Back to GT5 from Shift 2 things I learned

Yesterday night I had one of the most memorable experiences in my "sim" driving career behind the wheel of a Lancia Delta HF Integrale at Zolder where I nearly finsihed 2nd behind a superior AI, but a slight impact with another car (I think it was an M3 E30) made me hit the wall and flip the car just yards before the chequered flag. This I think is a vastly more visceral experience than the sterile one you get driving in GT5 (although I do love that game as well).

I love how if you do manage to pull out a big lead on the AI, every corner, kerb and bump is a heart in mouth affair knowing that a small mistake could result in a big accident wrecking your race. It keeps the adrenaline going right to the line.

I like also how it is so easy to adjust how challenging it is. If you take a car which is just a few power points into a class you end up fighting wheel to wheel for somewhere between 5th & 3rd place :) and getting a real buzz if you get a podium spot! That's what racing is about for me.

I've actually fallen asleep while racing in GT5! :ill:

I played this game for 5 or 6 hours. I already was done after 3 hours. I gave it a second chance but it did not take.

That's not enough time to get the best out of it. Much like in real life, it takes a lot longer to develop your skills to get the most out of it. I felt the same as you at first, but now the game never leaves the PS3
 
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Honestly, I really couldn't stomach Shift 2. Think I returned it to the shop the next day after I brought it.

Even after spending ages tweaking the controls, the whole handling and physics engine were completely off. Also, the graphics were pretty poor, especially with the amount of motion blur they put in the game.

That said, I think PD could learn a thing or two from the Shift 2 and Forza developers. That being from the functionality and game structure side of things. GT unfortunately just lacks in this respect and is beaten quite comfortably by these other games. Driving though, GT is the clear winner for me.

Thats why I think it would be a good idea to have another producer to work alongside Kaz. Kaz for his car knowledge, attention to detail and for the passion he adds to the series. The other producer just to provide focus and stability.
 
Unfortunately PD will never change their A-Spec disaster... Totaly boring races... You can take every car and tire you want, no restrictions, no rules, no damage, no tire wear, no fuel...no challenge... nothing... You start last or on #7 and try to get on first place in 3 laps (wich is always too easy)... You got to try tens of cars to find a good car that makes the race difficult... GT5 A-Spec and the features are really so poor and simple, no innovation, nothing...
Something is wrong here, because this is patently untrue unless you only raced in the very first level or two and quit. Or only raced Arcade Mode. Also, the searching through "tens of cars," I've only had to run through two or three to get something competitive. If you went through twenty or thirty cars, you're picking through a pretty narrow PP range, and who's fault is that?

You are right though that A-Spec and B-Spec both are way too short, way too simple considering it's just the usual GT formula but with very few races. Some "series" are only one race long! And often, the tracks have little or nothing to do with the subject of the race. Even worse, out of the wide number of tracks available for events, PD chose only a select portion of them. Many tracks are completely unused.

Considering that Kazunori has begged forgiveness from the fans on a number of points, I'd say he does want to make amends in GT5 if he can, and definitely in GT6. I don't know if they're going to give us some simulation style pro racing in GT6 or some additional GT5 events, but many of us are asking. And just remember the whole rollercoaster of the damage implementation before anyone says that PD doesn't listen to their fans.

T10 and EA did a good job on their career mode. EA knows such things really good. I´ve driven a few laps and there were so many great features in Shift2. It shows the lap times of your friends and much more great things.
Jeepers, is this ever something I disagree with. Saying that Shift has a decent stat structure for comparing performance with your friends is sure a LONG way from saying they know how to make a good career mode. From what I gather, Shift's career modes are rather like Toca's, which is okay, but hardly what I call a great career mode. Likewise Forza, especially with F3's "choose your own adventure" path which is an extension once again of Toca's, and race 20 or so events when the "season" ends and you start over. Admittedly I never used it, jumping out to picking races from the selection grid in the order I wanted. They no doubt are much longer than GT5's "career" - Forza 3's 20 race "season" aside, use all or most of the tracks in the game, but really aren't much different otherwise.

