Automatic vs. Manual

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What type of transmission do you prefer in real life?

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Oh, and trying to move an auto up onto my sloped driveway without smashing through the garage door is a pain too. They either roll backwards too far and then fly forwards with too much speed or the clutch doesn't seem to want to kick in and you end up rolling backwards towards a busy road. Which is no fun.
 
the 3-4 shift is the power shift. Both gears are tall, and it's a straight shift down (unless you drive an old dogleg mercedes or something) so it's very quick and highly satisfying.
 
crispychicken49
@ wfooshee: Aren't sequential's operatred with a clutch?
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Answered earlier, I think, but yes, in both senses of "sequential." I don't know which you mean.

Sequential means gears selected in order, no direct selection of non-adjacent ratios. It does not mean push-button, no clutch to work. Motorcycles are exclusively sequential these days. They are manually operated, with the rider working the clutch and the shifter.

The previous use of "sequential" (which actually described a semi-automatic) also has a clutch, just an automatically controlled one. Whack the paddles and all the gizmos go to work to operate the clutch and shift the gears, and it disengages the clutch automatically when you stop.

Lots of things to worry about if you have one of those. It's bad enough on a manual system when hydraulics go out, the throwout bearing dies, whatever. If you have no hydraulics on a semi-auto, you're parked. It is possible to get a standard manual, whether sequential or H-pattern, to the shop without a working clutch if you have to. With a semi-auto you'll be getting towed.

Semi-auto has even entered the motorcycle world. If you're interested, check out the Yamaha FJR1300 AE (available 2006-2010) or the current Honda VFR 1200. The semi-auto hardware was an option on both bikes.
 
fitftw
the 3-4 shift is the power shift. Both gears are tall, and it's a straight shift down (unless you drive an old dogleg mercedes or something) so it's very quick and highly satisfying.
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Yep. That's why I love it. Even if my gear stick is located so high up on the dash it feels like you're grabbing for the radio controls.
 
Moglet
Yep. That's why I love it. Even if my gear stick is located so high up on the dash it feels like you're grabbing for the radio controls.
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That's a nice car you got there. Can't wait for them to make their way over here.
 
Moglet
Oh, and trying to move an auto up onto my sloped driveway without smashing through the garage door is a pain too. They either roll backwards too far and then fly forwards with too much speed or the clutch doesn't seem to want to kick in and you end up rolling backwards towards a busy road. Which is no fun.
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Are European automatics just monumentally 🤬? I've driven autos for most of my driving life and I've never had an issue with either of those things and I owned an '82 Oldsmobile Delta 88 for a while.

I'm still going to stand by the no type of transmission is any better or worse then any other transmission. It all comes down to what you like. Saying a manual is more fun is wrong, saying a manual is more fun for you, isn't. Same goes for a automatic, semi-auto, DSG, whatever else. As many people said, it's like saying a white car is somehow better then a silver car.
 
wfooshee
Answered earlier, I think, but yes, in both senses of "sequential." I don't know which you mean.

Sequential means gears selected in order, no direct selection of non-adjacent ratios. It does not mean push-button, no clutch to work. Motorcycles are exclusively sequential these days. They are manually operated, with the rider working the clutch and the shifter.

The previous use of "sequential" (which actually described a semi-automatic) also has a clutch, just an automatically controlled one. Whack the paddles and all the gizmos go to work to operate the clutch and shift the gears, and it disengages the clutch automatically when you stop.

Lots of things to worry about if you have one of those. It's bad enough on a manual system when hydraulics go out, the throwout bearing dies, whatever. If you have no hydraulics on a semi-auto, you're parked. It is possible to get a standard manual, whether sequential or H-pattern, to the shop without a working clutch if you have to. With a semi-auto you'll be getting towed.

Semi-auto has even entered the motorcycle world. If you're interested, check out the Yamaha FJR1300 AE (available 2006-2010) or the current Honda VFR 1200. The semi-auto hardware was an option on both bikes.
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Many ATVs are (were? I don't keep up anymore and it seems CVTs were replacing everything fast) a semi-auto that is clutchless, you just shift with your foot.
 
Joey D
Are European automatics just monumentally 🤬? I've driven autos for most of my driving life and I've never had an issue with either of those things and I owned an '82 Oldsmobile Delta 88 for a while.
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Possibly. I know that Fiat's 'Dualogic' sequential is a nightmare. I've only ever driven a few autos/semi-autos, mostly my girlfriend's Aygo. I just couldn't live with it after driving a manual for so long. I'm sure there are some really good ones out there, but we don't see anywhere near as many autos in the UK as the US does and we usually have to pay a lot more for an auto box, too.
 
eSZee
You got all that from me wishing you left?
So not only do you know how your car feels, you're also a carnival mind reader?(ie full of crappola)
This thread as well as the miata one have been more or less hindered by your ongoing barrage of almost aimless banter.

