Automatic vs. Manual: The Ultimate Showdown Thread

[kingcars]

In other words, because it requires some of your concentration to drive your manual vehicle, you are being distracted from the other part of driving.

You proved his point.

You have my idea wrong. If the person isn't paying attention to DRIVING, they will do those things (because shifting is subconsciously included in the act of driving, as you said).

 

[Joey D]

Because we are defining control as the amount of control you have over your vehicle. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are still defining control as whether or not you are "in control." We could argue the semantics if you'd like, but we won't get anywhere until that's sorted.

Yup, I'm seeing it how everyone is phrasing it. I believe you are just as in control with a modern auto as you are with a manual. I agree you are probably more involved with a manual though.

 

[homeforsummer]

VV

I said you're being a stubborn, argumentative git. Not that you are one. You might be lovely, but from this particular conversation you wouldn't know it.

Every task you have to perform makes driving one step more difficult.

Not until you go beyond a certain point. To paraphrase you earlier, having to operate each cylinder individually would be more difficult, having to operate a gear lever in a way that's remained essentially the same for decades and you're taught very early on when learning to drive, isn't.

It would be if ATs didn't exist. But since they exist, it is now simply a more complicated way to operate a vehicle.

It isn't more complicated. Having a split shift like you'd find on a lorry is more complicated (though necessary) and I'd say if they introduced that in cars it'd be a bad move (though one of my friends is a truckie and even he's got used to a split shift now, only a month after passing his heavy goods vehicle test. And he's taken the articulated vehicle test too - even more "complications", yet still well within the realms of human concentration).

Just because automatic transmissions exist it doesn't mean that manual transmissions are suddenly outmoded and complicated. Hell, if it did then the manual tranny would have disappeared way back in the 50s, or whenever the first auto came out. The fact is, many people enjoy using them, and many other people are easily capable of using them without being "distracted" by their operation.

Much less than the steering wheel is. How do I know? Because transmission operation can be AUTOMATED.

So can steering: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3rJ7RL52Now

You do need to concentrate on (ie: consider) shifting.

No, you don't. I can honestly repeat this as many times as it takes for you to grasp, so you might want to put your feet up and make yourself a drink.

The process becomes second nature even throughout the average course of driving lessons. The actual concentration is dedicated to watching the road and remembering the rules. Driving is just the means to the end, and requires no more thought for the actual process than walking or cycling does.

I was pointing out why your analogy is not applicable, not telling you what you were trying to say. Keep up.

And I was pointing out why my analogy is applicable.

A) Not if shifting is subconscious
B) Not in situations where driving is boring
C) Try assuming both drivers are alert and tell me that the AT isn't less distracting.

Neither transmission is distracting. Again, something I can repeat for as long as is necessary.

And in situations where people are not likely to be lazy, MT is a distraction.

No it isn't. MT is not a distraction. It doesn't distract you. It isn't very distracting. People are not distracted by it. It doesn't cause a distraction to other drivers. You are driving me to distraction with this talk of distraction. Yes, an AT takes away the effort of needing to change gear, but many, many people don't really find it an effort anyway, unless their daily commute involves lots of traffic. And then they choose AT because it's easy, not because they'd spend the whole journey being distracted otherwise.

Get that? AT is easier. It's got absolutely nothing to do with distraction. Your obsession with MT being distracting is completely and utterly irrelevant.

They try to eat, talk on their phone, use the radio, etc. except that they now have more trouble doing so because they have to operating the shifter. Nothing in my own experience driving ATs and MTs, and seeing others drive transmissions of both types leads me to believe that MT does anything except add a task to driving.

Is it easier to do all those things driving MT or AT? I'm guessing AT, and I'm guessing that many more drivers using AT are likely to push their luck doing things other than actually driving - therefore not actually concentrating on the road. I've heard of people saying "it's okay to use my phone when I'm driving because my car is automatic". Erm, nope, your gearshift may be automatic but you're still doing 30mph in a two-tonne off-roader going past a school, and your auto transmission won't help reduce the braking distance to the child about to cross the road. Your concentration skills will, however.

