Automatic vs. Manual

[Jet Badger]

Those things are passive aids (except ABS) that don't get into process of driving. I slightly prefer cars without ABS.

 

[Sniffs]

So I guess all you "Manual only for me" guys, drive cars with no power assisted brakes or steering, with no ABS, a manual choke and no synchromesh on your gearboxes.... yes? And I assume all your cars have to be hand cranked to start?

*high five*
oy, I should buy you a pint for that!

I've seen british roads, you need better tarmac ingredients (or a way to get the Council to stop leaning on their shovels)
meanwhile, ours lean on the throttles of the road rollers and on the traffic control signs while everybody else leans on the throttles of the backhoe to reseat every pipe in the draininge system (and have you drive 3 miles into the verge at 2 miles per hour, risking ripping off youir lines and putting a hole in your fuel tank to get around)

 

[Azuremen]

Those things are passive aids (except ABS) that don't get into process of driving. I slightly prefer cars without ABS.

I'll take a car with ABS any day, because honestly, you can not brake that consistently, especially if the surface isn't perfect (and that is always)

 

[Keef]

So I guess all you "Manual only for me" guys, drive cars with no power assisted brakes or steering, with no ABS, a manual choke and no synchromesh on your gearboxes.... yes? And I assume all your cars have to be hand cranked to start?

Vacuum assisted brakes, hydraulic assisted steering, and syncromesh transmissions are all mechanical systems. There is no electricity or computers required for them to operate. ABS can be a mechanical system, but none of them are anymore, and besides, not having ABS is perfectly acceptable as my last two cars have not had it and I actually find it safer on dry asphalt and in dirt and snow. It's nice to have in the rain though.

A basic battery and alternator electric system in a car is basically a mechanical system - electromechanical to be precise. Through various switches and hard wires, electric signals are sent to actuate whatever is being actuated. There is no interpretation in this system - it simple does what it does, and it either works or it doesn't.

The sensors required to run the engine in my 1991 RX7 are all potentiometers. They don't "sense" anything - they simply limit and measure amounts of electricity. The whole system including the computer is a very basic electromechanical system. The computer doesn't even make "decisions" like the computers on modern cars. It receives an input, and it produces an output. It either works or it doesn't.

Modern cars' computers have replaced electromechanical systems with entirely electronic systems not controlled by simple switches, but by a computer capable of overriding any input by the operator. Instead of the operator telling the mechanical system what to do, and the potentiometers simply relaying to the computer what it is doing, the operator must tell the computer what he wants to do, the computer must consider if that is an appropriate action, and then the computer may or may not tell various electronic actuators to do what the operator wants them to do. An electronic throttle for example - there is no mechanical or even electrical connection between the driver and the throttle. The physical connection stops at the computer. The computer decides how to manipulate the throttle, and it takes into consideration the operator's desired input and various other factors. The computer is capable of ignoring the operator altogether, even when the system is in perfect running order.

There is a very clear difference between an electromechanical system and a fully electronic system. In my car, the computer is simply relaying information, not judging and deciding. It is the recipient of the operator's inputs, not the originator of the operator's inputs.

EDIT: JetBadger said it with a lot fewer words! Basically, none of the systems you mention hinder the operator's direct control of the throttle, brakes, steering, or transmission.

As for the poll, I'd rather have a manual about 70% of the time, and have the automatic the rest of the time. Particularly on long trips to unfamiliar areas, or going to and from work.

 

[Keef]

...

 

[m4xwellmurd3r]

I'll take a car with ABS any day, because honestly, you can not brake that consistently, especially if the surface isn't perfect (and that is always)

I'd like to disagree with that. You can, it just takes a lot of practice. I can stop my stock 78 z from near any speed, with full brakes on wet or dry without locking. Though I will admit, I need to overhaul my brakes as I've found my drivers front is biting too hard.

I practice braking whenever the streets are empty because I don't want to be caught in an emergency with full lock brakes. I nearly crashed a car years ago because of that.

As for the poll, manual only. When I get lazy I stop using the clutch except for starting and stopping. Came in handy when my clutch slave failed.

Every auto I have owned blew up, and every auto I've driven makes me sleepy so I can't drive them. :/

maybe I'm just weird, but every time I drive I see it as a chance to practice shifting smoother and braking better.

 

[Moglet]

Manual. I like to be in total control of my car, thankyouverymuch. It's not hard to use a clutch repeatedly in traffic either, your leg only hurts a little unless you've got some super heavy clutch.

Pedal cars have 2 pedals too, same driving experience

 

[Keef]

I can stop my stock 78 z from near any speed

That's surprising actually.

with full brakes on wet or dry without locking.