Azure and the others are somehow able to stick to the topic of both threads and deal with what is given, while you come out signing serenades to your car and thinking of how your life would be empty without it.

You're the epitome of a "fanboy". Everything that you have a the current time is the greatest thing in the universe and everything else is garbage. I've dealt with too many people like you to get sucked into this any further.



There was only one merc model with 2 different trims that had a dog leg trans.

Do you have a shrine dedicated to Top Gear? Reading your posts is almost like re-watching top gear episodes through words.
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great post. And I do love top gear :sly:
 
homeforsummer
My personal issue with your arguement - an arguement I otherwise largely agree with - is that you always come back to the "process of actually driving the car rather than operating a transmission" line, which always seems to imply that you have to make a conscious effort to shift manually, when in reality it's a process that once familiar with you need give no more conscious attention than you do to steering, braking or throttle control. It's simply another aspect of driving a car.
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Yea, eventually you get familiar enough with it that it takes no conscious effort. But that doesn't make it "simply another aspect of driving the car", that makes it something you're not thinking about. You can get really good at a lot of things - to the point where you can do them from muscle memory. I could put in the Konami code with a standard NES controller while steering the car with my knees and it probably wouldn't require much conscious effort (to do the code, I'm not that good with my knees). The point is that getting good at it doesn't mean anything - it's still just manipulating a transmission, it's not fundamentally driving.

I'm not trying to imply that you're thinking about it or have to concentrate on it. I'm implying that it is outside of commanding the movement of the car. It's an extra step.
 
I think the hyperbole about automatics is a tad overstated... Perhaps they were much worse in years past, but I can't say I find the slushbox in the Corolla to be that bad. It's a very short delay to downshift when I floor it, but I find it quite responsive. The other slushbox I've driven, the one in the Buick Enclave, is even better. I find it responsive and it downshifts very quickly when you step on the gas to pass or merge. There's also a sequential over ride (hella slow), but I usually don't need it.

The VW Golf on the other hand, the DSG in that car is phenomenal. It's the best of both worlds, for my mom who doesn't care about maximizing her powerband and whatnot, she can keep it in D and just drive the way she likes an automatic to work. When myself or my dad drive, we can shift the knob over to the right, and put in tiptronic mode. The box in that car is very very quick to shift, and it's great to keep the car in the 2k-3.5k sweet spot. However, when I'm stuck in traffic, I can always flick it over to D and putt along.

I think the DSG and other semi-automatic gearboxes are superior to manuals in terms of performance, but if you enjoy a manual, more power to you 👍. if you find a manual fun, that's reason enough to buy one, but the DSG and other semi automatic gearboxes just streamline the process of driving.
 
DSGs are fantastic in most uses, but only when they give you total control... some don't. And they sometimes take a hell of a long time downshifting multiple gears when you're braking down from high speed.

CVTs are the ultimate transmission in terms of being in the right place at the right time, but this is dependent on the CVT in particular... and most, with the exception of Nissan's, can't take a lot of torque.

Eric.
1) Hybrids are fun?
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Prius. Roundabout. Tuck and lift. Whee.
 
Yeah yeah...but that has nothing to do with the transmission! :lol:
 
niky

CVTs are the ultimate transmission in terms of being in the right place at the right time, but this is dependent on the CVT in particular... and most, with the exception of Nissan's, can't take a lot of torque.
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CVT's are in my experience absoluitely rubbish.

IN theory, being able to keep you car at an optimum rev point sounds great... in practice they are bloody awful!
 
CVTs certainly have their place in hybrids and electric cars, where the computer can finely control both the engine/motor and the transmission for the best economy.
 
Stick shift. Without a doubt. Whether it's a hot rod car, or a daily driver I love driving a four speed too much to go with anything else. When I bought my '71 it had a TH400, but I promptly pulled that out and replaced it with a Super T-10. When I got my first M22 together I put that in. I briefly went back to a Super T with a 3.42 1st gear, now I am back with the M22. When I get my LS7 in the car I am going to put a Ford Toploader in it.

To me an automatic is absolutely no fun. I always have to listen to people tell me how much faster an automatic is at shifting. Sure, they may be a hair faster, but when I am nailing gears as hard as I can there is very little difference in sound between shifts with an automatic and my four speed.
 
yeah I definitely shift faster than an automatic. Then again my car has one of the best gearboxes in the industry.
 
fitftw
yeah I definitely shift faster than an automatic. Then again my car has one of the best gearboxes in the industry.
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With older automatics in day to day use, yes you probably do shift faster if you aren't a complete putz behind the wheel. In a drag race application I'm not so sure, I've often been told that with drag racing an automatic will be better than a traditional manual (ratchet shift will probably beat an auto).

With newer automatics there is no way you can shift as fast. My car's computer would out shift most humans with a 5-speed Focus.
 
I've always understood the reason autos are faster for drag is that they can launch better (as well as consistently, for bracket racing). Longer gears (on average) probably helps a little bit also.
 