Kaz could learn a few things from Forza, though mainly the excellent Storefront and Livery Editor which T10 tacked onto the GT concept. And frankly without them, Forza is just another racer to me. And they could look at real life motorsports more closely, of how racing careers are structured, rules are set, and stats are tracked. I would like to see a series of more real life careers in GT6, with rules from many types of racing, and this could run alongside GT and Arcade Modes so you could always go back to old school sandbox xtyle GT racing.
 
I really believe GT5 has the potential of great AI already. If you raced a non broken in FGT in the FGT championship(or if the AI had the same hp as you), you will witness some very fine clean races. In Shift 2, the only thing they have going is the AI is a dirty driver that will ram you off the road. Heck in 1 in 8 races one of the AIs will miss a curve and crash their car, so they aren't driving great so much that they are so aggressive they are dirty.

Plus the driving physics are so bad it is frustrating to drive the fast supercars.

i kinda wish gt5's ai would make mistakes, i mean no one is perfect but the position they start in is usually the position they finish, the ai just laps the track on the line and avoids you if you get close, i wouldn't mind a dirty ai driver here and there that rushes me on the inside or late brakes.
 
I really believe GT5 has the potential of great AI already. If you raced a non broken in FGT in the FGT championship(or if the AI had the same hp as you), you will witness some very fine clean races.
I disagree with this. The A.I. is just as bad in the FGT as any other car. Whenever you get close, they slow down as if they are waving you by. If you make the mistake of being behind them approaching a braking zone you will ram them every time as they slow down way too much. Most of the races it only takes a few laps to get to the front, which I suppose is better than every other a-spec race where it takes one turn. The A.I. do a good job at applying pressure once behind. They just can't handle having you behind them.

Honestly, I'd rather have A.I. that runs the driving line and only veers from it when you have made it along side them. Also having A.I. that battle each other for position would be nice but I can live without that.
 
The undeniable thing is that GT5 is BORING compared to Shift2, they encourage you to feel what it's actually like to RACE (magic word here) not to DRIVE. They might give you the same idea but that's what a dictionary is for?

Disagree.

- Number of Cars, not matter that it have too many skylines.
- A lot better physics.
- Drifting acting as it should be, plus with a strong drifting online community.

Nuff said... GT5 is a game for years, Shift 2 is a game for weeks.

Yes, exactly.

Shift 2 physics 👎 , patches came and have gone, no real fix. It was fun for a couple of weeks, till you get to faster cars.
 
The AI in the real world seasonal is better. I do a lot of Nürburgring races there and the Minolta will not back off when you pressure it.
 
Something is wrong here, because this is patently untrue unless you only raced in the very first level or two and quit. Or only raced Arcade Mode. Also, the searching through "tens of cars," I've only had to run through two or three to get something competitive. If you went through twenty or thirty cars, you're picking through a pretty narrow PP range, and who's fault is that?

You are right though that A-Spec and B-Spec both are way too short, way too simple considering it's just the usual GT formula but with very few races. Some "series" are only one race long! And often, the tracks have little or nothing to do with the subject of the race. Even worse, out of the wide number of tracks available for events, PD chose only a select portion of them. Many tracks are completely unused.

Considering that Kazunori has begged forgiveness from the fans on a number of points, I'd say he does want to make amends in GT5 if he can, and definitely in GT6. I don't know if they're going to give us some simulation style pro racing in GT6 or some additional GT5 events, but many of us are asking. And just remember the whole rollercoaster of the damage implementation before anyone says that PD doesn't listen to their fans.


Jeepers, is this ever something I disagree with. Saying that Shift has a decent stat structure for comparing performance with your friends is sure a LONG way from saying they know how to make a good career mode. From what I gather, Shift's career modes are rather like Toca's, which is okay, but hardly what I call a great career mode. Likewise Forza, especially with F3's "choose your own adventure" path which is an extension once again of Toca's, and race 20 or so events when the "season" ends and you start over. Admittedly I never used it, jumping out to picking races from the selection grid in the order I wanted. They no doubt are much longer than GT5's "career" - Forza 3's 20 race "season" aside, use all or most of the tracks in the game, but really aren't much different otherwise.

Kaz could learn a few things from Forza, though mainly the excellent Storefront and Livery Editor which T10 tacked onto the GT concept. And frankly without them, Forza is just another racer to me. And they could look at real life motorsports more closely, of how racing careers are structured, rules are set, and stats are tracked. I would like to see a series of more real life careers in GT6, with rules from many types of racing, and this could run alongside GT and Arcade Modes so you could always go back to old school sandbox xtyle GT racing.