 

[Perfect Balance]

You can still slap stick with probably 98% of autos, thus choosing gears, and most modern autos have some sort of manumatic system. They still can be interpreted as four a piece.

Ok, let's look at it that way.

You can control all 4 things with either transmission, but with a manual transmission, you can do it more accurately because you have instantaneous response. You can downshift with both, but the manual transmission gives you the ability to do it smoothly via heel-toe/rev matching.

You still come out having more effective and accurate control with a manual transmission.

Control: 1. To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over

Can we not agree that being able to "exercise authoritative" more accurately and effectively means you have more control, or to make more sense, better control?

EDIT: Don't apply this to actually driving a vehicle, since it's making us view "control" in different ways.

Can you agree that being able to shift exactly and instantly when you want to = more control over the transmission itself than simply being able to go "I want to shift sometime around now"?

 

[kingcars]

That's not an inherent flaw in driving an AT. If it is a problem, it's a problem in individual decision making.

Just like not being able to shift subconsciously is an individual problem, no?

 

[///M-Spec]

I (seriously) think you guys need to go out for a bit and chill, otherwise you'll just keep throwing feces at each other.

I think this is good advice. Personally, I'm going to take a couple of days off this thread.

I think some of you should as well.

You know who you are.


M

 

[Perfect Balance]

I think this is good advice. Personally, I'm going to take a couple of days off this thread.

I think some of you should as well.

You know who you are.


M

Which is why I strictly try to keep personal opinions out of discussions. Things always manage to get heated quickly and the swear filter has to pop in a few times.

EDIT: *can't stop thinking it was still somewhat directed at me*

 

[Wolfe]

Just like not being able to shift subconsciously is an individual problem, no?

I gotta say: daaaaaaaamn.

 

[kingcars]

I gotta say: daaaaaaaamn.

You know who you are.

Ok ok, I'll stop. I have homework to do anyway.

 

[///M-Spec]

EDIT: *can't stop thinking it was still somewhat directed at me*

No, not at all. I think the way you've been conducting yourself is totally fine.



But if anyone finds themselves getting annoyed or angry, you should probably take a break form the thread.


M

 

[Danoff]

I said you're being a stubborn, argumentative git. Not that you are one. You might be lovely, but from this particular conversation you wouldn't know it.

Oh well... in that case, everything's fine. Seriously, try to ask yourself how that helps in any way whatsoever.

Not until you go beyond a certain point.

That makes no sense.

It isn't more complicated.

You said so yourself. (and you were right)

Just because automatic transmissions exist it doesn't mean that manual transmissions are suddenly outmoded and complicated.

Outmoded, no, more complicated, yes.

The fact is, many people enjoy using them, and many other people are easily capable of using them without being "distracted" by their operation.

Not possible. I enjoy using mine and am very adept at doing so - but it does distract me.

So can steering: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3rJ7RL52Now

Not the same thing, not even close.

The process becomes second nature even throughout the average course of driving lessons. The actual concentration is dedicated to watching the road and remembering the rules. Driving is just the means to the end, and requires no more thought for the actual process than walking or cycling does.

That's utterly incorrect, and it dangerously simplifies the task of driving. Especially with a manual.

Neither transmission is distracting. Again, something I can repeat for as long as is necessary.

To be honest, both are distracting. One more so than the other. I can repeat this for as long as is necessary.

Just like not being able to shift subconsciously is an individual problem, no?

Some shifts require a greater degree of attention than others. In my car, for example, 5->6 requires more attention than 2->3. A shift in a turn requires more attention than one in a straight line. None of them require zero attention.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Outmoded, no, more complicated, yes.

Manual transmissions more complicated than automatic?


Have you seen how both of them work? A manual transmission is VERY simple compared to a automatic.

EDIT: Wait, I think you mean in terms of driving them. In which case I agree.

 

[Joey D]

Can you agree that being able to shift exactly and instantly when you want to = more control over the transmission itself than simply being able to go "I want to shift sometime around now"?

