Bahrain GP 2011 - Should it happen?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Pezzarinho17
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Reschedule or Cancel the Bahrain Grand Prix?

  • Reschedule it

    Votes: 14 24.6%

  • Cancel it

    Votes: 33 57.9%

  • Don't mind

    Votes: 10 17.5%
  • Total voters
    57
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Moot
You are so nice to talk to.
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Come back when you actually know what you're talking about.

Touring Mars
I was under the impression that the decision to postpone was down to security/safety concerns during a period of on-going civil unrest in the country.
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Which is the way it should be - but some people insist on making this political. The cynic in me says that people who want the race cancelled on moral grounds largely want it cancelled so they can sleep well at night. But depite the likes of Mark Webber criticising the decision to reinstate the race, Rubens Barrichello has said that the GDPA has discussed the matter, and all of the drivers are okay with racing in Bahrain so long as safety can be guaranteed. The politics of the situation do not concern them. Likewise, Renault in particular have said they are willing to race, again if safety can be guaranteed.
 
interludes
Come back when you actually know what you're talking about.


Which is the way it should be - but some people insist on making this political. The cynic in me says that people who want the race cancelled on moral grounds largely want it cancelled so they can sleep well at night. But depite the likes of Mark Webber criticising the decision to reinstate the race, Rubens Barrichello has said that the GDPA has discussed the matter, and all of the drivers are okay with racing in Bahrain so long as safety can be guaranteed. The politics of the situation do not concern them. Likewise, Renault in particular have said they are willing to race, again if safety can be guaranteed.
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The safety issue is a result of political actions, or inaction.
 
I think Bernie's 'flip flop' is being mis-reported. Here's why - and I'm being literal here!

Bernie as the CRH (or one of the CRHs) has supported the addition (or reinclusion) of a potentially profitable race to the calendar.

However, that's only a provisional rearrangement as the teams have to agree to the change. Max Moseley agrees that that's the case - and as former FIA President and a lawyer of proven skill (whatever his irrelevant personal preferences) he'll know the statutes inside-out.

Bernie has simply acted to do what he needs to do and got the Bahraini event back onto the provisional calendar in order that it can be discussed and voted upon properly. I don't believe that he's changed his mind, he's simply moved events to a point where a decisive Yes or No can be delivered by FOTA and, by association, their respective sponsors.

Unlike China where F1 is trying to tap into a market in a country whose pretty appalling human-rights record is, we're assured, slowly being improved it seems fair to see Bahrain as a country whose civilised way of life has suddenly turned very ugly as the government uses extreme force and injustice to quell protests.

As a number of people have already pointed out; the teams ultimate decision won't, sadly, be based on any wide-reaching conscience but rather on the ability to guarantee the safety of employees, associates and sponsors in that climate of violence. Bernie's advising them against agreeing to the calendar alteration - another clear case of him being a man who wears a number of different hats.
 
interludes
Come back when you actually know what you're talking about.
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I will come and go as I please, but thanks for your free advice.
..............

Damon Hills words regarding this issue:"I think the trouble with Formula 1 is that it's a bubble. It goes around the world and people live in this bubble and they seem to feel they're immune to everything else that's happening."



I wonder if Damon is talking about specific people, or he really does just mean the whole nature of F1?
 
BBC publishing teams' letter to FIA shortly, BBC tweeting that teams are telling the FIA that attending a Bahraini event would be "unbearable to our staff".

EDIT:

FOTA aren't publishing the letter - but correspondents who've spoken to teams say that the teams' reasoning is that extending the calendar into December would be "unbearable to our staff". Despite FIA and the WSMC having voted the changes throught (I wasn't aware that the WSMC had done their part yet!) the teams still need to given their written consent under the constitution.

It seems that such consent will NOT be forthcoming and that the Indian GP will return to it's original slot with the Bahraini event being cancelled in 2011.

The teams are at pains to stress that they've always enjoyed visiting Bahrain and that their objections are on the basis of scheduling more than anything else.

Sure, right :D
 
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SUPER NUMBBER
The decision itself to stage the Bahrain GP has nothing to do with politics. Murdering people is not a politics issue.
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Indeed, and we aren't talking about F1 murdering people. :dunce:

SUPER NUMBBER
Interludes and Ardius - the reason why they race in China is the same reason why we're debating the Bahrain race. Because F1 is chock full of callous elitists who see money as the almighty God. Nobody asked ME whether we should race in China, because I would've said the same thing. Should they not be outraged because racing in China would make them to be hypocrites? That's a callous assessment that places a premium on image rather than doing the right thing. Maybe F1 should reconsider participating in oppressive regimes. By racing there, F1 is giving financial support to dictators, and while you may only see the F1 spectacle by it's facade, it's much more than that. Refusal to see it as such does not excuse ignorance.
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Oh? So its everyone in F1 who is to blame for turning a blind eye to China? :lol:

Show me the public outcry outside of F1 about the Chinese Grand Prix. It has never been anything like this is for Bahrain. I wouldn't blame F1, I blame everyone's inconsistent and subjective idea of what is "right".

