BDR: Weekend Race SeriesDraft

[GTracer38]

Okay, now that @SlipZtrEm's great little FMazda series has drawn to a close, it's time to decide on a new series (and maybe some future series).

I'll run a few polls over the next few weeks to try an get some direction on what people want to do for the next series, but the base idea will be to have around 1hr of racing spread over a few different formats.

Continuing on from what @ClydeYellow mentioned in the Spec GTP thread, the aim is to have a large enough group of people to run a series that caters to both the European and American contingent.
What that will most likely entail is (similar to what GP2 used to do) a portion of the series being run at one time and another portion running at a different time. They would rotate from week to week, meaning that participants who elect to only run in one of the 'mini series' would be racing fortnightly.
Both 'mini-series' would have their own points table as well as combined table for those who are able to run both.

As for what time each of these 'mini series' are run at, I'll leave that up for discussion. Also, their may be need for a different host for each 'mini series'.

This series will be for everyone to have some fun with. There's nothing at stake. So it doesn't matter if you are lapping in the top 50 or just trying to get a clean lap, everyone is welcomed and encouraged to participate.

*There will be more added here once the polls start to decide what will happen.


Now, if people have some series idea's and/or builds they want to put forward for the next series we run, now is the chance. I'll add a list here and we will organize to run a few sessions this week/weekend to decide;

One-make Series​

- Audi TT Cup (test build shared)
- Nissan Juke Trophy (test build shared)
- Porsche Supercup / Carrera Cup (DLC) (test build shared)
- Lamborghini Super Trofeo
- Maserati GT Trofeo (DLC)
- Ferrari Challenge
- Fiat 500 Cup / Abarth Trofeo 500 (test build shared)
- Formula E
- BMW M235i Cup
- Clio Cup
- Megane Trophy
- Exige Trophy
- HQ Series
- Formula 1
- 1980's Grand Prix
- 1990's IndyCar
- Formula Mazda
- Ford SuperVan Challenge
-

Other Series​

- *GT3-esque Series
- 1960's Grand Prix (test build shared)
- 1970's Grand Prix
- *Production Cars
- V8 Supercars
- NASCAR
- BTCC
- *TCR Series
- *Touring Car Masters
- *WEC / WTSCC aka TUSC
- *NASCAR
- IMSA GTO
- 1930's Grand Prix
- 1950's Le Mans
- Group 5
- Group C
- Classic LMP


* car build tba

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@SlipZtrEm
@Im_Lukas
@HighSeasHoMastr
@ClydeYellow
@prousonhairy
@VXR
@ImaRobot
@Populuxe Cowboy
@Fat Tyre
@05XR8
@TripleA5
@TokoTurismo
@RacerPaul

Anyone else you think is interested? Sign them up

 

[Populuxe]

Count me in.

 

[ClydeYellow]

You know I'm in, time schedule and internet speeds allowing. Now take a seat, this is going to be a long(ish) post...

With the possibility of larger grids in the future, I'd like to throw a couple of ideas and see if they stick.

The first would be that of a championship for tuners. The idea came after noticing how a)everybody was using @Im_Lukas tunes in the Formula Mazda, and b)nobody else was using someone else's tune (and I am part of a tuning/painting team, lol). Having a tuner championship structured like manufacturers championships in F1 and GT racing would serve multiple purposes:

• rewarding tuners for their hard work;
• encouraging tuners to provide setups for more than one car in the eventuality of a series that's not one-make;
• encouraging tuners that don't participate in the actual racing (because they don't have the time / don't feel comfortable racing in lobbies / aren't interested) to develop tunes nevertheless;
• providing lazy-ass racers like me with an excuse to not even try to develop a tune.

Another thing that I think would be neat is to start working on specifications for the series you listed right now. That way, everybody will have plenty of time to get used to the various builds, and we'll be under less pressure before a new series start - not to mention that we'll have more time to work out the kinks in some of the more problematic specs. It'd also allow us to run any already-tested specification any time there's not a series running - say, we could hop on Clios or 500s next week just for kicks and giggles.

As for proposing specifications, I'd like to see a series pitting the Lotus Eleven, Ferrari 500 "Mondial" and Porsche 718/60 against each other; I figure they could be evenly matched with little or no modifications, but tbh I don't even remember if the Eleven was a C or B-class car. Another thing the Forza Community needs, but doesn't know it wants is a Ford Transit Trophy. It's a shame the Supervan never gets used, because the IRL series looks fun.

Finally, regarding a topic that's of great interest for me: liveries. I am already working on some "presets" for some of the cars I see listed, and have plenty of vinyl groups already done; I could provide sort-of-custom liveries easily. If there's some interest I could focus more of my painting time on that. Of course it wouldn't be the same as asking an artist for a bespoke livery, or painting your own, but hey, it's something! I could also do the necessary work on number tabs & series logos if needed.

.

With all that being said, I did some testing with the 60s and 70s F1 cars at VIR. And here's the results!
(Lap times were all clean and posted on the 4th lap of a Rivals session, with the exception of the M2B which required me a little bit more to get used to).

Let's start with the more numerous 1966/1967 season cars. There's a cleavage between the lighter, nimble V8s and the more cumbersome V12s, which feel the extra weight especially during corner entry. I am afraid any upgrade would end up changing dramatically the way those cars drive; I'd therefore suggest (as I already did in the Formula Mazda thread) a handicap strategy in order to ensure there's some balance of performance.


With a 01:54,602 laptime, the Brabham BT24 is the fastest car of the lot. Its Repco engine is very torque-y at low revs, allowing to drive the car with the right foot; it is, however, underpowered (producing a "mere" 330 hp), thus making the BT24 slower than its direct opponent (the Lotus) on the Back Straight, and it's not the most stable car either, easily losing balance over kerbs. The suicidally brave (or a very good tuner) may turn the BT24 in a force to be reckoned with. A front grip penalty could be used to bring it back in check.


The Eagle T1G is the second-slowest car, with a laptime of 01:55,530. While it has plenty of power that allows it to easily reach 300kph on the Back Straight, the extra 200 pounds over its V8 rivals are... Heavy on its driving balance. Its torque curve makes it very drivable, despite that, but I'd be surprised to see the T1G come on top of a racing series.


The RA300 was the slowest car of the pack, with a 01:55,825 laptime. Its handling is very mild and confidence-inspiring, but it's a bit of a whale on slow corners, and torque's only available at higher revs. Also, despite being the most powerful car in its division, it really struggles to reach 280kph on the Back Straight (something I believe is due to its gear ratios, however). If push comes to shove, a rear grip handicap could make it more prone to slide and, thus, bring it closer to the competition.


The Lotus 49 feels essentially like a faster, but slightly less nimble BT24 - and its laptime of 01:54,849 is the second fastest. There's not really much else to say; it's another car that's best maneuvered with the right foot and opposite lock steering. Its speed on the Back Straight is on par with the Eagle T1G - not surprising, considering the similar power output (404 v. 410 hp).


Finally, there's the thorny issue in balancing a 60s F1 series: the McLaren M2B. Widely believed to be an "inferior" car, it's surely different from the rest of the pack; especially in its power output. It's hard to get her to slide properly, and where even the "slow" Honda does 280kph on the Back Straight, the M2B struggles to reach 270. However, its mild handling could make it the perfect car for people who may be scared by the Brabham or the Lotus. And as far as laptimes go: sure, it took me a bit longer to get used to the car, but I managed to do a lap of VIR in 01:55,401, which makes this the third fastest GP legend.

Of course, take my observations and laptimes with a pinch of salt, as they're only the product of a quick comparison, and I haven't tried to implement any of the proposed handicaps and see if they served their intended purpose. Perhaps a more in-depth study would be in order. But I figured that a baseline comparison would be helpful.

P.S: the only problem with the M2B is that it has a...

F2 engine, F2 engine!

...I'll see myself out.

 

[prousonhairy]

I'll race whenever I can. On the subject of tuning, I think it would be easier for those who aren't good at tuning, to have whatever we race, set the PI at 600,700, 800 etc. Its easier to find multiple tunes to try out and see which one fits the best for whatever track is next. You don't find many tunes that are just a random number, they are almost all tuned to the top of the class.

As far as liveries go, I'd rather just find one that someone made, or use a normal color. I don't think it should be mandatory for someone to have to design their own. But if it is, I'll deal with it.

 

[GTracer38]

You know I'm in, time schedule and internet speeds allowing. Now take a seat, this is going to be a long(ish) post...

With the possibility of larger grids in the future, I'd like to throw a couple of ideas and see if they stick.

The first would be that of a championship for tuners. The idea came after noticing how a)everybody was using @Im_Lukas tunes in the Formula Mazda, and b)nobody else was using someone else's tune (and I am part of a tuning/painting team, lol). Having a tuner championship structured like manufacturers championships in F1 and GT racing would serve multiple purposes:

• rewarding tuners for their hard work;
• encouraging tuners to provide setups for more than one car in the eventuality of a series that's not one-make;
• encouraging tuners that don't participate in the actual racing (because they don't have the time / don't feel comfortable racing in lobbies / aren't interested) to develop tunes nevertheless;
• providing lazy-ass racers like me with an excuse to not even try to develop a tune.

This could be implemented, sure. I think one of the only reason most people were using the same tune was because it was the best one for the car. That would be the only potential downfall with a tuning championship. If one person had a significantly better tune, everyone would want to use it.

Also would be dependent on the number of tuners and racers.

Another thing that I think would be neat is to start working on specifications for the series you listed right now. That way, everybody will have plenty of time to get used to the various builds, and we'll be under less pressure before a new series start - not to mention that we'll have more time to work out the kinks in some of the more problematic specs. It'd also allow us to run any already-tested specification any time there's not a series running - say, we could hop on Clios or 500s next week just for kicks and giggles.

That's the plan, yes. Get a few builds sorted so we can all try them and plan ahead.

As for proposing specifications, I'd like to see a series pitting the Lotus Eleven, Ferrari 500 "Mondial" and Porsche 718/60 against each other; I figure they could be evenly matched with little or no modifications, but tbh I don't even remember if the Eleven was a C or B-class car. Another thing the Forza Community needs, but doesn't know it wants is a Ford Transit Trophy. It's a shame the Supervan never gets used, because the IRL series looks fun. >Pic<

1950's LeMans and Ford SuperVan Challenge added to the list of series ideas.

Finally, regarding a topic that's of great interest for me: liveries. I am already working on some "presets" for some of the cars I see listed, and have plenty of vinyl groups already done; I could provide sort-of-custom liveries easily. If there's some interest I could focus more of my painting time on that. Of course it wouldn't be the same as asking an artist for a bespoke livery, or painting your own, but hey, it's something! I could also do the necessary work on number tabs & series logos if needed.

Liveries will be open. If people want to make some they can, but if people prefer to download them that'll be fine too.
Probably be series dependent too. Some series using the same basic design, others free choice, and some with replica liveries only.
Numberboards and series logo's will come after we decide on the series, times, specs etc. That said, I'll definitely try and work with people to get some nice ones put together.

With all that being said, I did some testing with the 60s and 70s F1 cars at VIR. And here's the results!
(Lap times were all clean and posted on the 4th lap of a Rivals session, with the exception of the M2B which required me a little bit more to get used to).

Let's start with the more numerous 1966/1967 season cars. There's a cleavage between the lighter, nimble V8s and the more cumbersome V12s, which feel the extra weight especially during corner entry. I am afraid any upgrade would end up changing dramatically the way those cars drive; I'd therefore suggest (as I already did in the Formula Mazda thread) a handicap strategy in order to ensure there's some balance of performance.


With a 01:54,602 laptime, the Brabham BT24 is the fastest car of the lot. Its Repco engine is very torque-y at low revs, allowing to drive the car with the right foot; it is, however, underpowered (producing a "mere" 330 hp), thus making the BT24 slower than its direct opponent (the Lotus) on the Back Straight, and it's not the most stable car either, easily losing balance over kerbs. The suicidally brave (or a very good tuner) may turn the BT24 in a force to be reckoned with. A front grip penalty could be used to bring it back in check.


The Eagle T1G is the second-slowest car, with a laptime of 01:55,530. While it has plenty of power that allows it to easily reach 300kph on the Back Straight, the extra 200 pounds over its V8 rivals are... Heavy on its driving balance. Its torque curve makes it very drivable, despite that, but I'd be surprised to see the T1G come on top of a racing series.


The RA300 was the slowest car of the pack, with a 01:55,825 laptime. Its handling is very mild and confidence-inspiring, but it's a bit of a whale on slow corners, and torque's only available at higher revs. Also, despite being the most powerful car in its division, it really struggles to reach 280kph on the Back Straight (something I believe is due to its gear ratios, however). If push comes to shove, a rear grip handicap could make it more prone to slide and, thus, bring it closer to the competition.


The Lotus 49 feels essentially like a faster, but slightly less nimble BT24 - and its laptime of 01:54,849 is the second fastest. There's not really much else to say; it's another car that's best maneuvered with the right foot and opposite lock steering. Its speed on the Back Straight is on par with the Eagle T1G - not surprising, considering the similar power output (404 v. 410 hp).


Finally, there's the thorny issue in balancing a 60s F1 series: the McLaren M2B. Widely believed to be an "inferior" car, it's surely different from the rest of the pack; especially in its power output. It's hard to get her to slide properly, and where even the "slow" Honda does 280kph on the Back Straight, the M2B struggles to reach 270. However, its mild handling could make it the perfect car for people who may be scared by the Brabham or the Lotus. And as far as laptimes go: sure, it took me a bit longer to get used to the car, but I managed to do a lap of VIR in 01:55,401, which makes this the third fastest GP legend.

Of course, take my observations and laptimes with a pinch of salt, as they're only the product of a quick comparison, and I haven't tried to implement any of the proposed handicaps and see if they served their intended purpose. Perhaps a more in-depth study would be in order. But I figured that a baseline comparison would be helpful.

Good stuff! I did some runs on Laguna Seca to get an idea too.
1st - Brabham - 1:29.745
2nd - Honda - 1:29.783
3rd - Eagle - 1:30.040
4th - Lotus - 1:30.360
5th - McLaren - 1:30.579

I then decided to play around with the upgrades a bit to see if I could even them up.
1st - Brabham - 1:29.745 - Stock
2nd - McLaren - 1:29.751 - Race Valves and Race Ignition
3rd - Honda - 1:29.783 - Stock
4th - Eagle - 1:29.882 - 275 Rear Tire Width
5th - Lotus - 1:29.891 - 235 Front Tire Width and 285 Rear Tire Width

Pretty even. Honda and McLaren are easy to drive, Eagle is nicest to drive, Brabham and Lotus more raw.

I'm sure each persons results are going to be a little different, due to their own personal preference and driving styles.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll race whenever I can. On the subject of tuning, I think it would be easier for those who aren't good at tuning, to have whatever we race, set the PI at 600,700, 800 etc. Its easier to find multiple tunes to try out and see which one fits the best for whatever track is next. You don't find many tunes that are just a random number, they are almost all tuned to the top of the class.

Would be completely dependent on the series. Some would run specific upgrades to get to the same PI whereas the tune that is downloaded probably doesn't follow the same series regs. There should be enough of us making a few different tunes though.

The other idea I had was with the one make series, having a locked tune. So you just buy the car and download the series tune from the storefront, and run it as is. More about learning the car, then tuning it. Everybody would have a level playing field too.

As far as liveries go, I'd rather just find one that someone made, or use a normal color. I don't think it should be mandatory for someone to have to design their own. But if it is, I'll deal with it.

I have no problems with liveries being downloaded. As long as 2 people don't use the same one (excluding team series).

 

[ClydeYellow]

I think one of the only reason most people were using the same tune was because it was the best one for the car. That would be the only potential downfall with a tuning championship. If one person had a significantly better tune, everyone would want to use it.

That's true; however, it's also true that there was not much incentive to try and out-tune Lukas, as he's just too fast of a racer anyways; we mortals could only pick up his tune and fight for second (and eventually, third).
Jokes aside, the Formula Mazda was a spec series; in a non-spec, what I'm afraid may happen is that there would be no incentive for a tuner to work on a car he's not racing in - something that happens even in racing groups such as TORA where the car the best tuners pick end up being far more competitive than the others. Of course the adoption of a tuner championship would also be dependent on the size of the grid - but I'm confident we could easily have a 12-14 car grid in the next series, probably larger if we decide to see if someone over at the fm.net forums is interested.

Liveries will be open. If people want to make some they can, but if people prefer to download them that'll be fine too.
Probably be series dependent too. Some series using the same basic design, others free choice, and some with replica liveries only.
Numberboards and series logo's will come after we decide on the series, times, specs etc. That said, I'll definitely try and work with people to get some nice ones put together.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm all for open liveries - I was just saying that I'd be available for requests if people wanted a personalized design (as I'm already doing the basic groundwork to provide some preset options), and to work on numberboards and such.

I then decided to play around with the upgrades a bit to see if I could even them up.
1st - Brabham - 1:29.745 - Stock
2nd - McLaren - 1:29.751 - Race Valves and Race Ignition
3rd - Honda - 1:29.783 - Stock
4th - Eagle - 1:29.882 - 275 Rear Tire Width
5th - Lotus - 1:29.891 - 235 Front Tire Width and 285 Rear Tire Width

Pretty even. Honda and McLaren are easy to drive, Eagle is nicest to drive, Brabham and Lotus more raw.

Agree on your observations; the Eagle is probably the most balanced car of the lot. I'll try those builds soon.

 

[Im_Lukas]

I was honestly quite surprised to see so many of you using my tunes, I only really uploaded them so worst case scenario there's at least 1 tune there for people who just wanted to download one that's at least semi-tailored towards the track we're racing. I'm still very much a beginner to tuning, whenever we reach a new iteration of GT or Forza I always try to find something new to work on, GT5P it was learning to use no TCS, GT5 it was using manual (I've been told this is an odd order to do them two ), FM4 I worked out the clutch, FM5 it was no ABS, and reaching FM6 I had nothing left so decided I'm going to learn to tune, it's really useful especially when you just want to adapt a car further to suit your driving style and then knowing exactly what settings can help with that.

--

I'm actually quite interested in the 1930's Grand Prix cars so I'm going to give them a go tonight and report back some lap times, and if required/if I get round to it some potential balancing solutions for that category. The only oddball in this section would be the new Alfa Romeo P3 as it doesn't stand a chance against the Auto Union and co. and I feel that upgrading it too much would lose a lot of it's character so for now I probably won't include the Alfa in testing.

Expect an update later today, although no photos, I just can't work out photo mode so it's best left to those who can.

 

[Populuxe]

Expect an update later today, although no photos, I just can't work out photo mode so it's best left to those who can.

Maybe that should be your goal for FM7. Learn photography.

You might as well do the P3 if only to confirm it's out of it's class. Also, the 1952 Ferrari Grand Prix car might be a good candidate for this class.

 

[Im_Lukas]

Maybe that should be your goal for FM7. Learn photography.

I may do when we get that far, at the moment whenever I enter photo mode it usually ends with the phrase "I suppose that will do".

--

Anyway I did run both the P3 and 1952 Ferrari as well as the others with some laps on Brands Hatch GP and Watkins Glen Full without the bus stop chicane, took note of lap times and the top speed reached on Watkins Glen, along with a few thoughts on each car. Brought to you by Excel with added colours :

*If the straight was longer the Auto Union would have blown by the Mercedes in terms of top speed, it was just let down by the extremely long gearing.

The Auto Union and Mercedes are already well balanced until you reach even longer straights, the Ferrari struggles a lot with traction out of slower corners but handles high speed corners better than the others so was pretty close to the AU and MB on Brands but on Watkins it just gained too much in the faster corners for them to keep up. The Maserati feels really quick when driving it so it was a surprise to see it not keeping up with it's rivals, acceleration is good but once up to speed it gets left behind.

The Alfa doesn't stand a chance against these but it is ridiculously good fun to drive, could possibly make a very fun spec series 👍.

I intend to work on balancing the Maserati with the AU and MB another day, I think the Ferrari's only hope of being balanced is to constantly drive tracks where the lack of traction at low speeds is going to hinder it enough to counteract the advantage it gains in faster corners.

 

[Populuxe]

I may do when we get that far, at the moment whenever I enter photo mode it usually ends with the phrase "I suppose that will do".

You'd be surprised how often my photo shoots end with the exact same phrase.

Very interesting numbers. I think the most interesting thing is how competitive the Maserati is considering it's down 8 to 11 mph on top speed at Watkins Glen. It's only off by a second or two. If we do a race series with these cars, then I would still like the P3 to be eligible. Yes, whoever is driving it is going to come in last, but races have always had back markers in uncompetitive or outdated machinery. What I'm getting at is I wanna drive the P3!

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

Sorry, I meant to reply to this a few days ago but I've suddenly gotten very busy recently so I had no time! Anyways, I'll start with some responses and then move to my own thoughts/suggestions:

Continuing on from what @ClydeYellow mentioned in the Spec GTP thread, the aim is to have a large enough group of people to run a series that caters to both the European and American contingent.
What that will most likely entail is (similar to what GP2 used to do) a portion of the series being run at one time and another portion running at a different time. They would rotate from week to week, meaning that participants who elect to only run in one of the 'mini series' would be racing fortnightly.
Both 'mini-series' would have their own points table as well as combined table for those who are able to run both.

As for what time each of these 'mini series' are run at, I'll leave that up for discussion. Also, their may be need for a different host for each 'mini series'.

This series will be for everyone to have some fun with. There's nothing at stake. So it doesn't matter if you are lapping in the top 50 or just trying to get a clean lap, everyone is welcomed and encouraged to participate.

*There will be more added here once the polls start to decide what will happen.

I was actually thinking of something similar to this recently also. I think in general, the different time schedule is very tough so it's better to try and split things up, even if it ends up reducing the grid in each room, just to help people be able to make it consistently.

I know you missed a few races in the Mazda due to missing an alarm, and as @SlipZtrEm said, they ended up right in the middle of the afternoon for him (and smack in the middle of the day for me) so the timing was a compromise for everyone.

Something I've also thought about with that is doing an actuall say European Championship and an American Championship, that run concurrently but in appropriate times, and running tracks to match! So the Euro one would hit Spa, Nurburgring, Silverstone, etc, while us Yanks hit VIR, Daytona, Laguna Seca, and so forth. Then, at the end, you could have one or two 'fly away' races that combine the grids in a neutral location, like Bathurst or Yas Marina, and try to get everyone on track at once for a Euro vs American battle royale.

Anyways, that was just a thought. Obviously both would be open to anyone, and if you wanted to run both you could, but the timing would be set to favor the appropriate time zones.

As it happens, I would be more than happy to host the American side of things, however they go doen, as long as the timing works out.

I'll add a list here and we will organize to run a few sessions this week/weekend to decide;

One-make Series​

- Audi TT Cup
- Nissan Juke Trophy
- Porsche Supercup / Carrera Cup (DLC)
- Lamborghini Super Trofeo
- Maserati GT Trofeo (DLC)
- Ferrari Challenge
- Fiat 500 Cup
- Formula E
- BMW M235i Cup
- Clio Cup
- Megane Trophy
- Exige Trophy
- HQ Series
- Formula 1
- 1980's Grand Prix
- 1990's IndyCar
- 1950's Grand Prix
- Ford SuperVan Challenge
-

Other Series​

- *GT3-esque Series
- 1960's Grand Prix
- 1970's Grand Prix
- *Production Cars
- V8 Supercars
- BTCC
- *TCR Series
- *Touring Car Masters
- *WEC / WSCC
- *NASCAR
- IMSA GTO
- 1930's Grand Prix
- 1950's Le Mans
-


* car build tba

All of these look fairly interesting to me, but I'll cherry pick. From top to bottom, the five of each that interest me (most to least):

One Makes:
Porsche Supercup / Carrera Cup
Lamborghini Super Trofeo
Ford SuperVan Challenge
Clio Cup
Maserati GT Trofeo

Other Series
WEC / WSCC
GT3-esque Series
1960's Grand Prix
IMSA GTO
V8 Supercars


As far as builds for the other series, I think that for a WEC-ish series (or for a GT3/GTLM style thing), you could easily have just an R865 limit for GT. You can build all the GT3/GTLM/GTC/GT500/GT1 cars to R865 and they seem fairly competetive with each other at that level, so with a small amount of testing it should be pretty easy to balance at that level.

For the WEC, I think P998 is the only way to go. The 919 and R18 and 908 all hit that, and while the TS040 is stuck at 994(?) it's close enough that someone could easily use it. Again, a slight amount of testing would be required.

Now, if people have some series idea's and/or builds they want to put forward for the next series we run, now is the chance.

It's worth noting that with the Corvette DP, we could try a series like the TUSCC. I've managed to balance the Ford and the 'Vette pretty well at P975, and you can get the Toyota Rebellion to that number too, and it's fairly similar-ish in performance (more testing required) to the DPs, so you could do a 3-class split along something like:
P975 - Prototype
R865 - GT Le Mans
R815 - GT Daytona

Also, with the XJR-9 and the 962 partnering with the 905, 787, and F333, it seems like we could bend history a little bit and do a historic multi-class type thing, with the old Group 5 GT cars and the Group C prototypes (and maybe the IMSA GTO cars too). I have no idea what the balancing for that would look like, but it'd be a really cool series to run, no?

Final idea would be for Can-Am. Because engines.


Of all of these, the multi-class ones appeal to me by far the most, but I think they also require by far the most interest. Not that a 10 car grid split in 2 classes would be terrible, but it wouldn't probably be as good as a 10 car grid in one class.

I really want to run something with different classes though. I've tried several times in several iterations of Forza and it's never gotten off the ground. I'd like to see it work out for once!

Failing that, as I said all the series seem interesting. I think after the Mazda, we have a lot of room to move up or down in speed, since that was quick but not that difficult to drive. It'd be interesting to see how much the field tightens (if at all) in slower cars, or cars that are harder to drive.


Well, that's probably enough for one post!

 

[GTracer38]

Anyway I did run both the P3 and 1952 Ferrari as well as the others with some laps on Brands Hatch GP and Watkins Glen Full without the bus stop chicane, took note of lap times and the top speed reached on Watkins Glen, along with a few thoughts on each car. Brought to you by Excel with added colours :

View attachment 526863
*If the straight was longer the Auto Union would have blown by the Mercedes in terms of top speed, it was just let down by the extremely long gearing.

The Auto Union and Mercedes are already well balanced until you reach even longer straights, the Ferrari struggles a lot with traction out of slower corners but handles high speed corners better than the others so was pretty close to the AU and MB on Brands but on Watkins it just gained too much in the faster corners for them to keep up. The Maserati feels really quick when driving it so it was a surprise to see it not keeping up with it's rivals, acceleration is good but once up to speed it gets left behind.

The Alfa doesn't stand a chance against these but it is ridiculously good fun to drive, could possibly make a very fun spec series 👍.

I intend to work on balancing the Maserati with the AU and MB another day, I think the Ferrari's only hope of being balanced is to constantly drive tracks where the lack of traction at low speeds is going to hinder it enough to counteract the advantage it gains in faster corners.

I don't have the Maserati, Auto Union or Ferrari so I'll that up to you but that is another great series to run.
With the Ferarri, it might be worth seeing if the multiplayer grip/power handicaps can even it up with the others.
For the Alfa, could it be upgraded enough to be competitive?

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Sorry, I meant to reply to this a few days ago but I've suddenly gotten very busy recently so I had no time! Anyways, I'll start with some responses and then move to my own thoughts/suggestions:

I was actually thinking of something similar to this recently also. I think in general, the different time schedule is very tough so it's better to try and split things up, even if it ends up reducing the grid in each room, just to help people be able to make it consistently.

I know you missed a few races in the Mazda due to missing an alarm, and as @SlipZtrEm said, they ended up right in the middle of the afternoon for him (and smack in the middle of the day for me) so the timing was a compromise for everyone.

I think the idea of having a split-timezone series is a popular one.

Something I've also thought about with that is doing an actual say European Championship and an American Championship, that run concurrently but in appropriate times, and running tracks to match! So the Euro one would hit Spa, Nurburgring, Silverstone, etc, while us Yanks hit VIR, Daytona, Laguna Seca, and so forth. Then, at the end, you could have one or two 'fly away' races that combine the grids in a neutral location, like Bathurst or Yas Marina, and try to get everyone on track at once for a Euro vs American battle royale.

Anyways, that was just a thought. Obviously both would be open to anyone, and if you wanted to run both you could, but the timing would be set to favor the appropriate time zones.

👍

As it happens, I would be more than happy to host the American side of things, however they go down, as long as the timing works out.

Good stuff!

All of these look fairly interesting to me, but I'll cherry pick. From top to bottom, the five of each that interest me (most to least):

One Makes:
Porsche Supercup / Carrera Cup
Lamborghini Super Trofeo
Ford SuperVan Challenge
Clio Cup
Maserati GT Trofeo

Other Series
WEC / WSCC
GT3-esque Series
1960's Grand Prix
IMSA GTO
V8 Supercars

Noted

As far as builds for the other series, I think that for a WEC-ish series (or for a GT3/GTLM style thing), you could easily have just an R865 limit for GT. You can build all the GT3/GTLM/GTC/GT500/GT1 cars to R865 and they seem fairly competetive with each other at that level, so with a small amount of testing it should be pretty easy to balance at that level.

For the WEC, I think P998 is the only way to go. The 919 and R18 and 908 all hit that, and while the TS040 is stuck at 994(?) it's close enough that someone could easily use it. Again, a slight amount of testing would be required.

A results based BOP system might be an idea for the GT's. As for the Prototypes, I'm hesitant to upgrade them unless the Nissan can keep pace *reasonably* well.

It's worth noting that with the Corvette DP, we could try a series like the TUSCC. I've managed to balance the Ford and the 'Vette pretty well at P975, and you can get the Toyota Rebellion to that number too, and it's fairly similar-ish in performance (more testing required) to the DPs, so you could do a 3-class split along something like:
P975 - Prototype
R865 - GT Le Mans
R815 - GT Daytona

Either that or have all the GT's built to the same spec with an in lobby power and grip handicap for GTD competitors.
Also, add the Mazda Lola for the DP/P2 category.

Also, with the XJR-9 and the 962 partnering with the 905, 787, and F333, it seems like we could bend history a little bit and do a historic multi-class type thing, with the old Group 5 GT cars and the Group C prototypes (and maybe the IMSA GTO cars too). I have no idea what the balancing for that would look like, but it'd be a really cool series to run, no?

For sure. It would be interesting to see if the Ferrari fit in, but it might be better off against the BMW and co. I'm not sure.

Final idea would be for Can-Am. Because engines.

Of course!

Of all of these, the multi-class ones appeal to me by far the most, but I think they also require by far the most interest. Not that a 10 car grid split in 2 classes would be terrible, but it wouldn't probably be as good as a 10 car grid in one class.

I really want to run something with different classes though. I've tried several times in several iterations of Forza and it's never gotten off the ground. I'd like to see it work out for once!

If we can build a decent amount of consistent entries, then I think we could have a multi-class series but until then it might be a bit dull.

Failing that, as I said all the series seem interesting. I think after the Mazda, we have a lot of room to move up or down in speed, since that was quick but not that difficult to drive. It'd be interesting to see how much the field tightens (if at all) in slower cars, or cars that are harder to drive.

Well, that's probably enough for one post!

Thanks for the input!

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I'll add a poll tomorrow for the split timezone series as well as upload my Audi TT Trophy and Carrera Cup builds.

 

[ClydeYellow]

Something I've also thought about with that is doing an actuall say European Championship and an American Championship, that run concurrently but in appropriate times, and running tracks to match! So the Euro one would hit Spa, Nurburgring, Silverstone, etc, while us Yanks hit VIR, Daytona, Laguna Seca, and so forth. Then, at the end, you could have one or two 'fly away' races that combine the grids in a neutral location, like Bathurst or Yas Marina, and try to get everyone on track at once for a Euro vs American battle royale.

Anyways, that was just a thought. Obviously both would be open to anyone, and if you wanted to run both you could, but the timing would be set to favor the appropriate time zones.

That's a very good idea; IIRC TORA does something like that with their TCC / NATCC duo (with the TCC racing at 20:00 GMT and the NATCC racing at 20:00 EST; however, they usually race on the same tracks). However, I think it'd properly work only if we managed to get the numbers to have at least 5-6 cars per championship. We could always keep the idea of a double championship "in storage" for the future, perhaps.

Also, keep in mind that not everybody will have VIR - however, with the variety of situations the circuit offers, we could use it for pre-season testing. And besides, it'd also be a good excuse to hold a non-championship ROC-style race in the case of formulas like the 60s F1 cars.

Also, with the XJR-9 and the 962 partnering with the 905, 787, and F333, it seems like we could bend history a little bit and do a historic multi-class type thing, with the old Group 5 GT cars and the Group C prototypes (and maybe the IMSA GTO cars too). I have no idea what the balancing for that would look like, but it'd be a really cool series to run, no?

Hm. We already have four IMSA GTO cars (the Audi, the Mazda, the Mercury and the Nissan) and four GTP cars of various eras (the XJR-9, 962, 787B and F333SP); and there may also be further old IMSA steel coming down the line. Trying to balance the much older Group 5 cars into this grid would be an impervious task, and I think it's not necessary as we'd already have an interesting grid as it is. Maybe we could consider a DRM series, with the Capri Turbo and the Beta Montecarlo having raced in the DRM and the 512BB which faced the Lancia in IMSA races and at Le Mans?

.


Anyways, I decided to try and see if my old "fun-C-class" Abarth 500 build could serve as the base for a fun, easy-to-drive Trofeo build. Turns out that it does. It's a B-550 build with all adjustable parts but the brakes, and racing tires fitted. I'll upload the build later in the day; I'll also put the paint on the Sharefront for those who want it. It's still an early setup, and I'm yet to do any fine adjustments: I'd like to reduce its tendency to cook up the front tires and its nervousness over kerbs before calling it a job done.

 

[Im_Lukas]

I don't have the Maserati, Auto Union or Ferrari so I'll that up to you but that is another great series to run.
With the Ferarri, it might be worth seeing if the multiplayer grip/power handicaps can even it up with the others.
For the Alfa, could it be upgraded enough to be competitive?

I'm not too familiar with the grip handicaps but I can have a play around in the next days, although first I want to give each car another run but on a faster track like Daytona as I feel that's where the Auto Union and Mercedes will shine.

The Alfa could certainly be upgraded enough to be competitive but I'll have to have a look which kind of build keeps it closest to the other cars.

 

[GTracer38]

Okay first things first, the poll is up (or will be in a moment lol). EDIT: You get 2 votes in the poll. Use one for each part and choose wisely.

Now for a couple of one-make builds I've had sitting around for a while. I'm not exactly sure what the PI and build specs are as I type, but I'll update that later. All builds are shared under the gamertag 'MadRacer38' and the description 'gtp' and/or 'bdr'

Porsche Supercup / Carrera Cup
Car: Porsche 991 Turbo (DLC) - around R849
The car is ready to go and tuned. The idea was that that this could be run as a locked build series or have open tuning.

Audi TT Cup
Car: Newest Audi TT built to about A679
The idea was for this to be a locked build or tuning only series. Also potentially running a series spec livery.

Nissan Juke Trophy
Car: derrr... built to B600 (because I wanted to have a spare b-class car lol)
Meant to be a locked build and spec livery short series, potentially used as a fun, lenient ruled support category.

Anyways, I decided to try and see if my old "fun-C-class" Abarth 500 build could serve as the base for a fun, easy-to-drive Trofeo build. