Ballast & Drifting

[Parnelli Bone]

I'm getting the hang of drifting in gT4 finally after many months. I'm not a pro or anything, so i'm just curious: what's the general rule for using ballast to get better drifting action---or is there a general rule? I'd like to maintain my drifts (mostly in rear drive cars) with the least front-end snapback possible, and i'm guessing if i mess with ballast weight it can eventually help.

I'll admit i haven't attempted to use ballast at all yet...i'm a "ballast newb". Perhaps someone here can discuss their experiences. I'm just trying to start off in the right direction with the least time wasted on fruitless experiments.

 

[Loon]

Adding ballast to the car will make it drift easier, turn into a bit of a pendulum. I do believe though the general vote is that it's cheating in a way.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Adding ballast to the car will make it drift easier, turn into a bit of a pendulum. I do believe though the general vote is that it's cheating in a way.

Where do you generally add it? Front or rear? How much goes where?

And i dont care if it's considered cheating...i'm just drifting for fun; not tryin to impress anyone.

 

[Loon]

Oh, the rear. It'll help turn a FR into a MR, that's sorta how a car acts when you tune it with that.

 

[dimplz]

and MR cars are easier to drift...TRY THE MR2 IN AUSSIE TUNERS great little drift car with no ballast...but try with only 300hp

 

[AOS-]

if you put it in the front, for like an FR car (common car everyone uses), you'd add excessive weight to the front, and I learned that when you put too much weight on the front during hard braking, you'll understeer from it (said, Scaff).. however some might like it in the front for MR cars,.. well you should know why...

if you put in the back, it helps as an amplifier of "throwing out the rear", as well puts more weight in the back, thus more rear grip, a specific amount may make it worse.
Though generally, putting weight in the back provides a lot of angle easily, but it can also give you more angle than you would usually need for most corners...

for an FR, my guess is if you put em in the back, you'll balance the majority of the weight, in the front, with the back, so people like me who do very hard braking will not suffer understeer..

 

[Parnelli Bone]

and MR cars are easier to drift...TRY THE MR2 IN AUSSIE TUNERS great little drift car with no ballast...but try with only 300hp

if you put it in the front, for like an FR car (common car everyone uses), you'd add excessive weight to the front, and I learned that when you put too much weight on the front during hard braking, you'll understeer from it (said, Scaff).. however some might like it in the front for MR cars,.. well you should know why...

if you put in the back, it helps as an amplifier of "throwing out the rear", as well puts more weight in the back, thus more rear grip, a specific amount may make it worse.
Though generally, putting weight in the back provides a lot of angle easily, but it can also give you more angle than you would usually need for most corners...

for an FR, my guess is if you put em in the back, you'll balance the majority of the weight, in the front, with the back, so people like me who do very hard braking will not suffer understeer..

Coool, thanks guys! +rep +rep

 

[Duke]

OK, here's a question for you - is moving the ballast to the rear POSITIVE, or NEGATIVE? It never actually says anywhere.

 

[Loon]

It's positive.👍

 

[Orion]

+Rep Loon, I have been looking for the answer to this ever since I bought my first car. 👍

 

[AOS-]

its pretty obvious what it is.. they did indicate "front - Rear" in that order...

 

[Parnelli Bone]

OK, here's a question for you - is moving the ballast to the rear POSITIVE, or NEGATIVE? It never actually says anywhere.

This has been my question with toe. Does +toe up front make the front of the tires (when looking towards the front of hte car) kick outwards (away from the engine) or in.

In other words...if you put +toe on, does it look like this?

front of car
\ /

][
rear of car

or this ?

front of car
/\

][
rear of car

I think +toe is supposed to look like #1...but then why does (in gT3) the diagram go inwards & opposite?

 

[AOS-]

i dont know about gt3 but in gt4 pos. toe = stick in , neg toe = stick out

 

[Parnelli Bone]

i dont know about gt3 but in gt4 pos. toe = stick in , neg toe = stick out

Thanks.

 

[Duke]

its pretty obvious what it is.. they did indicate "front - Rear" in that order...

No, it's NOT obvious at freaking all.

FIRST, don't forget that the Japanese read from right to left rather than left to right. And we all know how many other things weren't changed from Japan-sided to Western-sided in the game.

SECOND, the behaviour of cars with ballast shifted is ambiguous at best. Several RWD or midengine cars I've run recently hook up better at launch with ballast set to a negative number, which means that negative is toward the rear of the car. Also, the FWD touring car TSX that I set up during the SWTCC rotated better and was better balanced with the ballast set at -25, which suggests that maybe negative means toward the rear of the car.

 

[nk4e]

This has been my question with toe. Does +toe up front make the front of the tires (when looking towards the front of hte car) kick outwards (away from the engine) or in.

In other words...if you put +toe on, does it look like this?

front of car
\ /

][
rear of car

or this ?

front of car
/\

][
rear of car

Toe is in both sides of the wheels.
Toe in(positive) / \
Toe out( negative) \ /
(think of your feet)
then you have rear toe also, though you can't see it but its there.That is why it is best to get a 4 wheel alignment rather than a 2 wheel.(I'm thinking that is right, Im looking through my automotive book for the answer.)

 

[Duke]

In the US and most Western countries, toe IN is positive. In Japan, toe OUT is positive. In GT3 they gave a little diagram on the adjustment screen that indicated which was which. I forget which way it is, but I believe it's the same in GT4.

And nk4e is correct above; it's the same for both ends of the car.

 

[AOS-]

No, it's NOT obvious at freaking all.

FIRST, don't forget that the Japanese read from right to left rather than left to right. And we all know how many other things weren't changed from Japan-sided to Western-sided in the game.

SECOND, the behaviour of cars with ballast shifted is ambiguous at best. Several RWD or midengine cars I've run recently hook up better at launch with ballast set to a negative number, which means that negative is toward the rear of the car. Also, the FWD touring car TSX that I set up during the SWTCC rotated better and was better balanced with the ballast set at -25, which suggests that maybe negative means toward the rear of the car.

No need to snap, man..

even so if the japanese read from right to left, it'll apply to it the same way.

"Front - Rear"
front on the left, rear on the right... read it anyway you want im not reading it as a direction, more of a text image.

and if you found the ballast to work in a way that is the contrary to what i said, that's fine, whatever, it's nothing anyone should bite heads off about. If you think negative is putting it in the back, that's for you to believe..

 

[nk4e]

No need to snap, man..

even so if the japanese read from right to left, it'll apply to it the same way.

"Front - Rear"
front on the left, rear on the right... read it anyway you want im not reading it as a direction, more of a text image.

and if you found the ballast to work in a way that is the contrary to what i said, that's fine, whatever, it's nothing anyone should bite heads off about. If you think negative is putting it in the back, that's for you to believe..

Well, he isn't biting your head off. He could just give you a small warning if he wanted to.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

In the US and most Western countries, toe IN is positive. In Japan, toe OUT is positive. In GT3 they gave a little diagram on the adjustment screen that indicated which was which. I forget which way it is, but I believe it's the same in GT4.

And nk4e is correct above; it's the same for both ends of the car.

Yeah....I learned from reading Road & Track when i was a kid that negative toe means front of the wheels "in"

front of car
/\

But Sucahyo's experiements in GT2 (where he would put as much toe on a car with his emulator program as possible) as well as the diagram in gT3 has negative toe opposite.

front of car
\/

so this makes alot of sense and clears up some confusion

and if you found the ballast to work in a way that is the contrary to what i said, that's fine, whatever, it's nothing anyone should bite heads off about. If you think negative is putting it in the back, that's for you to believe..

Another thing i think we should know is that when you add ballast, it is adding the weight to your car in Kilograms, even if you have your options set to pounds. I just figured this out yesterday. Added "200" to my Ford Taurus SHO. I was expecting the weight to go from 3,326 (or whatever it weighs) to 3,526. Instead, it bounced up to 3,765 or something close to that!

 

[Duke]

Yeah....I learned from reading Road & Track when i was a kid that negative toe means front of the wheels "in"

No, that's positive toe in the US.

Also, did you know that you can adjust the weight balance without adding ballast? That's actually a nice feature. But it's still a little ambiguous which is which.

@ Trico: you're the one who told me it was "obvious" when it isn't, so who's biting who's head off?. And you're missing my point about which way the Japanese read. If you're reading in English, it's from left to right. That aligns with "front" and "negative" being to the left side of the diagram as you said was "obvious".

Now, put your little thinking cap on and imagine if you're reading in the reverse direction like the Japanese do... Guess what? That aligns with "front" and "positive" being on the RIGHT side of the little diagram.

Which, in fact, my testing seems to support, albeit not conclusively.

Get it?

 

[Suzuki]

Actually, Japanese read both right to left and left to right depending on how it is written out.

 

[Swift]

Actually, Japanese read both right to left and left to right depending on how it is written out.

Yeah, they're ambidextrous. Americans on the other hand have a hard enough time with English.

 

[Duke]

Yes, but books are generally configured right to left.

 

[Suzuki]

Are we reading a book or a game menu?

 

[Duke]

Are we reading a book or a game menu?

Irrelevant. My point here, which you're currently helping me prove, is that it is by no means obvious that left/negative is fore and right/positive is aft just because they say "from front to back" in the English translation of the subtext.

 

[Suzuki]

Hey, I'm just correcting a few things, I am by no means saying that + does this and - does that. I just didn't want everyone thinking that the Japanese can only write from right to left when thats only part of the truth.

 

[nk4e]

I didn't wanted to add anything but I knew that the Japanese read right to left because of the Manga I read. But I never knew that it depended how they wrote it.

 

[Suzuki]

Go pick up a Japanese newspaper and you will mainly see traditional type of printing it, but some things will be written western style (left to right, top to bottom.)

 

[Swift]

Let's keep it relaxed, gentlemen.