Yes I can agree that you have more control over the transmission with a manual since that is the point of them. However on the same token I will same many modern autos act in a similar way, but since not 100% of them do it I won't say they all offer the same control over the transmission.

 

[kingcars]

That makes no sense.

Sure it does. Up to a certain point, multitasking can become second nature. You may be able to do 5 things at once, but once you try 6 or 7, it's too much (just as an example).

Not possible. I enjoy using mine and am very adept at doing so - but it does distract me.

Those two parts don't seem to mesh together too well. If you're adept at driving it, you shouldn't be distracted by shifting. Also, if driving a manual is so distracting, how do race car drivers race so close together at high speeds without problems? So I'll refer back to this:

Just like not being able to shift subconsciously is an individual problem, no?

Many people do it, race car drivers being a prime example. In fact, they take it a step further and they do heel-toe without even thinking. They do it so often, it's not a distraction any more. Just like regularly driving a manual on a day-to-day basis.

 

[homeforsummer]

Oh well... in that case, everything's fine. Seriously, try to ask yourself how that helps in any way whatsoever.

In all honesty, it's simply to bring it to your attention.

That makes no sense.

On it's own, it doesn't, I apologise. I was going to add to it but forgot. What I meant was that there are several different components of the driving process, and all the standard ones (steering, working the pedals, moving the gear lever) aren't complicated. Adding to them further (like my split-shift example) would make things more complicated. (EDIT: Kingcars beat me to it)

The reason the processes have stayed essentially the same for many, many years, is because they are simple. If there was an ostensibly better way of doing any of those functions it would have been explored by now.

Not possible. I enjoy using mine and am very adept at doing so - but it does distract me.

If you consider yourself adept at using a manual transmission it should not distract you. You're either overestimating your adeptness, or you're using the distraction element of your comment to attempt to back up your weak arguement that MT is distracting.

That's utterly incorrect, and it dangerously simplifies the task of driving. Especially with a manual.

Not really. Both are second nature given a certain amount of practice. When you're a very young toddler you might have trouble walking, in the same way a new driver might have trouble driving. In time, and with practice, you learn all the elements required and the extent to which you use them, and the process becomes second nature.

Some shifts require a greater degree of attention than others. In my car, for example, 5->6 requires more attention than 2->3. A shift in a turn requires more attention than one in a straight line. None of them require zero attention.

Again I'd question your comment about adeptness if you happen make a habit of shifting in the middle of a corner. Or perhaps that's why you find manual transmissions distracting?

Let me reiterate: Driving requires attention, the functions that manifest themselves in order to drive are second nature. Maybe you have to concentrate intently on every shift but personally I change gear when I need using near-subconscious sensations that I've gained from driving the same car for the last five and a half years, all actions that now require no conscious thought process, allowing me to actually concentrate on the road ahead and situations around me.

And with that, I'm going to bed because it's 1.49am over here and sleep does wonders for ones' patience.

 

[Wolfe]

Sorry Danoff, but it seems to me that you'd like to say that manuals are distracting by principle of the fact that you have to move your limbs and perform specific actions. If so, everything you do is distracting. Distracting you from what, then? Your inner thoughts? Wouldn't those be a distraction from driving?

Driving can't be a distraction from driving unless part of it requires something you're not accustomed to doing. And if you're not accustomed to that part of the driving process, you probably shouldn't be on the road in that car, no?

 

[kingcars]

Wow, three straight posts of me, homeforsummer, AND wolfe all on the SAME exact page. That's awesome.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Wow, three straight posts of me, homeforsummer, AND wolfe all on the SAME exact page. That's awesome.

And now me too!!!

 

[Danoff]

I find it irritating that this conversion has required me to ignore repeated personal attacks, and now attacks on my competency.

I'm a perfectionist when it comes to my shifting. I've had professionals ride with me to give me tips on shifting and clutch usage. I've driven dozens of different clutch styles, performed just about every advanced manual shifting technique that I know of and enjoy competitive driving. I constantly seek to improve my own driving abilities - which is why it is so painful for me to ride with so many who drive MT so incredibly badly. I've been driving manual vehicles for over 10 years, and will never stop seeking to improve my abilities.

