.
Opps, need to fix that.

And yes, your points in regard to charging and socio-economic factors are valid, but as EV's become a norm and faster charging also becomes a norm a lot of that will be resolved. Streetlamp charging stations is one way they have addressed it in some areas.
 

Danoff

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Yep, even including all of that they are cleaner.

One of the main misdirections the anti-EV lobby use is to put an 'apples and oranges' comparison together and happily include the impact of production being higher in EVs, but forget to include the impact of fuel production and distribution when looking at ICE vehicles. Petrol and Diesel don't magically appear at a service station (as the models they use assume), and the oil deposit to service station impact of Petrol and Diesel production has a massive impact.

In regard to your point about it being better to keep running old cars over new ones, unfortunately, that doesn't stack up, as the longer a car is driven the more fuel use becomes the major factor in terms of environmental impact, and its double hit, as older cars are less efficient and ecologically sound than more modern ones to start with and get worse as the age (because the older they are the less likely they are to be well maintained). While the numbers will vary, one study puts the split (in terms of lifetime emissions) at 75% from driving it, 19% from the production and transportation of the fuel it uses and 6% from its manufacture. Now that report was written back in 2000, a more recent one (from 2014) shows a quite different split, with one VW model having 68% from use, 9% from the supply of fuel (because it's using less), 1% from the recycling of the car at the end of its life and 22% from manufacture.

Now while at first glance that looks worse (22% vs 6%) this once again is not a direct comparison, because the overall CO2 for the latter vehicle is far lower, these factors still make the more modern vehicle more ecologically sound than the earlier one, despite production being a higher percentage. EVs can take this concept even further, lowering the whole life CO2 impact to a half or lower of the 2014 model, and even more below the 2000 model. The end result is that from an environmental point of view, yes getting a new or used EV and driving it into the ground is going to be better than taking any older car and doing the same.

That has to depend on the rate at which you're putting miles on your cars doesn't it? I mean if you drive 1000 miles per year, buying a new car is going to be tough to offset with reduction in fuel consumption. And if you drive 1000 miles per year, you're more likely to be holding on to the older car.

I will say that I believe there is one obstacle to EV's at the moment - owning one while renting is a plainly inferior experience to owning one while owning a house - unless you have a truly egalitarian landlord/property manager who provides EV charging (for instance, mine does not and I can't imagine they ever would consider it on their own, they have coin-op washer/dryer instead of in-unit appliances, for example). My worry is that not enough will be done to manage this inherent inequity and it will make lower income people unreasonably burdened (by comparison) if they are not able to purchase ICE cars at some point in the future. Like if you are a daily commuter with no opportunity to charge at home nor at work and your lower end EV doesn't support <10 minute charging, that's a seriously annoying problem. It's not the end of the world...but its objectively a reduction in quality of life, vs fueling up an ICE car. If charging can be done in a similar time frame as a fuel fill-up, then this problem goes away I think.

I can see rental market demand driving installation of chargers in rental properties.
 

Scaff

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That has to depend on the rate at which you're putting miles on your cars doesn't it? I mean if you drive 1000 miles per year, buying a new car is going to be tough to offset with reduction in fuel consumption. And if you drive 1000 miles per year, you're more likely to be holding on to the older car.
You will have outliers, but based on typical drive mileage, new cars are clearly cleaner and better environmentally.
 

Danoff

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You will have outliers, but based on typical drive mileage, new cars are clearly cleaner and better environmentally.

I'm picturing a chart in my head and I imagine you start off taking a hit on your carbon footprint the moment you buy a car, and then clawing that back over time if the new car is more efficient than the old one. But if neither was going to get used very much, the claw back would be slower.
 
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8,744
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That has to depend on the rate at which you're putting miles on your cars doesn't it? I mean if you drive 1000 miles per year, buying a new car is going to be tough to offset with reduction in fuel consumption. And if you drive 1000 miles per year, you're more likely to be holding on to the older car.

The use case you describe is so meager and insignificant that it isn't really part of the broader discussion, IMO. That person should get a bicycle. :lol:
 

Danoff

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The use case you describe is so meager and insignificant that it isn't really part of the broader discussion, IMO. That person should get a bicycle. :lol:

I think that use case might be more prevalent today than it used to. My household gasoline budget has absolutely fallen off a cliff due to COVID, and it isn't coming back any time soon.
 
8,744
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I think that use case might be more prevalent today than it used to. My household gasoline budget has absolutely fallen off a cliff due to COVID, and it isn't coming back any time soon.

Sure, but I'm guessing that means you (or, a more typical person in your situation) aren't considering a new vehicle in the near future, regardless of how it's powered. 1,000 miles a year is easily in the realm of walking, let alone biking. Throw some panniers on your bike to pick up the groceries. E-bikes are the bomb.
 
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Danoff

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Sure, but I'm guessing that means you (or, a more typical person in your situation) aren't considering a new vehicle in the near future, regardless of how it's powered.

Not based on need. But I'm speculating that some people might consider an EV out of a desire to do environmental good. And if they also hear that the benefits of buying an EV, even a new one, show up quickly, they might not stop to consider that they don't drive enough.
 

FPV MIC

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Sure, but I'm guessing that means you (or, a more typical person in your situation) aren't considering a new vehicle in the near future, regardless of how it's powered. 1,000 miles a year is easily in the realm of walking, let alone biking. Throw some panniers on your bike to pick up the groceries. E-bikes are the bomb.
Depends how you do those 1,000 miles. I would only put about that many miles on my car a year but it's nearly always only two to four trips (sometimes one). But I'm also not looking to replace it any time soon.
 
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8,744
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Not based on need. But I'm speculating that some people might consider an EV out of a desire to do environmental good. And if they also hear that the benefits of buying an EV, even a new one, show up quickly, they might not stop to consider that they don't drive enough.

I see what you are saying. I'm skeptical many of the people you are describing really exist. The only people that I know that drive that little, consistently, typically only rent cars from getaround or similar car sharing services. In that case, the benefits of electric vehicle could be large.
 
8,744
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I guess what I mean to say is I have a hard time imagining a person wealthy enough to buy an electric car and is an environmentalist concerned about climate change will go out and buy a new car just to look at it sitting in the driveway. That seems obviously wasteful to pretty much anyone, I would imagine.

Honestly, someone in that position would be better served by selling their car and getting an electric mobility vehicle.

E-Bike Sales To Grow From 3.7 Million To 17 Million Per Year By 2030, Forecast Industry Experts

I really think E-bikes are going to make strong gains in the next decade. It's funny how you can get around quite well with just 300 watts (0.4hp) of power. If your commute is less than 10 miles and doesn't involve mandatory highway usage, it's really hard to argue against an E-bike, especially in good climates. It's probably just as fast, if not faster than a car.
 
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Joey D

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I'm not ready yet for an EV since I still think they are kinks that need to be worked out and the prices need to come down. When I'm ready for a new car in a few years, I'll see what's on the market and go from there. I'd really like to get a Polestar 2 but they're still kind of pricey for what you get as of right now. As manufacturing ramps up though, prices will come down so I'm not all that worried. My target would be an EV that gets about 300 miles of range and doesn't look like it's trying too hard with its design for right around $50k.
 

Danoff

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I guess what I mean to say is I have a hard time imagining a person wealthy enough to buy an electric car and is an environmentalist concerned about climate change will go out and buy a new car just to look at it sitting in the driveway. That seems obviously wasteful to pretty much anyone, I would imagine.

So it's going to be a function of how much you drive right? The more you drive, the shorter the time horizon for a reduction in carbon footprint. The less you drive, the longer the time horizon.

I'm a little unclear on how to calculate the carbon footprint of buying something used. If you buy someone's used EV, do you enable the purchase of a new car and thereby inherit some of the cost of the new car? Or should we assume that the new car purchase is independent of the sale of the used one? I honestly don't know the answer to that question.
 
8,000
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E-Bike Sales To Grow From 3.7 Million To 17 Million Per Year By 2030, Forecast Industry Experts

I really think E-bikes are going to make strong gains in the next decade. It's funny how you can get around quite well with just 300 watts (0.4hp) of power. If your commute is less than 10 miles and doesn't involve mandatory highway usage, it's really hard to argue against an E-bike, especially in good climates. It's probably just as fast, if not faster than a car.
I am going to get a reasonably large tax refund this year, so I'm looking at motorcycles. While an ICE bike is my first choice, I've even looked at electric bikes on Alibaba just to see what's available.
 
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...Personally, I'm more or less ambivalent to the idea of ICE going away. It seems like an inevitability from my point of view.

However, I suspect that the EV revolution won't happen any time soon in developing countries like South Africa. 2035? Make that 2050, then we'll see...

Another thing, my dad is a manager in an auto-part franchise store and he told me in passing that they (him and the company) are quietly worried about the EVs taking over the market. Apparently, a lot of revenue in auto parts shops come from selling engine parts but EVs don't have as many moving parts as ICE cars and that will surely drive down the revenue. Heck, EVs don't need to change their brakes all that often either, thanks to regen braking, too!

Still, only four EVs are on sale in good ol' South Africa (no Teslas here, although they are getting ready to sell their cars pretty soon) so no reason to 'panic' yet, I suppose.
 
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Scaff

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Another thing, my dad is a manager in an auto-part franchise store and he told me in passing that they (him and the company) are quietly worried about the EVs taking over the market. Apparently, a lot of revenue in auto parts shops come from selling engine parts but EVs don't have as many moving parts as ICE cars and that will surely drive down the revenue. Heck, EVs don't need to change their brakes all that often either, thanks to regen braking, too!
It's a big factor within the industry, as not only do they have significantly fewer moving parts, but the ones they do will require less servicing as a result. The bulk of revenue for the retail side of the industry is based around parts sales and servicing (retail sales bring in very little direct profit and mainly rely on OEM bonus programs).
 

homeforsummer

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I fall somewhere within the "I don't mind, but I'm not exactly raring to go" bracket I think.

Those who remember when I first started writing will know I started out in the EV and hybrid sphere so I'm pretty familiar with the tech, but I'm currently not that interested in many of the production models actually available.

At the moment most EVs offered are, to most intents and purposes, just electrified versions of stuff that's already available. By that I don't mean there aren't dedicated platforms, more that EV architecture allows for so much innovation, but what we're instead getting are mostly 2+ ton EV SUVs, which neither interest me, nor are a particularly great solution to reducing the impact vehicles have on the world. An improvement in terms of emissions and energy use of course, but still big, heavy, wasteful and obnoxious, which are all characteristics I think will have to change irrespective of what powers vehicles in the future.

And aside from that, while plenty of EVs are pretty quick, I've driven vanishingly few that are genuinely enjoyable, in the same way you can say, climb into a (pretty slow) MX-5 and have fun. Again that's mostly weight, in that whatever tech you're using and however low down a battery is you still can't hide the fact a car weighs two tons, but it's also pure mechanical interaction. If what you like about cars is the feel of interacting with a machine, rather than just operating it, EVs don't yet deliver. Some character wouldn't hurt either, but maybe that's where EV-converted classics come in.

Price and range are other factors that will personally stop me for the foreseeable future - the EVs I can realistically afford don't go far enough, and the ones that go far enough I can't afford, but I know that will eventually change.

On the plus side? I've driven a few EVs and PHEVs that I genuinely like as cars (even if they don't necessarily entertain me). I've always liked the BMW i3, and while it's been around a while now the Vauxhall Ampera/1st-gen Volt is a nice thing too. Of the newer cars Kia/Hyundai are doing good things, though I've only driven the Ioniq of their products. The Zoe seems pretty sensible, decently priced (out of my range, but decent otherwise) and with a long range. I like idea of the Mazda MX-30, but only as a range-extended car. And the Honda E is great, but that doesn't have nearly enough range.

The ones I actually dig the most are the smaller city-focused vehicles from both the larger manufacturers and startups. The Nobe, Microlino, cars like the Citroen Ami. Smaller, lighter stuff will always be inherently more efficient, and while the idea of a "city car" doesn't make a great deal of sense (there are better ways to get around a city than by car), I like the idea a whole lot more than knocking around a city in some behemoth like a Model X.

IMG_0536.jpg
 
2,510
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Knoxville, Tennessee
I personally am not ready for the end of ICE, for numerous reasons. Sound is one, and simulating it isn't really an option. Also the ability to have light relatively simple, light weight and nimble cars won't really be viable unless batteries get significantly closer to the energy density of gasoline. Then you get manufactures like Tesla trying to make driving more and more boring, which probably will filter down to other brands over time unfortunately. I probably will stick to ICE vehicles as long as it is viable, or at the bare minimum have at least one ICE vehicle for fun. I doubt they will be truly banned in the US within my lifetime anyway.
 

Danoff

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I personally am not ready for the end of ICE, for numerous reasons. Sound is one, and simulating it isn't really an option. Also the ability to have light relatively simple, light weight and nimble cars won't really be viable unless batteries get significantly closer to the energy density of gasoline. Then you get manufactures like Tesla trying to make driving more and more boring, which probably will filter down to other brands over time unfortunately. I probably will stick to ICE vehicles as long as it is viable, or at the bare minimum have at least one ICE vehicle for fun. I doubt they will be truly banned in the US within my lifetime anyway.

Even though I would tend to agree with you for most of these comments, I'm completely ready for the end of the ICE. I think we've made some great ICE cars, and they're still out there. The number of new ICEs made that fit your criteria is pretty small anyway. I'm not against owning an EV personally either (even a heavy one), but I'll still have ICEs.

Actually, given that I don't have any plans to sell several of my ICEs ever, and I'm in the market for another, I'd guess that I'm going to have at least 3 ICE cars basically forever.
 
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2,510
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Knoxville, Tennessee
Even though I would tend to agree with you for most of these comments, I'm completely ready for the end of the ICE. I think we've made some great ICE cars, and they're still out there. The number of new ICEs made that fit your criteria is pretty small anyway. I'm not against owning an EV personally either (even a heavy one), but I'll still have ICEs.

Actually, given that I don't have any plans to sell several of my ICEs ever, and I'm in the market for another, I'd guess that I'm going to have at least 3 ICE cars basically forever.
Yeah, I am pretty picky with cars :lol:
Granted, there are some big cars I would like to own, but they tend to be of the large, angry V8 variety. The only current EV I would consider, money be damned is a Taycan Turbo S, as that is well, a Porsche, and being a Porsche, has excellent handling dynamics considering its heft. Any 2nd car for me needs to be at least competent in the twisties, and generally drive and feel good and properly sporty.
 
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I was just thinking about my feelings when I saw the thread, it's a bit like some people have already mentioned.

I understand why we have to get rid of ICE, I'm content with the fact it's going to happen, but I'm still going to miss the heck out of a good petrol engine. I drive a 1.0 ecoboost engine and it's easily one of the best ever made in my book.

My biggest concern is the infrastructure in the UK. We're making improvements every day but we're going to need a heck of a lot more if this is going to work properly.

Edit: mind you diesel can get in the bin.
 
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kikie

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Porsche will produce its own synthetic fuel by 2022.
Porsche has teamed up with Siemens Energy to produce 130,000 litres of climate-neutral eFuel by 2022. Called the Haru Oni project and based in southern Chile due to its windy climate, the new venture aims to step production to 55 million litres of eFuel a year by 2024, and then to 550 million litres by 2026.


‘Electromobility is a top priority at Porsche. eFuels for cars are a worthwhile complement to that – if they’re produced in parts of the world where a surplus of sustainable energy is available,’ said Porsche CEO Oliver Blume. ‘They are an additional element on the road to decarbonization. Their advantages lie in their ease of application: eFuels can be used in combustion engines and plug-in hybrids, and can make use of the existing network of filling stations.’
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/tech/what-is-synthetic-fuel-efuel/


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/02/por...n-in-e-fuels-for-traditional-sports-cars.html