Full brakes? Wow. You should probably...

overhaul my brakes

Any car's factory brake system should be powerful enough to easily lock the tires. If you're able to give the brake pedal all it's got and that doesn't happen, then something is seriously wrong with your brakes.

 

[Azuremen]

I'd like to disagree with that. You can, it just takes a lot of practice. I can stop my stock 78 z from near any speed, with full brakes on wet or dry without locking. Though I will admit, I need to overhaul my brakes as I've found my drivers front is biting too hard.

You can not match the ability of an ABS to individually modulate each brake as needed. And there has been more than enough testing on the subject to find very small benefits to not having ABS on a perfect tarmac surface, and then ABS out performing a driver in every sort of adverse condition.

 

[Joey D]

I don't understand why manual owners some how think those of us with autos are some how inherently out of control with our cars. I am very much in control of my car and if I so desire, I can even select whatever gear I want (although there is a dummy switch so you can't put your car into 1st doing 90mph). I've never felt a lack of control when driving an automatic, nor do I hate any of the driving aids that come on the car.

In regards to ABS, you'd be stupid not to have it as it's much safer then just you alone. The human mind acts a lot on instincts and unless you are a world class auto racer, you are probably going to have some panic if you need to stop in a hurry and may not be thinking about pumping the brakes...especially since most drivers aren't taught that now days.

Give me a car that's fun to drive but offers me the added safety net of driving aids. I am confident in my abilities but I know I'm no world class driver so having that stuff there when the time comes is handy.

 

[YSSMAN]

I'll take a car with ABS any day, because honestly, you can not brake that consistently, especially if the surface isn't perfect (and that is always)

As someone who has a car without ABS currently, I agree with you. I've been in some hairy situations due to weather, careless drivers, or even just a dirty road... And I've had my trousers browned multiple times because of it.



Back on topic...

While I would normally choose a manual, there are some well-designed automatics that I could live with on both a "normal" and "sporting" fashion.

 

[Zenith]

Great post Keef. With the exception of ABS, none of those are related to an automatic gearbox.

MatskiMonk and Sniffs, what you're proposing is pretty much a Nirvana fallacy. You're saying "If you're going to take the manual approach to shifting gears, then you must take the manual approach to shifting, steering, braking, and gear sync." but that's like saying "If you ever drive economically to get better gas mileage then you must buy a Prius."

Doesn't work

That said... I drive with no power steering, no ABS, and a gearbox with no reverse gear syncro.
(edit: THAT said, I almost ended up impaled on my steering column when my brakes locked up momentarily after some lady on the freeway decided to slam on the brakes at 80mph right in front of me to avoid a squirrel)

I don't understand why manual owners some how think those of us with autos are some how inherently out of control with our cars.

It's not that you are out of control of you car, but you are not controlling your car.

 

[gt4rulez]

manual for sure
it just keeps you busy while driving, i need to have something to do.

and id like to be in the right gear in every situation.

automatics cant do that.

i also drive heavy trucks and mobile cranes for my work. and even here i prefer the manual. even though in a large vehicle like that you must concentrate on other things and are busy for most of the time keeping it in the right path, especially on those tight roads we got here.

most automatics use the powerband of the engine well enough. or keep revs unneccesarily high when driving slow or when there is no need for it etc. ive driven alot of vehicles already, both automatics as manuals but most automatics dissapoint me.
the only automatic that did impress me so far was that of an Mercedes GL diesel, its very smooth and shifts quickly at the same time, you almost cant feel the gear changes. and it was always doing the right shifts.

abs is fine to me, especially in slippery conditions.

 

[Joey D]

It's not that you are out of control of you car, but you are not controlling your car.

I'm pretty sure I am controlling my car, otherwise I wouldn't even move. You can be just as in control of your vehicle with an automatic as you can with a manual, it's just a different kind of control. Saying you prefer one over the other because of the driving experience is something I can understand, saying you prefer a manual because you are more in control is just ridiculous.

manual for sure
it just keeps you busy while driving, i need to have something to do.

Uh watch the road? If you don't think you have enough to do while driving perhaps you shouldn't be driving in the first place.

and id like to be in the right gear in every situation.

automatics cant do that.

Pretty much all autos built in the past 20 years can have their gears selected for whatever situation, with most newer autos being far better at gear selection for a given condition.

 

[Danoff]

I'll have to vote automatic if the poll doesn't change. I've had this discussion at great detail with Famine, and I have to say that I consider the DSG to be an obviously superior gearbox to the manual. Famine will point out areas where the manual excels. The DSG excels in other ares.

More and more I think that those of you who are clinging to the manual/clutch are doing so out of some sort of antiquated sense of tradition or nostalgia. Some of you have a sense of what operating a car "ought" to be like. Others have a superman complex about how no machine can ever control the car better than they can (even though they obviously can). If your beef is that you can't downshift multiple gears as fast in a DSG as you can in your manual and that doing such a thing might buy you a faction of a second of engine braking (in otherwords, if you're Famine), I'm giving you a pass on this one. If your issue is that a car just ought to have 3 pedals and that's that, you're mired in some sort of nostalgia trip.

Valid reasons to like Manual over DSG:
- Cost (temporary)
- Maintenance
- Skipping gears on downshifts
- Reliability (temporary)

Invalid reasons to prefer a Manual to a DSG:
- Liking the extra pedal
- Enjoying grabbing a big stick and moving it a few inches
- Preventing boredom

Reasons to prefer a DSG to Manual:
- Precision
- Speed
- Control
- Consistency
- Stability
- Component wear
- Focus

 

[eSZee]

I prefer manual, though it would be easier if clutches were similar. I was driving my friend's G8 GXP, and while the engagement point was high like my car travel distance of the clutch was longer. I was embarrassing myself the whole drive home. Had to resort to my snappy, quarter mile shifting.

 

[Tornado]

I don't understand why manual owners some how think those of us with autos are some how inherently out of control with our cars.

I'm pretty sure I am controlling my car, otherwise I wouldn't even move. You can be just as in control of your vehicle with an automatic as you can with a manual, it's just a different kind of control. Saying you prefer one over the other because of the driving experience is something I can understand, saying you prefer a manual because you are more in control is just ridiculous.

Joey (and I say this with all the respect that is possible), are you really going to start this argument again?

 

[eSZee]

He has a point. 95% of manual drivers act like elitist pricks.

 

[Joey D]

Joey (and I say this with all the respect that is possible), are you really going to start this argument again?

It's a valid statement though. It's been mentioned already numerous times in this thread that somehow having a manual gives you control of your car, I'm sorry no matter how you say it that statement is just wrong. I have just as much control of my car as someone who owns a 5-speed Focus, we just have different forms of control.

Now saying you prefer a manual because you feel it's more fun or enhances the driving enjoyment, then I can't argue that. Some people find driving a manual fun and fun is definitely an unmeasurable quantity.

And really how is me defending the position of an automatic any different then someone defending the position of a manual? It's just my side of the argument is pointing out how absurd a statement is on the other side. I'm not saying anything ridiculous like a manual can't be fun.

He has a point. 95% of manual drivers act like elitist pricks.

It's only 95% of the manual drivers on the internet. Once you start talking to people in real life, they give significantly less of a 🤬. Although I do know some people that would say you aren't a real man unless you drive a manual....but they all drive beat-up, broken down Neons they got for $500 and can't be bothered to take care of them .

 

[Tornado]

It's a valid statement though. It's been mentioned already numerous times in this thread that somehow having a manual gives you control of your car, I'm sorry no matter how you say it that statement is just wrong.

Seriously, Joey? Seriously?


Read this. Again.

And really how is me defending the position of an automatic any different then someone defending the position of a manual?

Because you are saying things are subjective because you don't agree with them, when they aren't subjective in the first place and it is thus irrelevant whether you agree with them or not. Again.

 

[Joey D]

Seriously, Joey? Seriously?


Read this. Again.

I still don't agree with really anything he said.

Because you are saying things are subjective because you don't agree with them, when they aren't subjective in the first plus and it is thus irrelevant whether you agree with them or not. Again.

Amount of control isn't subjective, fun is though, so is driving enjoyment...but in no way is control subjective. If I some how had less control of my car with an auto I wouldn't be able to do everything a manual car could, and the truth is I can, just in a different way. I can change gears, a manual owner can change gears, we just do it in different ways.

Honestly are you just arguing to argue?

===

Everytime this subject is brought up, it makes me happy knowing that my kids won't have to deal with this BS because the manual will be extinct.

 

[Azuremen]

It's a valid statement though. It's been mentioned already numerous times in this thread that somehow having a manual gives you control of your car, I'm sorry no matter how you say it that statement is just wrong. I have just as much control of my car as someone who owns a 5-speed Focus, we just have different forms of control.

For the sake of argument, you do realize it does take longer for a torque converter automatic to respond to you flipping those silly paddles than it does for me to change gears?

In day to day driving, an automatic confers an acceptable level of control, but it doesn't grant the same as a manual with a clutch.

Amount of control isn't subjective, fun is though, so is driving enjoyment...but in no way is control subjective. If I some how had less control of my car with an auto I wouldn't be able to do everything a manual car could, and the truth is I can, just in a different way. I can change gears, a manual owner can change gears, we just do it in different ways.

Clutch kick. Another control you don't have in an automatic. If you want to argue you can emulate a clutch kick with a slush box, I'll just roll my eyes.