I agree with most parts. But really, I finished the A-Spec (not the endurances, did not touch them) and I can´t remember any race with tire wear, damage or use of fuel... Maybe the F1 race and Nascar...

As you said, the tracks have nothing to do with the subject... Most tracks are unused, mostly you drive on Tsukuba or Grand Valley...

I wonder why they´ve implemented the Top Gear track if there are no leaderboards or nothing to compare with Top Gears or the Stigs real life lap times...

Shift, ok that "friends lap times" was an bad example... But EA implemented some really motivating features. I did not played Shift for longer than 30 mins becauese that physics are absolutely worse... But anyway there is a structure in the game, not this "wild playing each event you want with whatever car you want"... I mean, a lot of people use the Xcrapredbull car to finish endurances...

What about the time difference to the car in front or back of you? Why cant they implement this? Why can I only see the time difference to the leader?

I love GT5, really, no game can give me that feeling when I drive a car in an game! But 90% of my time I´m hotlapping because there is nothing else to do in that game what makes fun... The AI is really a joke in the challenging way. As it say, the real driving simulator... but nothing more...

In FM3 I´ve had such great challenges with the AI, there were races where you drive perfect but cant get the leader whatever you do. You drive perfect but you win only +0.200 each lap to the car in front of you... Such things are fun! But not to start last and "try" to get first in 3 or 5 laps...
 
I'm playing through Shift 2 now. I can agree the physics are not the same as GT5's heck I've had to alter how I handle certain tracks like Suzuka, which I drive noticeably differently than I do in GT5. I also had to spend a couple HOURS tuning my steering wheel settings to get it to drive acceptably. If you don't do that the game is undriveable.

That said theres something about the game that just "feels right". I can't put my finger on it, but it just does. The fact that you can play a race series and not have to worry about a car that just walks everyone no matter what you do (unless you overpower it), or the fact the AI seems to behave like real life people (albeit kinda like not so good drivers you'd meet online but whatever). They battle eachother, they occasionally make mistakes, etc. I like how much I can personalize my cars aside from color and wheels.

There are some detractions, drifting sucks, I was at least compelled to try it in GT5 a few times, in Shift 2 it feels wrong, its really hard to do, and its not fun. I actually managed to get myself nauseous trying it. Also the sticky cars suck, if I bump someone (or they bump me) we get stuck to eachother, walls do this too. Finally Eliminator events, just a frenzied crash fest. Not sure if they have different AI on them or what but very frustrating as everyone just bashes into eachother and its hard to get an advantage.

I like the speedwall feature as ell to be able to compare times with friends and the world. But that said, the "regional record" and "world record" fields are a joke, because theres many times no limit on what you can do to the cars, so the records are so far out of reach if you don't use the most maxxed out car. Thats the other advantage over GT5 though, if you hop up your car, the Computer hops theirs up to match. So there aren't huge gains in race position to be made by modding, except when racing against the "pros".

Someone else said it best here, GT5 feels like you're racing model cars on a model track, Shift feels dirty and real. I'm not saying its better, but its different, and it is really great.
 
Eh, I shouldn't quibble so much over whether Shift 2 has anything going for it or not. It obviously does because it has a growing fanbase.

But I think rather than stating that PD should look at other racing games for what they did right, which rut these threads invariably fall into, you should look at how the experience of other games compare, which is how this one started out. Especially because you have to pretty much look at a fairly big pile of games. You know:
  • The Shift games
  • The Forza series
  • Good NASCAR games
  • rFactor
  • The GTR series
  • Live For Speed
  • iRacing
  • Rally games like Colin McRae and Richard Burns
  • The good Formula 1 games
Does it ever end? And do we really want Gran Turismo to become an amalgam of other racers? I don't.

Instead, I'd rather Kaz focus on what really matters, and what serious racing game makers should be, real life motorsports. Some say that a Gran Turismo which included some real world motorsports seasons and careers just isn't what Gran Turismo is all about. I disagree. I think that Kazunori's racing experience - not to mention skill - among game developers is pretty hard to match. Who else has participated in the Nurburgring 24 Hours? It's clear from interviews that Kaz wants to give players the essence and taste of what it is to participate in these professional events. And I believe that it wouldn't take much work at all to code a series of seasons for different racing disciplines like WRS, BTCC, DTM and ALMS for instance, and even a true career progression from enthusiast racing through professional. This basically involves stringing together a bunch of races, making calendars, figuring out the rules and how strict to be, and having a stat tracking database, the relatively easy parts.

The real work in making a racing game is creating a good looking and smooth running engine which works as well online as off, coding the physics and bot A.I. well, modeling and painting the cars and tracks, making a livery editor, and building a solid fast online system.

And Season and Career Modes would be entirely optional, leaving Arcade and GT Modes available for those who didn't want to mess with the others. But I think these two modes of play would add seriously to the appeal of Gran Turismo, as it seems from the number of posts here that a good deal of GT fans are hardcore, and would love to see something like this. Especially since this kind of thing is lacking in many racing games.
 
Same here, after playing Shift 2 even brought the drag and legend package
in the end still going back to GT5 due to this reason :

- not realistic as driving experience compare to GT5 (even on stock cars, it feels you are running on ice, own an evo 9, drove it on track, but shift 2 makes me feel my evo is running on ice all the time, upgrade to the top spec tires, same deal)

But GT5 should consider taking some good points from Shift 2
- sounds of the engine/turbo/BoV, it sounds great compare to GT5. It feels more flavour on Shift 2 (movie like)
 
Eh, I shouldn't quibble so much over whether Shift 2 has anything going for it or not. It obviously does because it has a growing fanbase.
.....................
And Season and Career Modes would be entirely optional, leaving Arcade and GT Modes available for those who didn't want to mess with the others. But I think these two modes of play would add seriously to the appeal of Gran Turismo, as it seems from the number of posts here that a good deal of GT fans are hardcore, and would love to see something like this. Especially since this kind of thing is lacking in many racing games.

Wanted to reply to you without the super quote. I agree I don't think making GT just like Shift or any of the rest would be the right move. I think its just that the Single player in that game seems more deep due to the following:

1) AI that is just plain better and behaves more realistic (could be a bit less aggressive but whatever)
2) AI that matches its vehicle performance level to yours
3) Leaderboards on every race and every track for you and your friends

The driving is just more realistic in GT5, but the "racing" in Shift 2 and others is more real. Like I said I can't explain it but it just feels right.

Also for many people just driving is enough for them, but many of us (being gamers) have a competitive nature, and thus are motivated by things like leaderboards to repeat an event. Instead of grinding em out to get more money to buy another car. Thats why the time trial seasonals have proved so popular.
 
Well after buying and trying to love Shift 2, I am back to GT5. I just can't put up with the aggressive AI and the faster the cars get less realistic they become. I don't see either of those things ever changing.

However they did do 3 things very right that I think GT5 could fairly easily be implemented. First, recording your best time for each event could easily be implemented in GT5, and would add a lot of fun to the game especially if it shares times with your friends. Secondly, by matching your Performance number for each race you play. That is you enter in a early event with a 500pp car then all your competitors will be 500pp with the same tires as you. Its a simple change that will add a lot to the game. Lastly, having 3 difficulties levels so that the AI could drive like they do now at Easy, on Hard have them drive like the do on the FGT championship and have SRT disabled while on Hard.

What I will miss most from Shift 2 though is the tracks. There is just so many real world tracks on it with many deritives. Ie not only do they have Monza, but they also have Monza Jr. Also 2 different versions of Donington, 3 different versions of Glendale, etc.

I absolutely hated the driving in Shift 2, but man was the tracks great(other than their Ring which was a smooth watered down track). I also liked that if you ever seriously lose it while racing, you might as well restart because you will never make it back to the front.
These are all good ideas, but there's more.
The level of customization for steering settings, etc, helps wheel and DS3 users alike, something GT5 has almost zero options for. 👎


Wanted to reply to you without the super quote. I agree I don't think making GT just like Shift or any of the rest would be the right move. I think its just that the Single player in that game seems more deep due to the following:

1) AI that is just plain better and behaves more realistic (could be a bit less aggressive but whatever)
2) AI that matches its vehicle performance level to yours
3) Leaderboards on every race and every track for you and your friends

The driving is just more realistic in GT5, but the "racing" in Shift 2 and others is more real. Like I said I can't explain it but it just feels right.

Also for many people just driving is enough for them, but many of us (being gamers) have a competitive nature, and thus are motivated by things like leaderboards to repeat an event. Instead of grinding em out to get more money to buy another car. Thats why the time trial seasonals have proved so popular.
It sounds like a list of reasons they should make GT more like NFS if anything.

If you put GT5 graphics (maybe even a bit lower) with GT5's physics combined with NFS features and customization, you will have made a game every racing game player in the world will want.
I know some will say different, but the option(s) of customization and game play, through all the settings would cater to every known human alive in this context.
Of course with the small fragmented exception that won't play GT5 already because the physics aren't on iRacing level, etc.
 
While I'm not particularly impressed by any racing games' bot A.I., I will have to say that the one stinky thing about every GT game from GT3 on up is how early and how hard the bots will brake.

I can make a race fun and competitive. Just try and race a modified Ford GT in the American Championship series! But I can see the point of those who would rather not hamstring themselves to have a tough race. If Kaz could gene-splice in the best parts of the bots from Forza, Shift and GTR, even without better damage or a livery editor, I have a feeling that the world would ring with the praise of many fans.

By the way, there's something unique in the essence of every developer which shows up in their games. Forza, Gran Turismo, GTR and Shift all feel different through and through. And whether you think this is blind fanboyism or not - like I really care, this is what will keep me buying Gran Turismo games until Polyphony quits making them. Other games are... well, other games. But there is only one Gran Turismo.
 
Shift2 has plenty of potential, but the handling is UNRULY! I got it when it first came out, tryed it for a week......and put that piece on the shelf. I got bored with GT5 for a minute. Put in shift2 and I'm back to GT5 and will stay with it. I might rent shift3.
 
Shift2 has plenty of potential, but the handling is UNRULY! I got it when it first came out, tryed it for a week......and put that piece on the shelf. I got bored with GT5 for a minute. Put in shift2 and I'm back to GT5 and will stay with it. I might rent shift3.

I have to agree in some cases. Some cars in that game are downright undriveable. Others I had to come here to get a tune because the cars stock tune was so bad I didn't know where to start with it and just wanted to get moving.

Thats another thing, I found myself tuning my cars myself in GT5, in Shift 2 not so much. Ive spent many laps on my own in GT5, and only a few in Shift 2. Maybe though thats because the racing part is so much more enjoyable as opposed to just the act of driving, thats the enjoyable part of GT5.
 
Would the AI of GT5 be 'better' if they would try to overtake much more? Overtaking is risky, the lead driver has the possibility to defend that. Maybe it`s better left as it is now, pressuring but barely overtaking. Waiting for you to slip up. Like in the FGT championship. Now that is hard if you do it for the first time and one does not know the tracks too well.

How bad is the AI in the Indy Nascar Super Speedway track in A-spec?
 
In the NASCAR events, sometimes they all drive like Darrel Waltrip (polite), sometimes they all drive like Dale Earnhardt (aggressive and crashy). I can only manage to win in chase view because invariably I'll get banged in the bumper by some tard bot wanting my place and spinning me out.

I think a combo of making the bots brake more humanly in turns and perhaps drive a little faster and more defensively - just a bit more, sometimes they can bang you around. That would be perfect.
 
Well after buying and trying to love Shift 2, I am back to GT5. I just can't put up with the aggressive AI and the faster the cars get less realistic they become. I don't see either of those things ever changing.

However they did do 3 things very right that I think GT5 could fairly easily be implemented. First, recording your best time for each event could easily be implemented in GT5, and would add a lot of fun to the game especially if it shares times with your friends. Secondly, by matching your Performance number for each race you play. That is you enter in a early event with a 500pp car then all your competitors will be 500pp with the same tires as you. Its a simple change that will add a lot to the game. Lastly, having 3 difficulties levels so that the AI could drive like they do now at Easy, on Hard have them drive like the do on the FGT championship and have SRT disabled while on Hard.

What I will miss most from Shift 2 though is the tracks. There is just so many real world tracks on it with many deritives. Ie not only do they have Monza, but they also have Monza Jr. Also 2 different versions of Donington, 3 different versions of Glendale, etc.

I absolutely hated the driving in Shift 2, but man was the tracks great(other than their Ring which was a smooth watered down track). I also liked that if you ever seriously lose it while racing, you might as well restart because you will never make it back to the front.

This is good to hear as I was thinking of trying shirt 2 for a break from GT5. Sounds like it is not worth it.
 
Would the AI of GT5 be 'better' if they would try to overtake much more? Overtaking is risky, the lead driver has the possibility to defend that. Maybe it`s better left as it is now, pressuring but barely overtaking. Waiting for you to slip up. Like in the FGT championship. Now that is hard if you do it for the first time and one does not know the tracks too well.

How bad is the AI in the Indy Nascar Super Speedway track in A-spec?

I know the tracks and still found the FGT championship hard.

Ok, I use a DS3, have both these games, and I will say just this:
I found Shift 2 to be a bit weird at first, the whole light steering, slidey car nature, incredibly easy to roll a car. It was all new and weird, but having had sat down for a weekend and play it, I managed to get used to the easy rollability of the cars. However, Even after setting my steering sensitivity to something like 10%, tuning teh car so it would have soo much understeer, trying everything to make the car feel heavy and not want to slide at everychance it got, I still couldnt get used to it. I do like the Car customization of Shift 2, I like how there are more tuning options, engine swaps, everything a racing sim should have.

Then we go to GT5, quite easy to drive, it actually feels as though you are steering something that weighs more than a feather, the car feels, like a car. The car list is huge compared to Shift 2, the cars look better IMO, (even the standards in some cases). The tracks feel as though its more than just a cardboard cut-out layed on the ground, the sounds are a bit better (You can actually hear the car bottoming out on bumps and the exhaust note changes depending on what exhaust is equipped) The tuning actually feels as though it does something, over all it feels as though it has the makings of a racing sim, minus the overall "racing" feel.

If we had a hybrid of the 2: Driving physics, cars, realisim of GT5 with the racer feel like car customisation, proper crash model, relativly good AI like Shift 2, We would have the ultimate race sim. Take out a few skylines, a few Miatas, S2000's, civics, etc, and we would have the most Ideal, well balanced racing game that would suit everyones wants. I simple sunday driver for those who just lap the 'Ring for the scenary right the way through th hardcore racer who wants to squeeze every second out of his 2JZ transplanted Toyota Corolla.
 
I've just been playing Shift 2. That game is more stressful than fun. Restarting each race after the AI crashed you into a wall and put you into last place? Everything about that game is great, except the AI. The AI is so aggressive, as if you are not there. They hit you when you brake, they do the pit maneuver, they will crash you out eventually. I just can't stand them. But it does make GT5 look a bit bland, I have to say.
 
I have shift 2, I really tried to like it, but it's garbage controls make me hate it. It would be a decent game of there wasn't something wrong with the steering, its like it's lagging.

It makes the game unplayable, its also why it hasn't been played a week after I bought it
 
Well after buying and trying to love Shift 2, I am back to GT5. I just can't put up with the aggressive AI and the faster the cars get less realistic they become. I don't see either of those things ever changing.

However they did do 3 things very right that I think GT5 could fairly easily be implemented. First, recording your best time for each event could easily be implemented in GT5, and would add a lot of fun to the game especially if it shares times with your friends. Secondly, by matching your Performance number for each race you play. That is you enter in a early event with a 500pp car then all your competitors will be 500pp with the same tires as you. Its a simple change that will add a lot to the game. Lastly, having 3 difficulties levels so that the AI could drive like they do now at Easy, on Hard have them drive like the do on the FGT championship and have SRT disabled while on Hard.

What I will miss most from Shift 2 though is the tracks. There is just so many real world tracks on it with many deritives. Ie not only do they have Monza, but they also have Monza Jr. Also 2 different versions of Donington, 3 different versions of Glendale, etc.

I absolutely hated the driving in Shift 2, but man was the tracks great(other than their Ring which was a smooth watered down track). I also liked that if you ever seriously lose it while racing, you might as well restart because you will never make it back to the front.

I played shift and the game was great until u started driving the cars tuning is great cars are great sounds are amazing race feel is amzing the physics are just off with all the lag and the float feel
 
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