Automatic vs. Manual

[homeforsummer]

I have mechanical empathy.

You understand your car's feelings?

 

[Danoff]

You don't have to kill a clutch to not stall a car.

Good thing I didn't say that.

 

[fitftw]

I know people with 200k on the stock clutch. I also know people who only got 50k because they aren't great drivers. It all depends on the person and their driving style.

 

[wfooshee]

So, I'm voting for manual. CLUTCHLESS manual, that's also called sequental.
Damn, what idiot put the hardest and the easiest (in plan of driving) transmission types in one group!? (trolls, go out - I was oriented on that list)
Just look how much differences they have:
Manual has clutch pedal (curse it) - Sequental hasn't.
Manual has separate section for each gear - in sequental you just need to move shift stick up/down.
Let's look on parking:
Sequental:
Pressing gas pedal, clicking 2 times with shift stick, pressing gas pedal, clicking 2 times with shift stick in opposite side, repeat until successfully parked. Easy, huh? (parking with automatic transmission is a bit different, but as easy as parking with sequental)
Manual:
Pressing gas pedal, pressing and holding clutch pedal, moving shift stick in oppposite edge, only then releasing clutch pedal, pressing gas pedal, pressing and holding clutch pedal, moving shift stick in oppposite edge, only then releasing clutch pedal, repeat until you're parked your car. One mistake - have problems.
Also, if you need to stop fast on icy road you must to hold brake pedal and move gears down, ONE AFTER ONE. Again, using manual transmission is the most FFFFFFFrUUUUUUUstrating. One mistake - have problems.
And the weakest point on the forums like that - racing. Racing on fast car, no matter if it's Mercedes C-class touring car on Laguna Seca or Lamborghini Cala on the forest road. And again, manual transmission is your enemy. And again, one mistake - have problems.
I have to say only one thing - WHY THE F-- THEY'RE IN ONE GROUP!? WHY THE F--!?
I love sequental transmission as much as I hate manual. But WHY THE F-- most of the car manufacturers still prefer manual/automatic to sequental!?

PS: Cars driving themselves? I do not want them. Make these cars for elite or lasy guys, but let driveable cars survive.

Small point of definition . . . . "Clutchless manual" is semi-automatic, not sequential.

It operates sequentially at the control because you push an upshift or downshift button, then the tranny is shifted by automatic mechanical control and the clutch is operated by automatic mechanical control.

A sequential transmission is what you find in a motorcycle, most race cars these days, and a few passenger cars. There are no synchronizers in a sequential gearbox, and the shift forks are operated by a rotating shift drum that is turned one way or the other by a ratcheted shift lever. The shifting operation, and clutch operation, are direct mechanical links to driver-operated lever and pedal.

The flappy-paddle shifter that you are calling sequential is more correctly called semi-automatic because the mechanical operation is handled by servo controls, the driver simply tells the system "shift up" or "shift down" by using the paddles. He doesn't actually operate the gearbox or clutch. Unlike a real automatic transmission it doesn't shift until the driver tells it to (thus semi-automatic,) although many of the systems available can be programmed to do so.

So what you're calling a "manual" is the traditional H-pattern shifter with the clutch pedal. A sequential transmission could just as easily be a manual, with a clutch pedal or lever, as found in Indy cars, Grand-Am Daytona Prototypes, LeMans cars, etc. Sequential gearboxes, completely manual.

As to the rest of your . . . . . post . . . .

I've never had an issue parking my manual cars. I've never had an issue downshifting as I slowed down, good grip or not. Any grip issue would have been present no matter the gearbox. If you can't smoothly downshift a manual in poor grip conditions, then you can't operate a manual correctly.

As to three pedals and two feet, that's also not an issue. It's quite simple on most traditional manuals to heel/toe the downshifts, operating brake and throttle simultaneously with the right foot, and clutch with the left. Yes, it's more "work" than whacking a button for the downshift, but it's infinitely more satisfying and enjoyable.

You keep saying "one mistake, big problems." The only mistake I can think of that you'd mean is sloppy shifting, which is just poor operation and easily overcome.

My own personal order of preference is traditional 3-pedal manual, semi-auto manual, and traditional automatic.