 

[JCE]

For commuting (slow, traffic light-to-traffic light, etc.): Automatic.
For weekend fun on a twisty road: Manual.

^ This.

The only time where I'd want an automatic for spirited driving is drag racing.

 

[Keef]

He has a point. 95% of manual drivers act like elitist pricks.

95% of football players act like elitist pricks. 95% of golfers act like elitist pricks. 95% of fine artists, or graphic designers, or computer programmers, or business owners, or anybody who possesses a skill that you don't acts like an elitist prick.

If everybody knew how to play golf we would all be elitist pricks and we'd just be one big asshole family.

 

[Joey D]

For the sake of argument, you do realize it does take longer for a torque converter automatic to respond to you flipping those silly paddles than it does for me to change gears?

In day to day driving, an automatic confers an acceptable level of control, but it doesn't grant the same as a manual with a clutch.

I do realise that with an older automatic you can't beat the speed of a manual driven by someone who isn't a putz. These new DSG's though could go either way depending on whether or not they a engineered correctly. And I totally agree, it's doesn't offer the same type of control either. No argument from me here on that.

Clutch kick. Another control you don't have in an automatic. If you want to argue you can emulate a clutch kick with a slush box, I'll just roll my eyes.

From a motorsport perspective I agree a manual would be better for a whole list of reasons. I probably should have specified that I'm talking about buying a car off a lot and just driving it.

I'm sure you could imitate a clutch kick by neutral dropping the car in a corner, but I'm guessing you'd probably either stall the car or completely destroy the trans.

 

[Azuremen]

I do realise that with an older automatic you can't beat the speed of a manual driven by someone who isn't a putz. These new DSG's though could go either way depending on whether or not they a engineered correctly. And I totally agree, it's doesn't offer the same type of control either. No argument from me here on that.

But you kind of were making that argument it seemed.

And I don't really consider a DSG an automatic as much as an automated manual.

From a motorsport perspective I agree a manual would be better for a whole list of reasons. I probably should have specified that I'm talking about buying a car off a lot and just driving it.

I'm sure you could imitate a clutch kick by neutral dropping the car in a corner, but I'm guessing you'd probably either stall the car or completely destroy the trans.

That and that. Basically.

 

[Dan_]

On a busy Monday traffic? Automatic.

On a epic scenic route towards the twisting roads on the mountains and then to the beach? A Manual.

Which type of commute do you do more frequently? So yes, Auto all the way.

 

[Crispy]

I'll have to vote automatic if the poll doesn't change. I've had this discussion at great detail with Famine, and I have to say that I consider the DSG to be an obviously superior gearbox to the manual. Famine will point out areas where the manual excels. The DSG excels in other ares.

More and more I think that those of you who are clinging to the manual/clutch are doing so out of some sort of antiquated sense of tradition or nostalgia. Some of you have a sense of what operating a car "ought" to be like. Others have a superman complex about how no machine can ever control the car better than they can (even though they obviously can). If your beef is that you can't downshift multiple gears as fast in a DSG as you can in your manual and that doing such a thing might buy you a faction of a second of engine braking (in otherwords, if you're Famine), I'm giving you a pass on this one. If your issue is that a car just ought to have 3 pedals and that's that, you're mired in some sort of nostalgia trip.

Valid reasons to like Manual over DSG:
- Cost (temporary)
- Maintenance
- Skipping gears on downshifts
- Reliability (temporary)

Invalid reasons to prefer a Manual to a DSG:
- Liking the extra pedal
- Enjoying grabbing a big stick and moving it a few inches
- Preventing boredom

Reasons to prefer a DSG to Manual:
- Precision
- Speed
- Control
- Consistency
- Stability
- Component wear
- Focus

Prevertness aside, I like Manual because I learned on it, and though it to be much more fun. Though I agree, during rush hour its best to have a manual.

 

[Zenith]

Sorry, but the stick thing is actually a valid reason. It's part of the whole "one with the machine" mentality. You may not agree with it, but it is still valid. It's a bit like acoustic guitars vs. electric guitars (leave out amps for this simile), sure an electric can make any noise the acoustic makes and then some, but some people still prefer acoustics for the raw simplicity of it. Nostalgia is not simplicity.

DSG preferences:

Precision Broad term, but I assume you mean you don't miss shifts, in which case I would respond with the fact that you have to shift down twice to go from 5th to 3rd.
Control Clutch+stick=more control. The end.
Consistency I don't understand...

This date will rage on for pages and pages and years and years. The points are all out there and those who have picked sides generally won't budge. Really all you can do at this point is present your preferences and reasons in the most attractive manner. I will drive a stick and clutch on the street no matter how fast DSG's get. If I were to race, I'd go DSG.

 

[Eric.]

and a gearbox with no reverse gear syncro.

Not a problem you hear about on a daily basis...