I'll close the day with this. If your argument is so weak as to require personal attacks, please re-examine your position. Your argument should stand on its own. You should not need to attempt to make me out to be an imbecile, egoist, or incompetent to make your position stick.

Back with more tomorrow.

 

[kingcars]

If your argument is so weak as to require personal attacks, please re-examine your position. Your argument should stand on its own. You should not need to attempt to make me out to be an imbecile, egoist, or incompetent to make your position stick.

Back with more tomorrow.

We didn't attack you personally, we pointed out an error in your logic. You're trying to base your argument on only your experience, which apparently is very different from what most people have. We also backed our points up with examples. I'm just starting to learn the intricacies of driving a manual; I take note of rough shifts and other errors, just as anyone else does, but it does not distract me from the rest of my driving. I'm actually a much more attentive driver now, which is saying a lot considering I've always been one to focus on driving.

 

[Azuremen]

Umm, you kind of did attack him personally, King... a few times.

And...

Yes I can agree that you have more control over the transmission with a manual since that is the point of them. However on the same token I will same many modern autos act in a similar way, but since not 100% of them do it I won't say they all offer the same control over the transmission.

Srsly? You think having more control over a part of the car that is just a bit important does not mean having more control over the car in general?

 

[YSSMAN]

I think this is the most I've ever seen of Danoff outside of the opinions thread. Awesome!

===

So, when do we talk about the blurring lines between what is an automatic and what is a manual?

You, know, like Mercedes/AMG's "MCT" transmission?

 

[kingcars]

Umm, you kind of did attack him personally, King... a few times.

Not in the instance he was referring to. And I apologize for previous instances.

 

[McLaren]

If someone think driving a stick is difficult, why the **** are they driving?

What kind of silly logic is this? If someone can't drive a stick, they shouldn't be driving? What if someone's arm just isn't suited to the amount of movement it takes to move the stick around., you think they shouldn't be driving if an auto is the perfect alternative?

 

[Perfect Balance]

What kind of silly logic is this? If someone can't drive a stick, they shouldn't be driving? What if someone's arm just isn't suited to the amount of movement it takes to move the stick around., you think they shouldn't be driving if an auto is the perfect alternative?

Imagine how much traffic would be on the street today in the US if only the people who drove stick were allowed to drive...

 

[buickgnx88]

A better idea is if they think driving a stick is difficult, but want to learn it, then they should keep practicing. Of course if they think it's difficult and hate doing it, then by all means they should just drive an auto.

 

[kingcars]

What kind of silly logic is this? If someone can't drive a stick, they shouldn't be driving? What if someone's arm just isn't suited to the amount of movement it takes to move the stick around., you think they shouldn't be driving if an auto is the perfect alternative?

Dude, let it rest. I'm pretty sure it was a joke. At least that's how I took it.

 

[McLaren]

Imagine how much traffic would be on the street today in the US if only the people who drove stick were allowed to drive...

What does that have to with his post, though? He's basically saying, "If you can't drive a manual, you shouldn't be driving at all". So what? Someone who doesn't want to be playing with a manual all day now suddenly shouldn't be allowed to drive at all?

It's silly logic, and a statement like that seems to be one that would spewed by a biased-manual driver.

 

[kingcars]

It's silly logic, and a statement like that seems to be one that would spewed by a biased-manual driver.

It was a simple statement. Traffic would be reduced greatly if only stick drivers were allowed. That's a valid point. Worthless to the conversation at hand, but valid (and true), and nothing to get worked up about.

 

[McLaren]

It was a simple statement. Traffic would be reduced greatly if only stick drivers were allowed. That's a valid point. Worthless to the conversation at hand, but valid (and true), and nothing to get worked up about.

I highly doubt that was eirik's point behind his statement. I see no humor intended at all in it, but instead, a cheap comment made towards automatic drivers.