I hate that I can't squeeze just a bit more throttle without getting a downshift on an automatic. I didn't really want a downshift, I just needed a tiny bit more gas for just a couple seconds.

OTOH, I hate traffic jams in a traditional manual.

On your basic point, though, the poll should have semi-auto as a choice.

 

[fitftw]

I hate that I can't squeeze just a bit more throttle without getting a downshift on an automatic. I didn't really want a downshift, I just needed a tiny bit more gas for just a couple seconds.

OTOH, I hate traffic jams in a traditional manual.

That's exactly why I hate automatics as well. I don't like not having complete control over my car. It makes me very uncomfortable.

I don't mind traffic jams in a stick. I just don't move up until there's a good 3 or 4 car lengths in front of me.

 

[Eric.]

Yea, they're probably either bored or miserable.

Driver to Team Owner: Man the car should would be more fun if we turned off the traction control and dialed in a little more oversteer, what do ya think? And I personally prefer manuals over this fancy F1 gearbox, so if you don't mind me losing a couple tenths per lap because of it that would be more fun for me, ok?

Owner to Driver: You're fired.

 

[fitftw]

nobody here said that manuals are slower than automatics (although for production cars, this is almost ALWAYS false. Who here drives an F1 car ANYWAY?)

I'm only saying that manuals are more enjoyable. If you like having a computer think for you and TELL you what gear it's going to put you in, like you're its BITCH, then go ahead. I don't appreciate being thrown into gear unwillingly. An automatic is like someone trying to guess what you'd like to do today. How the hell would it know? It doesn't. You want to be in 3rd? Tough luck I just threw you into 4th haha now you have to floor it to go back to 3rd, and as soon as you let up on the gas a tiny bit, I'm throwing you back into 4th mwahaahahh automatics can all go to hell.

 

[Sonic ZR1]

On your basic point, though, the poll should have semi-auto as a choice.

I forgot about it, but I don't able to edit poll...

Small point of definition . . . . "Clutchless manual" is semi-automatic, not sequential.

*blah-blah-blah bout differencfes between semi-automatic and sequental transmission*

So what you're calling a "manual" is the traditional H-pattern shifter with the clutch pedal.

Capt. Obvious, you're not in time...

You keep saying "one mistake, big problems."

One mistake - HAVE problems. Not big, of course.

__________________________________

PS: Looks like I'm an idiot...

 

[Crispy]

Lol! I respect men that drive effeminate small convertibles less than people that drive proper cars... but that's not that important now either. Cars are fun for many more reasons than just changing gear! I pity you if the only satisfaction you get from driving is from moving the gearstick around -- I drive my car for pleasure too, rather than simply out of necessity, and I have lots of fun while I'm at it. It's got nothing to do with can or can't, I've been driving a manual since I first passed my driving test, but I've had auto's as well, and am totally comfortable with either.

I think what he means by more fun, is not that pushing an extra pedal, or moving a stick is more fun. Just the sense of more control so that, when the time is given, you can put your foot to the floor, or do something, that in an automatic, would be much harder to do without the computer delaying the time to shift, whereas in a manual, you could shift anytime you want. In heavy, heavy traffic, I can understand how an automatic is more easier, as long as your stopping and going every 30 seconds every day. But where I live, a manual is more fun, the speed limits aren't outrageous, and the number of s-bends here is unbelievable. Which is where I think manual is more fun.

EDIT: @ wfooshee: Aren't sequential's operatred with a clutch?

I know DSG's found in modern super cars are bitches to own. My friend owned an M5 (SMG) for one year. In that year, he had to replace the hydraulics that operate the clutch 3 times!

 

[Mike0105]

I know DSG's found in modern super cars are bitches to own. My friend owned an M5 (SMG) for one year. In that year, he had to replace the hydraulics that operate the clutch 3 times!

BMW SMG is a single clutch system, an older style and not considered to be great. A VW DSG is a twin clutch, that is very clever in how it works, but they ate not perfect. The 7 speed DSG is actually worse than the 6 speed according to many.

BMW now has it's own twin clutch, think it is called DCT, Porsche has PDK and so on.