The main reason is consistency, and slushboxes have it all across the board from launch characteristics to shift times, etc. They're not perfect, but they typically don't miss shifts like a manual driver who is frantically trying to keep his 1500 horsepower car going straight while moving both his feet and shifting gears.

High torque converter stall speeds acts similarly to a CVT, in that the revs stay high while the wet clutches inside the transmission slip until the car's speed matches the engine's speed. That way you can transfer as much power as possible at any given time. In some cases the rpm of the engine hardly changes and it sounds just like a CVT. Obviously the more you abuse your parts the sooner they wear out.
 
Keef
High torque converter stall speeds acts similarly to a CVT, in that the revs stay high while the wet clutches inside the transmission slip until the car's speed matches the engine's speed. That way you can transfer as much power as possible at any given time. In some cases the rpm of the engine hardly changes and it sounds just like a CVT. Obviously the more you abuse your parts the sooner they wear out.
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nope.avi

The torque converter itself slips, not the clutches. It also multiplies torque in the process.
 
Stotty
CVT's are in my experience absoluitely rubbish.

IN theory, being able to keep you car at an optimum rev point sounds great... in practice they are bloody awful!
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Varies from car to car. Obviously, they sound bloody awful, whether they work well or not, but on some cars, they work well. I've driven some CVTs that get you to torque peak in no time flat and stick at the hp peak from highway minimum to twice legal. And with "L" mode, you can lock it at that hp peak rpm, which is great for lift-off oversteer... but also great for staying in the proper rev range for corner exit.

Other CVTs, with paddle shifters, mimic 6 or 7 speed boxes very well... no shift delay at all, instant downshift response. Not quite as good as a dual clutch box, but they don't clunk on downshifts or provide upsetting spikes of torque when the clutches re-engage (since they don't disengage in the first place)...

CVT isn't really perfect for high performance... I haven't seen one yet, not even Nissan's mechanical one, that can take big-bore V8 power like a slushbox... and the drone is just awful, but they work... at least some of them.

Only problem is... with manufacturers now able to make 6-speed conventional autoboxes for small cars, and 7-8 speed boxes for bigger cars, the advantage of CVTs is becoming smaller and smaller.
 
Joey D
With older automatics in day to day use, yes you probably do shift faster if you aren't a complete putz behind the wheel. In a drag race application I'm not so sure, I've often been told that with drag racing an automatic will be better than a traditional manual (ratchet shift will probably beat an auto).

With newer automatics there is no way you can shift as fast. My car's computer would out shift most humans with a 5-speed Focus.
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Nailed it.

Although, there is much respect for those drag racers who can nail a sub 9-second pass in the QTR w/ a 6-speed. Lots of skill there.
 
Eric.
I've always understood the reason autos are faster for drag is that they can launch better (as well as consistently, for bracket racing). Longer gears (on average) probably helps a little bit also.
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I wouldn't say that automatics launch better. There are a couple advantages to running a torque convertor, of that I can't argue. One is ,if you have the proper stall in the convertor, it will flash to your engines peak torque as you are coming off the line. Also, if you load up the convertor by way of foot breaking the shock to the rest of the drive train is so much less than with that of a stick shift. A torque convertor ,no matter how tight, will always have some slippage occuring. The only time the clutch slips with a stick shift is when you are coming off the line.

That's why stick cars try to get every bit they can out of first gear. Most drag cars I've seen have first gears in the neighborhood of 12:1, some are as low as 14:1.

On to shifting as fast as an automatic. Have you seen guys that power shift? When you have guys who can hold their foot to the floor and bang gears without hearing any audible increase in RPM you had better believe they are every bit as fast as an automatic. Even with the little bit looser consistency I'd take a four gear over an automatic any day. No fun dropping it in drive, and if you've got a manual valve body it just isn't the same.
 
You just said they don't launch better and then go on to give reasons as to why they do in fact launch better...

@Keef: :lol:
 
Eric.
You just said they don't launch better and then go on to give reasons as to why they do in fact launch better...

@Keef: :lol:
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I said they launch easier. I suppose it is a bit of a help to flash to the engines peak torque range, however a stick car with a 12-13:1 first gear is going to get up to 3500 ,or so, RPM pretty quick. The serious stick car drivers want the 1-2 shift to be happening before the 60 foot mark.
 
That really depends on, well...everything. If your car has plenty of low end torque and pulls all the way to redline too, having a first gear that goes 60mph means it won't just annihilate the tires like it would with a first gear only going 40mph or something. Something with a narrow powerband would benefit from tighter gearing to stay in that rev range though.
 
Automatics don't need a massive 1st ratio because torque converters multiply torque, usually around 2:1 while being flashed, and slippage isn't a massive loss. So an automatic with a stall speed at peak torque will need roughly half the overall ratio of a manual and still have more torque on initial launch.
 
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