You have my idea wrong. If the person isn't paying attention to DRIVING, they will do those things (because shifting is subconsciously included in the act of driving, as you said).
Automatic vs. Manual: The Ultimate Showdown Thread
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You have my idea wrong. If the person isn't paying attention to DRIVING, they will do those things (because shifting is subconsciously included in the act of driving, as you said).
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I said you're being a stubborn, argumentative git. Not that you are one. You might be lovely, but from this particular conversation you wouldn't know it.
Not until you go beyond a certain point. To paraphrase you earlier, having to operate each cylinder individually would be more difficult, having to operate a gear lever in a way that's remained essentially the same for decades and you're taught very early on when learning to drive, isn't.
It isn't more complicated. Having a split shift like you'd find on a lorry is more complicated (though necessary) and I'd say if they introduced that in cars it'd be a bad move (though one of my friends is a truckie and even he's got used to a split shift now, only a month after passing his heavy goods vehicle test. And he's taken the articulated vehicle test too - even more "complications", yet still well within the realms of human concentration).
Just because automatic transmissions exist it doesn't mean that manual transmissions are suddenly outmoded and complicated. Hell, if it did then the manual tranny would have disappeared way back in the 50s, or whenever the first auto came out. The fact is, many people enjoy using them, and many other people are easily capable of using them without being "distracted" by their operation.
So can steering: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3rJ7RL52Now
No, you don't. I can honestly repeat this as many times as it takes for you to grasp, so you might want to put your feet up and make yourself a drink.
The process becomes second nature even throughout the average course of driving lessons. The actual concentration is dedicated to watching the road and remembering the rules. Driving is just the means to the end, and requires no more thought for the actual process than walking or cycling does.
And I was pointing out why my analogy is applicable.
Neither transmission is distracting. Again, something I can repeat for as long as is necessary.
No it isn't. MT is not a distraction. It doesn't distract you. It isn't very distracting. People are not distracted by it. It doesn't cause a distraction to other drivers. You are driving me to distraction with this talk of distraction. Yes, an AT takes away the effort of needing to change gear, but many, many people don't really find it an effort anyway, unless their daily commute involves lots of traffic. And then they choose AT because it's easy, not because they'd spend the whole journey being distracted otherwise.
Get that? AT is easier. It's got absolutely nothing to do with distraction. Your obsession with MT being distracting is completely and utterly irrelevant.
Is it easier to do all those things driving MT or AT? I'm guessing AT, and I'm guessing that many more drivers using AT are likely to push their luck doing things other than actually driving - therefore not actually concentrating on the road. I've heard of people saying "it's okay to use my phone when I'm driving because my car is automatic". Erm, nope, your gearshift may be automatic but you're still doing 30mph in a two-tonne off-roader going past a school, and your auto transmission won't help reduce the braking distance to the child about to cross the road. Your concentration skills will, however.
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Ok, let's look at it that way.
You can control all 4 things with either transmission, but with a manual transmission, you can do it more accurately because you have instantaneous response. You can downshift with both, but the manual transmission gives you the ability to do it smoothly via heel-toe/rev matching.
You still come out having more effective and accurate control with a manual transmission.
Control: 1. To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over
Can we not agree that being able to "exercise authoritative" more accurately and effectively means you have more control, or to make more sense, better control?
EDIT: Don't apply this to actually driving a vehicle, since it's making us view "control" in different ways.
Can you agree that being able to shift exactly and instantly when you want to = more control over the transmission itself than simply being able to go "I want to shift sometime around now"?
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///M-Spec
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I think this is good advice. Personally, I'm going to take a couple of days off this thread.
I think some of you should as well.
You know who you are.
M
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///M-Spec
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No, not at all. I think the way you've been conducting yourself is totally fine.
But if anyone finds themselves getting annoyed or angry, you should probably take a break form the thread.
M
Danoff
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Oh well... in that case, everything's fine. Seriously, try to ask yourself how that helps in any way whatsoever.
That makes no sense.
You said so yourself. (and you were right)
Outmoded, no, more complicated, yes.
Not possible. I enjoy using mine and am very adept at doing so - but it does distract me.
Not the same thing, not even close.
That's utterly incorrect, and it dangerously simplifies the task of driving. Especially with a manual.
To be honest, both are distracting. One more so than the other. I can repeat this for as long as is necessary.
Some shifts require a greater degree of attention than others. In my car, for example, 5->6 requires more attention than 2->3. A shift in a turn requires more attention than one in a straight line. None of them require zero attention.
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Joey D
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Yes I can agree that you have more control over the transmission with a manual since that is the point of them. However on the same token I will same many modern autos act in a similar way, but since not 100% of them do it I won't say they all offer the same control over the transmission.
Sure it does. Up to a certain point, multitasking can become second nature. You may be able to do 5 things at once, but once you try 6 or 7, it's too much (just as an example).
Those two parts don't seem to mesh together too well. If you're adept at driving it, you shouldn't be distracted by shifting. Also, if driving a manual is so distracting, how do race car drivers race so close together at high speeds without problems? So I'll refer back to this:
Many people do it, race car drivers being a prime example. In fact, they take it a step further and they do heel-toe without even thinking. They do it so often, it's not a distraction any more. Just like regularly driving a manual on a day-to-day basis.
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In all honesty, it's simply to bring it to your attention.
On it's own, it doesn't, I apologise. I was going to add to it but forgot. What I meant was that there are several different components of the driving process, and all the standard ones (steering, working the pedals, moving the gear lever) aren't complicated. Adding to them further (like my split-shift example) would make things more complicated. (EDIT: Kingcars beat me to it)
The reason the processes have stayed essentially the same for many, many years, is because they are simple. If there was an ostensibly better way of doing any of those functions it would have been explored by now.
If you consider yourself adept at using a manual transmission it should not distract you. You're either overestimating your adeptness, or you're using the distraction element of your comment to attempt to back up your weak arguement that MT is distracting.
Not really. Both are second nature given a certain amount of practice. When you're a very young toddler you might have trouble walking, in the same way a new driver might have trouble driving. In time, and with practice, you learn all the elements required and the extent to which you use them, and the process becomes second nature.
Again I'd question your comment about adeptness if you happen make a habit of shifting in the middle of a corner. Or perhaps that's why you find manual transmissions distracting?
Let me reiterate: Driving requires attention, the functions that manifest themselves in order to drive are second nature. Maybe you have to concentrate intently on every shift but personally I change gear when I need using near-subconscious sensations that I've gained from driving the same car for the last five and a half years, all actions that now require no conscious thought process, allowing me to actually concentrate on the road ahead and situations around me.
And with that, I'm going to bed because it's 1.49am over here and sleep does wonders for ones' patience.
Sorry Danoff, but it seems to me that you'd like to say that manuals are distracting by principle of the fact that you have to move your limbs and perform specific actions. If so, everything you do is distracting. Distracting you from what, then? Your inner thoughts? Wouldn't those be a distraction from driving?
Driving can't be a distraction from driving unless part of it requires something you're not accustomed to doing. And if you're not accustomed to that part of the driving process, you probably shouldn't be on the road in that car, no?
Driving can't be a distraction from driving unless part of it requires something you're not accustomed to doing. And if you're not accustomed to that part of the driving process, you probably shouldn't be on the road in that car, no?
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Danoff
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I find it irritating that this conversion has required me to ignore repeated personal attacks, and now attacks on my competency.
I'm a perfectionist when it comes to my shifting. I've had professionals ride with me to give me tips on shifting and clutch usage. I've driven dozens of different clutch styles, performed just about every advanced manual shifting technique that I know of and enjoy competitive driving. I constantly seek to improve my own driving abilities - which is why it is so painful for me to ride with so many who drive MT so incredibly badly. I've been driving manual vehicles for over 10 years, and will never stop seeking to improve my abilities.
I'll close the day with this. If your argument is so weak as to require personal attacks, please re-examine your position. Your argument should stand on its own. You should not need to attempt to make me out to be an imbecile, egoist, or incompetent to make your position stick.
Back with more tomorrow.
I'm a perfectionist when it comes to my shifting. I've had professionals ride with me to give me tips on shifting and clutch usage. I've driven dozens of different clutch styles, performed just about every advanced manual shifting technique that I know of and enjoy competitive driving. I constantly seek to improve my own driving abilities - which is why it is so painful for me to ride with so many who drive MT so incredibly badly. I've been driving manual vehicles for over 10 years, and will never stop seeking to improve my abilities.
I'll close the day with this. If your argument is so weak as to require personal attacks, please re-examine your position. Your argument should stand on its own. You should not need to attempt to make me out to be an imbecile, egoist, or incompetent to make your position stick.
Back with more tomorrow.
We didn't attack you personally, we pointed out an error in your logic. You're trying to base your argument on only your experience, which apparently is very different from what most people have. We also backed our points up with examples. I'm just starting to learn the intricacies of driving a manual; I take note of rough shifts and other errors, just as anyone else does, but it does not distract me from the rest of my driving. I'm actually a much more attentive driver now, which is saying a lot considering I've always been one to focus on driving.
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I think this is the most I've ever seen of Danoff outside of the opinions thread. Awesome!
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So, when do we talk about the blurring lines between what is an automatic and what is a manual?
You, know, like Mercedes/AMG's "MCT" transmission?
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So, when do we talk about the blurring lines between what is an automatic and what is a manual?
You, know, like Mercedes/AMG's "MCT" transmission?
McLaren
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Imagine how much traffic would be on the street today in the US if only the people who drove stick were allowed to drive...Reventón;3195749
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A better idea is if they think driving a stick is difficult, but want to learn it, then they should keep practicing. Of course if they think it's difficult and hate doing it, then by all means they should just drive an auto.
McLaren
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What does that have to with his post, though? He's basically saying, "If you can't drive a manual, you shouldn't be driving at all". So what? Someone who doesn't want to be playing with a manual all day now suddenly shouldn't be allowed to drive at all?
It's silly logic, and a statement like that seems to be one that would spewed by a biased-manual driver.
