Audi Sport Le Mans Dynasty

[Ardius]

Strictly speaking by definition, he isn't wrong using the word "champion".
cham·pi·on/ˈCHampēən/
Noun:
A person who has defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition, esp. in sports.

Its just in this context its rather confusing and hence inaccurate. But its all picky stuff, none of us are really confused by it right?

 

[F1 fan]

Irritated would be my word of choice. Having spent a good deal of time in Canada, it was irritating constantly seeing adverts which were factually incorrect.

 

[Ardius]

As long as the meaning or the idea is communicated correctly and understood, who really cares if a word gets changed in spelling, definition or meaning? Language has forever changed for this reason. I believe here we have a case of that - everyone knew what he meant so who cares? I regret mentioning it .

 

[Snaeper]

For sure Le Mans has always been the biggest race, but one thing is that because the original* World Sportscar Championship died 20 years ago, much of the historical continuation was cut off. All series after that have had no official connection to it, so it is hard to hear about the past winners or even of the existence of the championship without going to Wikipedia. Btw, 787B is a bad example because it really never won anything else.

* Original, since it has now reincarnated...

This only reinforces my point. The 787B is a perfect example because it didn't win anything else. Yet the car is still considered legendary because of it's victory at Le Mans. The volatile nature of the feeder series into Le Mans continues to reinforce the point. Le Mans will seemingly always exist regardless of how they determine what cars participate there. To me, this makes a victory at Le Mans a race and championship in and of itself. It's not a part of any series, rather a part of multiple series'.

We can go over this all night, but the hard truth is that winning any race does not make you a champion.

I agree, but the 24 hours of Le Mans is not just any race. If you think it's similar to other races then you're as foolish as you are stubborn. Like I said earlier, Le Mans is an invitational event only. It collects the best cars from multiple le-mans sanctioned series from around the world and pits them against each other. Even with the introduction of the WEC this will remain the case for the race as teams that participate in the LMS, ALMS and Asian LMS series' will still be invited to participate. Few, if any, other races do this thus is makes the simple comparison to other notable racing events difficult.

Especially when the term is wrong.

It isn't wrong, though. Is it the first term you should use? No. But Le mans has earned the title to call their winners champions of Le Mans in my book.

 

[Motominded]

Irritated would be my word of choice. Having spent a good deal of time in Canada, it was irritating constantly seeing adverts which were factually incorrect.

Sebring 12 Hour website.

 

[F1 fan]

Snip

Funny you call me foolish and stubborn, yet you stick to your guns in the same manner. Pot and kettle.

Sebring 12 Hour website.

Your point being? Was that poster made by the ACO or was it made by the organizers at Sebring? The whole arguement is based on the fact that crowning the winner of an individual race a champion is an American idea.

Whoever wins the WEC will be the champion, regardless how they perform at Le Mans.

 

[Snaeper]

Funny you call me foolish and stubborn, yet you stick to your guns in the same manner. Pot and kettle.

I agree and I apologize for coming off strong. Let me just try to help you understand how I see this, and how I think you're seeing this. Just so we're clear. I'll make it a bullet point to help me avoid pointed rhetoric and meaningless drivel (Because I have the tendency to be long-winded and boring).

1. I agree that calling someone a champion just for winning any race is not so much excessive as it is more a mislabel. In the world of racing, a "champion" is a term reserved for those winning a successive string of races.
2. I do, however, believe that the word is interchangeable and if someone wants to call the race winner a champion, then by all means go for it. That doesn't mean any of us have to.
3. Races like Le Mans, though, are among the few group of events that I feel warrant the use of the term if someone wishes to use it. It's one thing if the promoters want to tout last years race winner, but it's another thing if a fan wants to call the race winner a champion. This is an instance where I think calling someone a champion is a proper fit. There's no right or wrong about it.
4. Le Mans is not a normal race. I feel like you tried to label it as any other event and I just want to say that it really isn't. Name another race that's started not by green lights or a green flag... but by the french tri-color? It also has rules that are unique to the event itself.
5. Races like Le Mans, the Indy 500 and Daytona 24 hours are unique. They have out-lasted some racing series that have participated there. They've seen drastic rule-changes and promotional body shifts. They're bigger than the cars and drivers that race there and thus a victory there is more deserved than at an average race. Does that mean they can be called champions? To me, yes. Does that mean they have to be called champions? No.
6. The biggest reason I've continued this is because I feel like you're trying to assign a "right" and "wrong" when there isn't. If there was, then it wouldn't be an issue with any of us because we're all racing fans here and would respect a rule like that. I continue to argue with you because I want you to understand that it's just your opinion. Not a fact like you make it sound. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm sounding awfully factual myself...

I hope this just helps straighten things up.

 

[hawkeye122]

Canadian GP Champion is stretching it a bit far...

But Le Mans 24 hour Champion? Yes.
Dakar Champion? Yes.
Indy 500 Champion? Yes.
Tour De France Champion? Yes.

 

[tribolik]

Race of Champions 2011: Kristensen beaten by Ogier

What Championships have this two won recently? but they are champions none the less? if not what are they doing in the Race of Champions?

But in this case I think its even more obvious since the all series revolves around Le Mans name... were exactly in the USA is the Le Mans circuit located? but never the less the campionship is called ALMS. So the most important and original race of the championship is the 24h of Le Mans race.

I dont see what all the fuzz is about... Even if it isnt the correct term we all get the point...

and it might not be all that incorrect.... Did you know>>>> http://didyouknow.org/lists/lemans-champions/

But Audi still has a long way to go if they wont to beat Porsche history of champion cars at Le Mans...

 

[Prince.M5]

Guys, come on. I made some research and the 24 Hours of Le Mans is not part of European Le Mans Series and not attached in any other championship thus I think it's fair calling Audi a 24 Hours of Le Mans Champion. However, calling them a winner is even more less of an issue because even Wikipedia listed them as 24 Hours of Le Mans winner and not champion.

Let's put this aside shall we?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Guys, come on. I made some research and the 24 Hours of Le Mans is not part of European Le Mans Series and not attached in any other championship thus I think it's fair calling Audi a 24 Hours of Le Mans Champion. However, calling them a winner is even more less of an issue because even Wikipedia listed them as 24 Hours of Le Mans winner and not champion.

The 24 Hours of Le Mans is a round of the World Endurance Championship. The word usage shouldn't be a problem. Words are just that - words, get over it.


On topic, I think the Audi R8 is truly one of the most beautiful LMPs around. I think one of most memorable races I've watched is the 2005 24 Hours of Le Mans where the Champion Audi's battled it out with Pescarolo right 'til the end. I'm also a bit of a fan of the R10 too, I have a 1:18th scale model of the 2007 Le Mans winner sitting here on my desk. Shame I can't quite feel the same about the R15 or R18, neither very pretty cars but they both still very fast.

 

[Prince.M5]

The 24 Hours of Le Mans is a round of the World Endurance Championship. The word usage shouldn't be a problem. Words are just that - words, get over it.

Wait, I think I'm getting a bit confused here. The 24 Hours of Le Mans was not a part of the Le Mans Series, instead a part of Intercontinental Le Mans Cup which is now renamed to the World Endurance Championship. So it is in fact part of the WEC Championship then... Now I know where I did wrong!

Pardon for my mistake. But again, champion or winner it's up to anyone of you. For me, I'll say winner instead of champion because it was already a part of ILMC and now WEC. A winner of 24 Hours of Le Mans, a champion of World Endurance Championship.

Let's get over this shall we?

Talking about scale model, I have a 1:64 Audi R10 on my desk... My opinion, the R8 and R10 are among the most beautiful cars Audi have made.

 

[Snaeper]

Wait, I think I'm getting a bit confused here. The 24 Hours of Le Mans was not a part of the Le Mans Series, instead a part of Intercontinental Le Mans Cup which is now renamed to the World Endurance Championship. So it is in fact part of the WEC Championship then... Now I know where I did wrong!

Pardon for my mistake. But again, champion or winner it's up to anyone of you. For me, I'll say winner instead of champion because it was already a part of ILMC and now WEC. A winner of 24 Hours of Le Mans, a champion of World Endurance Championship.

And what if a car that doesn't participate in the WEC enters and wins? ALMS and LMS series cars all get invited to participate alongside the WEC cars. Two years ago (before the ILMC) that was the only way you could participate. You can also enter Le Mans by winning Petite Le Mans, the Michelin Energy Endurance Challenge in both LMS and ALMS as well as winning the Formula Le Mans Challenge. Let's also not forget about the Delta Wing.

Anyways, I'm glad OP included the Bentley as in the nomenclature of Audi Sport race cars, it's supposedly the mythical R9.

In case anyone was wondering:


Audi R18 - Le Mans Prototype
Audi R17 - A5 DTM Car 2012
Audi R16 - R8 LMS GT3 Racecar
Audi R15 - Le Mans Prototypes, including the R15+
Audi R14 - B8/A4 DTM Car
Audi R13 - 2007+ B7/A4 DTM Car
Audi R12 - 2005-2006 B7/A4 DTM Car
Audi R11 - B6/A4 DTM Car
Audi R10 - Le Mans Prototype
Audi R9 - Bentley Speed 8?
Audi R8 - Series of Le Mans Prototypes, including the R8R and R8C

 

[Prince.M5]

And what if a car that doesn't participate in the WEC enters and wins?

I think it's still considered as a winner.

Let's take the WRC for example. Rally of Monaco is regarded as special and is part of the WRC. There's this privateer (which is not a regular WRC driver) who only wanted to race only in the Monaco Rally and he wins it. Are you going to call him a Rally of Monaco champion or a Rally of Monaco winner? The same goes to the WEC and Le Mans 24 situation...

I think I'm having a De Ja Vu...

 

[Motominded]

And what if a car that doesn't participate in the WEC enters and wins? ALMS and LMS series cars all get invited to participate alongside the WEC cars. Two years ago (before the ILMC) that was the only way you could participate. You can also enter Le Mans by winning Petite Le Mans, the Michelin Energy Endurance Challenge in both LMS and ALMS as well as winning the Formula Le Mans Challenge. Let's also not forget about the Delta Wing.

Anyways, I'm glad OP included the Bentley as in the nomenclature of Audi Sport race cars, it's supposedly the mythical R9.

In case anyone was wondering:


Audi R18 - Le Mans Prototype
Audi R17 - A5 DTM Car 2012
Audi R16 - R8 LMS GT3 Racecar
Audi R15 - Le Mans Prototypes, including the R15+
Audi R14 - B8/A4 DTM Car
Audi R13 - 2007+ B7/A4 DTM Car
Audi R12 - 2005-2006 B7/A4 DTM Car
Audi R11 - B6/A4 DTM Car
Audi R10 - Le Mans Prototype
Audi R9 - Bentley Speed 8?
Audi R8 - Series of Le Mans Prototypes, including the R8R and R8C

 

[Stavelot]

I knew the R8C was an R9.

 

[Hun200kmh]

That's interesting, I didn't know the "R" cars shared the numbering regardless of racing discipline. In that case, I may proudly say that I witnessed the first "race" of the Audi R1

(Algarve Rally, 1980. Unclassified, departed 15 minutes before the competitors, Hannu Mikkola in the numebr "0" car)​

 

[Snaeper]

I think it's still considered as a winner.

Let's take the WRC for example. Rally of Monaco is regarded as special and is part of the WRC. There's this privateer (which is not a regular WRC driver) who only wanted to race only in the Monaco Rally and he wins it. Are you going to call him a Rally of Monaco champion or a Rally of Monaco winner? The same goes to the WEC and Le Mans 24 situation...

I think I'm having a De Ja Vu...

I think you still consider it a winner. That's how you feel and that's fine.

The point is that there's no right or wrong here. There isn't. There's just what is considered normal. Race winners are winners. Series winners are champions. However, the terms can be interchanged based on the usage and opinion of the "author". So if Motorminded wants to call them champions, he's not wrong in doing so, no matter how much it irks you.

It's also really not very confusing. I knew exactly what he meant when he called the car the Le Mans 24h Champion. If it ruffles your feathers then that's fine! But you can't call him wrong, because he isn't.

[/QUOTE]

Thanks! I knew there had to have been an R1 through R7, but Google wasn't giving me any answers when I tried it.

 

[Prince.M5]

The point is that there's no right or wrong here. There isn't. There's just what is considered normal. Race winners are winners. Series winners are champions. However, the terms can be interchanged based on the usage and opinion of the "author". So if Motorminded wants to call them champions, he's not wrong in doing so, no matter how much it irks you.

It's also really not very confusing. I knew exactly what he meant when he called the car the Le Mans 24h Champion. If it ruffles your feathers then that's fine! But you can't call him wrong, because he isn't.

As I've said, it's up to anyone of you to call Audi a winner or a champion. I have absolutely no problem in understanding when he said champion because he stated ''Le Mans 24 Champion'' and not ''Le Mans Champion'' and there isn't any confusion in there.

The sentences I bolded there is how things should be. I usually don't care of this stuff but as an argument was started, I come in and have my say and my say is (after being corrected) since the 24 Hours of Le Mans, regardless of its speciality it's still part of WEC (also formerly part of ILMC) and thus calling someone who crosses the line first as champion is not 100% right and I think you've understood the reason why. Motominded decided to call them champion, owkey that's his opinion and I respect that, but fact is still a fact and no one can't deny it.

This can go all day long but if that's what the author's opinion and view I'm afraid I couldn't do any much. As long as you, me and the rest of the thread readers understand the differences between 'Winner' and 'Champion' then that's fair enough.

 

[Motominded]

but fact is still a fact and no one can't deny it.

Forum logic has always been, "If i said it, it is fact." Therefore, anything said on the forum is just a matter of opinion. To me, this has turned into the Oxford Comma.

 

[TheCracker]

Interesting that the DTM Audi TT isn't given a 'R' number. I know it wasn't an official factory car (it was run by ABT) but i'm sure Audi were happy enough to take the glory when it won the 2002 Championship.