I believe they still all have an auto overide on them, meaning if it thinks you should be in another gear and the car is at risk of damage if you don't, it will shift for you. Clever and all, but it's still not a manual

 

[Crispy]

Also, if you need to stop fast on icy road you must to hold brake pedal and move gears down, ONE AFTER ONE. Again, using manual transmission is the most FFFFFFFrUUUUUUUstrating. One mistake - have problems.

No, you just go into neutral until you stopped.

I love sequental transmission as much as I hate manual. But WHY THE F-- most of the car manufacturers still prefer manual/automatic to sequental!?

Because its cheaper, and a real sequential is still has a clutch. If your talking about DCT, or DSG, or SMG, then thats even more expensive than an Automatic, and are really only found in high-performance cars, with a few exceptions.

PS: Cars driving themselves? I do not want them. Make these cars for elite or lasy guys, but let driveable cars survive.[/QUOTE]

 

[Danoff]

Driver to Team Owner: Man the car should would be more fun if we turned off the traction control and dialed in a little more oversteer, what do ya think? And I personally prefer manuals over this fancy F1 gearbox, so if you don't mind me losing a couple tenths per lap because of it that would be more fun for me, ok?

Owner to Driver: You're fired.

Now you're just digging in for no reason. You're not helping your case, and you don't really want to argue it.

Clever and all, but it's still not a manual

It is manual, but it's not "a" manual, and that was the point.

 

[Mike0105]

It is manual, but it's not "a" manual, and that was the point.

Is a robotised manual still a manual though?

It kind of is because it's user controllable, but it kind of isn't because it has the final say in the matter (it will override you if it wants/needs to).

You don't change the gears, you tell the box to do it for you.

I will stick to semi-automatic to define it .

 

[Eric.]

nobody here said that manuals are slower than automatics (although for production cars, this is almost ALWAYS false. Who here drives an F1 car ANYWAY?)

If that was in response to me, I'm only considering non-torque-converter autos (which are DSGs, F1 style boxes, etc only). And generally they are all faster.

 

[Danoff]

Is a robotised manual still a manual though?

It kind of is because it's user controllable, but it kind of isn't because it has the final say in the matter (it will override you if it wants/needs to).

You don't change the gears, you tell the box to do it for you.

I will stick to semi-automatic to define it .

Ok, but the point is that the semi-automatic is designed to improve your driving experience because the manual is unnecessarily complex. You can have all of the control you care about and none of the downside.

The clutch is a superfluous control that really can only be screwed up by the driver (unless you're considering cases where the car is severely broken, and I don't think we are). The gear lever is in a poor location in the car, and better suited for driving if the driver doesn't have to take his hand off the wheel. Thus, the paddle shifted clutch-less manual (SMG, DSG, PDK, etc.) was born... and by clutch-less I mean non-user-operated.

This is an engineering solution to a poor interface, and it is objectively superior. It provides manual control over which gear the car is in with an improved, simplified interface that allows the driver to further immerse himself in the process of actually driving the car (rather than operating a transmission). CVT, of course, would be another engineering solution.

 

[Eric.]

You know, you're about the only one who argues everything in the sake of engineering.

In an opinion thread, this is akin to polling what everyone's favorite color car is, and you saying that white is the best as a fact because it reduces car temperatures during the summer and thus is the solution to global warming and that black cars are inferior.

 

[Mike0105]

You know, you're about the only one who argues everything in the sake of engineering.

In an opinion thread, this is akin to polling what everyone's favorite color car is, and you saying that white is the best as a fact because it reduces car temperatures during the summer and thus is the solution to global warming and that black cars are inferior.

Whoops, my new car is black. And has a black leather interior. Double trouble for the environment.

But I agree, this is all subjective. I believe I said it before in this thread, all options are good as long as they suit you, the driver.

That's really all that can be said on the matter. We can argue until the cows come home, but it really doesn't matter. I like manuals, others like semi-auto's and some like full auto's.

 

[Eric.]

Whoops, my new car is black. And has a black leather interior. Double trouble for the environment.

And you'll never keep it clean.

 

[Zenith]

You know, you're about the only one who argues everything in the sake of engineering.

In an opinion thread, this is akin to polling what everyone's favorite color car is, and you saying that white is the best as a fact because it reduces car temperatures during the summer and thus is the solution to global warming and that black cars are inferior.

Freaking this.

I thought we were discussing what everyone preferred.

 

[Danoff]

You know, you're about the only one who argues everything in the sake of engineering.

In an opinion thread, this is akin to polling what everyone's favorite color car is, and you saying that white is the best as a fact because it reduces car temperatures during the summer and thus is the solution to global warming and that black cars are inferior.

Personal preferences can't be based on rational thought?

 

[fitftw]

define rational. You must realize by now that this life and everything in it holds no real meaning or truth, right? There is no rational thought. Only thoughts, neither rational nor irrational.

 

[MatskiMonk]

define rational. You must realize by now that this life and everything in it holds no real meaning or truth, right?

WOW, I tune out for a page or two, when I come back we're debating the fundamentals of Life and existence... this is deep... well, I'm happy enough with life and everything in it as long as it has a sport mode, an economy mode, and a winter mode

Anyway...

 

[Eric.]

If everything we did regarding cars had to be rational, we'd all be driving Nissan Leaf's, Chevy Volt's, or Toyota Prius's, depending on how long our commute was.

 

[fitftw]

I like my cars to have as few electronics as possible. No aids or power anything. Manual everything.

 

[homeforsummer]

Personal preferences can't be based on rational thought?

My personal issue with your arguement - an arguement I otherwise largely agree with - is that you always come back to the "process of actually driving the car rather than operating a transmission" line, which always seems to imply that you have to make a conscious effort to shift manually, when in reality it's a process that once familiar with you need give no more conscious attention than you do to steering, braking or throttle control. It's simply another aspect of driving a car.

I'm not sure whether you're intentionally implying that or whether I'm just misinterpreting.

I'd tend to agree with your line of arguement, but I don't subscribe to the theory that operating a transmission is somehow distracting or requires additional thinking. I've driven both manual transmission and DSG vehicles on a track, and I can tell you that priorities number one and two on track are picking braking points and picking turn-in points. I've never had to give shifting gears any conscious attention - it was just something I did regardless.

 

[eSZee]

Sounds like jealousy.

You got all that from me wishing you left?
So not only do you know how your car feels, you're also a carnival mind reader?(ie full of crappola)
This thread as well as the miata one have been more or less hindered by your ongoing barrage of almost aimless banter.

Azure and the others are somehow able to stick to the topic of both threads and deal with what is given, while you come out signing serenades to your car and thinking of how your life would be empty without it.

You're the epitome of a "fanboy". Everything that you have a the current time is the greatest thing in the universe and everything else is garbage. I've dealt with too many people like you to get sucked into this any further.

unless you drive an old dogleg mercedes or something)

There was only one merc model with 2 different trims that had a dog leg trans.

Do you have a shrine dedicated to Top Gear? Reading your posts is almost like re-watching top gear episodes through words.

 

[Moglet]

I'd like to expand upon my previous post. If a car had a 'flappy paddle' type gearbox that was anywhere near as good as the one I used in a Gallardo I'd happily have one. But a full auto? Nope. My girlfriend has one in her car (Toyota) and it's bloody terrible. It just doesn't want to change gears. Ever. Especially on the motorway.

While I've dropped it a gear and overtaken, she's pulled out and the car is still showing 5th some loving while she has an Audi up her chuff. Switching to semi manual is no better, the changes are nowhere near as smooth as they should be.

I've also got this thing for shifting from 3rd-4th that makes me all warm and fuzzy every time.

 

[Mike0105]

And you'll never keep it clean.

Tell me about it. Showing it of to family at the weekend, that's £5 for the handwash place and an hour of hoovering inside!

 

[Mike0105]

I've also got this thing for shifting from 3rd-4th that makes me all warm and fuzzy every time.

It's probably irrational and silly to some, but it is so true. It is a great feeling.

 

[Famine]

The clutch is a superfluous control that really can only be screwed up by the driver

It's worth a note that the clutch in a two-pedal car is an on-off switch - it's either engaged or, for fractions of a second at a time, disengaged. In a three-pedal car it's another analogue control device and this has a time and a place to be exploited which two-pedal cars lack - or you can simply ape a two-pedal car by banging it in and out like a footpump.


Also I think the previous thread was better.