This is all so ridiculous, its simply a race, "financial support" to dictators? :lol: You're joking right? Bahrain spends millions of euros/pounds/dollars to host the race, more so than Silverstone and Monaco. Sure, Bahrain gets media and brand exposure in return but its hardly "financial support".
There are far worse examples of dictators being funded...why look at Gaddafi. It doesn't make it right nor does it make it wrong to criticise such sporting events..but the argument is a little weak.

The problem wasn't really that Bahrain has dictators - they've been around for years before and no one (in F1 or in the general public) has vocally complained. The problem is the current situation in Bahrain being in turmoil - and the supposed question of morality to run a race at the same time.

I like how now my enjoyment of previous Bahrain GPs is now being turned into some kind of "ignorance". Its not about refusing to see..why do you think I don't believe there is a problem in Bahrain? I have frequently noted in previous posts there is a very serious issue with Bahrain. My "refusal" is to consider a sporting event as a political message, either in protest or in condoning the actions of a government. To me, its simply a motor race, as Touring Mars said, there are so many different interested parties involved in F1 that its difficult to put a political stance on it. The only stance F1 has is marketing and money. Its not good marketing for the sponsors to be seen getting involved in Bahrain right now. The teams are worried about the logitistics and the drivers like to be seen as the leading examples they proclaim to be (also goes down well with sponsors to say the right thing). Some people probably do feel strongly about the human rights issues too, but this shouldn't and probably won't be the real reason the race gets cancelled.

Why is no one demanding the teams and sponsors with Bahraini connections to be banned from the sport too? Surely if we can't have a race in Bahrain on ethical or moral grounds, then Bahrain can't be involved with an F1 team or sponsor.
 
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Obviously the smelliest part of it all is that the FIA only met one side of the problem and asked them if all was ok...they didn't bother asking the Shi'a side. (although there are some who say that the protestors in Bahrain would love to see the GP go ahead as it gives them a chance to make a scene again).

The only thing that this whole mess is doing is showing how pathetic the FIA can be and how out-of-depth Jean Todt looks - see the BBC interview.
 
Ardius
Obviously the smelliest part of it all is that the FIA only met one side of the problem and asked them if all was ok...they didn't bother asking the Shi'a side. (although there are some who say that the protestors in Bahrain would love to see the GP go ahead as it gives them a chance to make a scene again).

The only thing that this whole mess is doing is showing how pathetic the FIA can be and how out-of-depth Jean Todt looks - see the BBC interview.
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Here is the BBC interview with Todt.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/formula_one/13673349.stm
Several times Todt asserts that FIA representatives met with Bahraini opposition who asked them to go ahead and race.
 
I'm curious as to how the FIA actually approached Bahrain. Apparently the guy who volunteered to go/was sent doesn't speak English or Arabic. It wouldn't be too difficult for government members to mislead him - have him meet with "opposition members" who are actually government stalwarts pretending to be the opposition.
 
Ardius
Indeed, and we aren't talking about F1 murdering people. :dunce:
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Nobody is contending that, so I don't know what's your point here.:dunce:

Ardius
Oh? So its everyone in F1 who is to blame for turning a blind eye to China? :lol:

Show me the public outcry outside of F1 about the Chinese Grand Prix. It has never been anything like this is for Bahrain. I wouldn't blame F1, I blame everyone's inconsistent and subjective idea of what is "right".
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I already granted there's no major movement against China like there is for Bahrain, and what I said was my own opinion. You asked why no one was complaining about the race, so I explained that the relative silence doesn't mean everyone approves. Why are you asking me where the public outcry against the Chinese GP is?

Ardius
This is all so ridiculous, its simply a race, "financial support" to dictators? :lol: You're joking right? Bahrain spends millions of euros/pounds/dollars to host the race, more so than Silverstone and Monaco. Sure, Bahrain gets media and brand exposure in return but its hardly "financial support".
There are far worse examples of dictators being funded...why look at Gaddafi. It doesn't make it right nor does it make it wrong to criticise such sporting events..but the argument is a little weak.

The problem wasn't really that Bahrain has dictators - they've been around for years before and no one (in F1 or in the general public) has vocally complained. The problem is the current situation in Bahrain being in turmoil - and the supposed question of morality to run a race at the same time.
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You're probably right that Bahrain spends more on the race than it gets back; the point is that they still benefit from getting the green light. They get exposure and it relieves pressure from human rights groups internally and internationally. Which in turn opens the door to other sporting events or engagements being held there.

It's not that there's no problem with dictators - F1 just tolerates it. There's no shortage of criticism towards FOM and the way they deal with these regimes. Key phrase: "vocally complained"

Ardius
I like how now my enjoyment of previous Bahrain GPs is now being turned into some kind of "ignorance". Its not about refusing to see..why do you think I don't believe there is a problem in Bahrain? I have frequently noted in previous posts there is a very serious issue with Bahrain. My "refusal" is to consider a sporting event as a political message, either in protest or in condoning the actions of a government. To me, its simply a motor race, as Touring Mars said, there are so many different interested parties involved in F1 that its difficult to put a political stance on it. The only stance F1 has is marketing and money. Its not good marketing for the sponsors to be seen getting involved in Bahrain right now. The teams are worried about the logitistics and the drivers like to be seen as the leading examples they proclaim to be (also goes down well with sponsors to say the right thing). Some people probably do feel strongly about the human rights issues too, but this shouldn't and probably won't be the real reason the race gets cancelled.
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Again, I never said enjoying the Bahrain GP makes you ignorant. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? The ignorance comes from failing to see F1 has already been politicized by the Bahrain government. It's clear to see how they're trying to use it as a promotion tool, and if you don't see that, something is not clicking right on your mind.
 
This from the Beeb a few minutes ago;

BBC
Formula 1 boss Bernie Ecclestone expects October's reinstated Bahrain Grand Prix to be cancelled.

"Hopefully there'll be peace and quiet and we can return in the future, but of course it's not on," he told BBC Sport.

"The schedule cannot be rescheduled without the agreement of the participants - they're the facts."

Ecclestone's words come after 11 Formula 1 teams objected to the race taking place on Tuesday.
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No really new news, just thought it was pertinent :D
 
You said murder is not politics...and I was pointing out that we are not talking about F1 murdering people, but F1 deciding whether or not to hold a race in a country where murder has taken place. Now that is politics.

I'm asking where the public outcry over China is because we currently have it with Bahrain. Its funny that people tolerate one but not the other.
If there had been major news stories about China at the same time as one of the GPs, I have no doubt there would be much more vocal complaints - which only goes to show how this isn't about morality but about publicity and money.

Of course the GP is a "tool" for Bahrain, all GPs are "tools" for tourisim primarily. The difference here is were talking about using the GP as a political tool against governments. This is not ignorance on my part, for I recognise this. But I don't see how it taints the GP - though I accept that its a valid reason for people to take a dislike to the race going ahead. Problem is its not a very strong argument to "make a stand" on Bahrain yet happily tolerate/ignore particular other countries.

I'm not asking or criticising you directly, but the wider ideal that F1 should make a stand based on ethics or politics. There are much better reasons not to go to Bahrain without getting into the politics of it all.
 
Ardius
I'm asking where the public outcry over China is because we currently have it with Bahrain. Its funny that people tolerate one but not the other.
If there had been major news stories about China at the same time as one of the GPs, I have no doubt there would be much more vocal complaints - which only goes to show how this isn't about morality but about publicity and money.
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I've always wondered why more is not made of China's atrocious human rights record. I guess when your economy is large enough, people will stop paying attention to (literal) skeletons in your closet.
 
interludes
That's really just Ecclestone's opinion.
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I think he's worn two distinctly different hats during this. He needed a final decision on the issue. Being the good businessman that he is he found a way to make it happen - namely push the FIA towards adding the race, garner the teams' collective opinion and then move to a final decision.

You have to remember that his opinion is usually intrinsically linked to what happens. Love him or hate him he is F1 itself.

No surprise then that Todt has just sent a letter to FOTA including the worst-kept motorsport secretof recent years;

Jean Todt
I have listened to your last-minute objections and have asked the commercial rights holder to re-examine his calendar proposal, and if necessary, to submit a revised proposal to the World Council.

The FIA always has at heart the smooth running of the championship and the interest of the teams and is always prepared to address any issues, however difficult, in a constructive manner.
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In deciding to reinstate the Bahrain race, the FIA had overlooked article 66 of its own sporting code, which says that no amendments can be made to the arrangements for a championship after entries open without the agreement of all competitors.

Technically speaking, the vote remains valid, and in theory the FIA should have another vote to cancel it.

In reality, though, because the FIA did not follow its own rules, the teams can simply ignore it, as the vote cannot take effect without their agreement.

