Australian Formula 1 Grand Prix 2009

  • Thread starter GT4 genius
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Are the cars seriously in those blue crate things? I thought of it as a joke. If so then the red one has grooved tires.
 
wrcsti
Are the cars seriously in those blue crate things? I thought of it as a joke. If so then the red one has grooved tires.
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If you look closely at the red car, it has 2 cockpits. Probably to give the wealthy/famous a thrill ride around the track.
 
Metar
Because they do - it essentially means a longer, and thus more capable diffuser. The reason, however, why it's said to be "against the spirit" is different: The whole point this year wasn't just to reduce downforce, but mainly to reduce a car's sensitivity to another car's wake. The problem with these diffusers is that they're longer and not uniformly long, and airflow exits them at different speeds from different sections - thus creating more turbulence than intended with this year's narrower diffusers.
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Ahh, I was under the assumption the diffusers would have little effect on the wake (and may even help what with being longer!). Thanks for clearing that point up 👍
 
This is something typical for the teams to protest against right at the start of the season to not give those teams a chance to design a new and proper diffuser...

So much for credit a team gets when designing clever parts...
 
They can't do it before, I think ... test cars can have whatever parts the teams want (2008 rear spoilers, diesel engines, you name it), so the only way to know if a team is trying to get an illegal car to an official race is ... when the car is delivered for pre-race scruteneering.
 
When a car is unveiled and presented with a diffusers that others think are illegal, you could easily force those teams to develop a diffuser well early in the testing season before the new season gets underway.

They all could've complained back in February, that way, both Toyota, Williams and BrawnGP could've designed a new diffuser.
 
Is it likely that the "illegal" teams have a backup diffuser design in case the current ones are somehow deemed unfit to race?
 
Yes, but it won't have been tested on track. So it may be nearly there but wind tunnels don't tell us everything. And without in-season testing it'll take several weekends for them to catch up.
 
Would mean a heck of a lot of money to design two types. Then again, would those teams be daft enough to design a part as big as the diffuser to be outside of the rules? Would seem a bit too stupid for experienced teams.
 
As far as I've heard (somewhere in www.thef1.com), the reason Renault and RBR are complaining is 'cuz they showed similar diffuser concepts to the FIA earlier this year, were told they were illegal and, thus, had to work on simpler designs. So, they're in their right to complain if other teams are "allowed" to do what the FIA said could not be done...

... That is, if the story is real.
 
Bram Turismo
When a car is unveiled and presented with a diffusers that others think are illegal, you could easily force those teams to develop a diffuser well early in the testing season before the new season gets underway.

They all could've complained back in February, that way, both Toyota, Williams and BrawnGP could've designed a new diffuser.
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No, they couldn't. The best they could do was "seek clarification" from the FIA - which delivered a highly ambiguous response: "It might be legal, but then again, it might be illegal." During an official weekend only, can the teams lodge a protest against a car should it pass the scrutinizers. It might even not pass these, though.

T/W/B could've (and perhaps should've) designed a spare one just-in-case, but out of their own free will - no team could be forced to change their cars: In pre-season testing (and in any sessions outside the official Friday-Sunday sessions), teams can run whatever they want as long as it conforms with safety-regulations: A V12-engined ground-effects go-kart on Michelin slicks, if so they wish. Or, more recently, McLaren's slightly-too-wide front wheel fairings, or indeed, the T/W/B diffusers: They were 100% legal before the latest amendment to the rules, but are now in a gray zone which, hopefully, will be cleared by tomorrow. Toyota, rest assured, already stated that they have a backup design - the only question remaining is how good it is without testing.

And one last thing: The major complaint Renault and Red Bull raised wasn't just the part itself: It was mainly that they themselves asked the FIA, just like Toyota and Williams, if such a part was legal - way back in 2008 - and received a negative reply. Could've been the wording, or a small difference in the details - but they stated that they came up with this part, but were told it will be illegal.
 
What if the Brawns are declared iilegal? Are they supposed to run with no diffuser at all? I don't think they can get a new design done in that time...
 
They'll:

  • Race with a knowingly-illegal part, and either hope to appeal the decision later on or because there's nothing better to do.
  • Not race at all, and sit it out in the garage, saving money, parts and engine-life.
  • Use a makeshift diffuser from earlier stages of the design - by now, you can be certain that Brawn have at least a "standard" diffuser ready somewhere in their container.

Note that option A is only possible if it's declared illegal after the scrutinizing. If they don't pass it in the first place, they won't be allowed out of the pitbox.
 
BBC are reporting, as of 40 minutes ago, that the stewards at Melbourne have passed the three (six) cars and that 4 teams plan to launch an official protest...

BBC Sport
Page last updated at 08:49 GMT, Thursday, 26 March 2009
Protest row sours opening F1 race

A protest has been lodged against the cars of three teams on the eve of the season-opening Australian Grand Prix.

Ferrari, BMW Sauber, Renault and Red Bull claim the cars of Brawn GP, Toyota and Williams have illegal parts that give them an unfair advantage.

The protest was lodged after stewards in Melbourne said on Thursday the cars conformed with Formula One's rules.

A spokesman for governing body the FIA said it hoped to have a verdict on the appeal by the end of Thursday.

[...]

But whatever that verdict is, the losing parties are likely to make an appeal against it - and that hearing is unlikely to be scheduled by the FIA until after the second race of the season in Malaysia on 5 April.
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Sureboss
Would mean a heck of a lot of money to design two types. Then again, would those teams be daft enough to design a part as big as the diffuser to be outside of the rules? Would seem a bit too stupid for experienced teams.
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Too stupid, or perhaps, too desperate. For at least a few teams, this season is about survival more than ever before. BMW, Renault, Red Bull had their hands full contending with the frontrunners, already... and sponsors don't want 'their' liveries at the back where they won't get much love from veiwers (potential customers)! The ramifications of the scrutineers decision could be profound, I think. I can't really blame the 'cheaters', per se. More than likely it's their survival on the line... not just winning! And to be clear, I don't expect the teams I mentioned to just sit by and not protest while these guys come outta nowhere and put them out of business, potentially.
 
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Famine
BBC are reporting, as of 40 minutes ago, that the stewards at Melbourne have passed the three (six) cars and that 4 teams plan to launch an official protest...
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Better yet - turns out it's just 3 teams launching a protest, since BMW apparently got something wrong with their papers.

Also, McLaren also turned up with a Brawn-esque diffuser, behind that flimsy cover:

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I guess McLaren have heard the phrase "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" then.

Apparently the Renault, Red Bull and Ferrari phrasebook has the alternate "If you can't beat 'em, whine to any bugger who'll listen."

mustang245
Too stupid, or perhaps, too desperate. For at least a few teams, this season is about survival more than ever before. BMW, Renault, Red Bull had their hands full contending with the frontrunners, already... and sponsors don't want 'their' liveries at the back where they won't get much love from veiwers (potential customers)! The ramifications of the scrutineers decision could be profound, I think. I can't really blame the 'cheaters', per se. More than likely it's their survival on the line... not just winning!
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Tuned Mass Dampers.

And if I recall correctly, they were deemed legal by FIA-appointed race stewards, against whom the FIA then appealed to the FIA court of appeal. Whereupon the stewards' decision was overturned and the part was banned.
 
Thing is, it's unclear what that McLaren diffuser is. It looks like it has some Brawn-ish lines - but also lacks the sculpting around the rear crash structure that is required for such a diffuser...


Also, don't forget Renault and RBR asked the FIA if such a part could be legal early on in their development, and received a negative reply - apparently contrary to what Toyota and Williams heard.
 
Famine
I guess McLaren have heard the phrase "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" then.

Apparently the Renault, Red Bull and Ferrari phrasebook has the alternate "If you can't beat 'em, whine to any bugger who'll listen."



Tuned Mass Dampers.

And if I recall correctly, they were deemed legal by FIA-appointed race stewards, against whom the FIA then appealed to the FIA court of appeal. Whereupon the stewards' decision was overturned and the part was banned.
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That was Renault wasn't it?

If I remember correctly Alonso was allowed to keep all the points he'd earned with this system up to the point it was banned.

I'm guessing that won't happen in Melbourne.
 
Tired Tyres
That was Renault wasn't it?
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(yes. That was the point - note to whom I responded, while he was busy calling other teams who found a way to work round the rules "desperate" and "'cheaters'")
 
Famine
(yes. That was the point - note to whom I responded, while he was busy calling other teams who found a way to work round the rules "desperate" and "'cheaters'")
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My point was meant to infer, Famine, that both sides are desperate out of financial survival. Nothing more. Whether you like Renault, or Toyota, a losing season could well run them out of the sport. This is my opinion.
 
Metar
Also, don't forget Renault and RBR asked the FIA if such a part could be legal early on in their development, and received a negative reply - apparently contrary to what Toyota and Williams heard.
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There’s a lot of speculation that Max has stopped a decision from being made on this subject to make sure it went to Melbourne and caused some conflict within FOTA.

I wonder though, could he have seen the opportunity to split the teams way back when teams were asking about the legality of this approach? FOTA was just gaining power and a chance to break it up would be a very strong political win. Maybe he made sure different teams got different information about the legality of the diffusers.

Kinda sad that we even have to contemplate such ideas though.
 
mustang245
infer
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Imply. The author implies things. Readers infer them.

In either case, it's another example of what F1 is best at - creativity and innovation within a set of rules. And also what F1 is worst at - punishing creativity and innovation by making up a new set.
 
Does anybody else get the feeling that - assuming this is the teams running to the stewards because someone has better toys than they do - despite Williams and Toyota being a part of the official protest, the real target is Brawn GP?
 

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