That means that, because the teams have formally objected to the reinstatement to the Bahrain race, it cannot now take place this year.
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From here...
 
After a week or so of us all knowing that Bahrain would be removed from the calendar... it officially has.

The WSMC voted unanimously today for a ratified calendar with India in its original slot and Bahrain removed.

Bahrain remains as the first race of the provisional 2012 calendar... but with 21 races on the calendar it's commonly accepted that 1 will be dropped.
 
Well, a few things guys. I am a Bahraini citizen. Can you guys PLEASE get both sides of the story? PLEASE do that. Not all protesters are good guys you know?

Just research more about the current situation in Bahrain. Well it would be hard to find both sides of the story as many people on the internet have been taking the protesters' side.

Lots of news channels like BBC, CNN, Sky News etc. have been taking the sides of the protesters' showing what the government has been doing.

For example:

- When the Security Officers attacked the Pearl Roundabout (which has been demolished for those of you who don't know), it was spread ALL over the news, ALL across the world.

BUT, When the protesters went to Bahrain University and attacked the Sunni students, not a single hint of that was aired on western television.

- When protesters' were taken and imprisoned, again, it was spread ALL over the news, ALL over the world.

BUT, when protesters' decided to attack and run over police men who were attending the police checkpoints, I did not hear one thing about this on western television. It was all over National TV though.

So once again, look into both sides of the story, THEN decide who's the bad guy.

Thank you for reading.
 
SalmanBH
Well, a few things guys. I am a Bahraini citizen. Can you guys PLEASE get both sides of the story? PLEASE do that. Not all protesters are good guys you know?

Just research more about the current situation in Bahrain. Well it would be hard to find both sides of the story as many people on the internet have been taking the protesters' side.

Lots of news channels like BBC, CNN, Sky News etc. have been taking the sides of the protesters' showing what the government has been doing.

For example:

- When the Security Officers attacked the Pearl Roundabout (which has been demolished for those of you who don't know), it was spread ALL over the news, ALL across the world.

BUT, When the protesters went to Bahrain University and attacked the Sunni students, not a single hint of that was aired on western television.

- When protesters' were taken and imprisoned, again, it was spread ALL over the news, ALL over the world.

BUT, when protesters' decided to attack and run over police men who were attending the police checkpoints, I did not hear one thing about this on western television. It was all over National TV though.

So once again, look into both sides of the story, THEN decide who's the bad guy.

Thank you for reading.
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Fair comment, thank you for posting it!

I'm not sure which country you're watching the newscasts in but in the UK the BBC 24 channel and the World Service (as you'd expect) have been covering the issue in some detail.

Regardless of the absolute depth of coverage I think most members here will see beyond the initial headlines in any 'people' story and realise that where there are humans there are complications that can't be expressed in simple binary terms.

Certain things in the Bahraini situation are (as you'll know yourself) quite clear;

1) The Bahraini government is neither poor nor badly equipped. Crowd/riot control doesn't have to be this way.

2) Support for the Bahraini leadership in terms of troops and equipment from neighbouring Sunni territories has, in the view of much of the world, turned this into a 'caste' struggle. Westerners often struggle to understand such schisms. The Saudi ambassador for the UK did little to help this when he explained that Shia uprisings would never be tolerated. Bright guy.

3) From the perspective of F1 there is a perceived security risk as alluded to in the 'Day of Rage' advertised by some of the protest organisers.

4) Dropping Bahrain from the 2011 calendar actually has nothing (nominally) to do with the protests. The new December date was considered unsuitable by the teams therefore they elected not to accept it. The issues surrounding Bahrain's civil unrest were never officially discussed in respect of ratifying the proposed changes to the calendar.

5) As Interludes suggests earlier the report made after a ground-visit to Bahrain by the Vice President of the FIA reads, in part, like something from BlackAdder. The world isn't convinced about the honesty of the Bahraini government and the report only serves (for many) to undermine that confidence.

I hope that Bahrain's problems are resolved peacefully and that a democracy can be established that engenders the respect and support of the people... and that we can see them back on the world stage soon.

After all that I should admit one thing; the track's never actually been one of my favourites :D
 
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I actually do think that the protesters would set something off IF the GP was rescheduled. Once they even started putting blockades made out of furniture, just so they can stop people from going to work. Our school was telling all the parents to come pick up their children due to the problems happening in the capital.

My parents prevented me from going to school due to the rumours spreading about something happening. Something similar would've happened to the tourists that were going to attend the GP.
 
Oh yeah. The Formula 1 was successfully held at the Bahrain International Circuit with ease.

The opposition should stop running around the streets burning tyres and throwing molotovs like monkeys and start behaving like human beings.
 
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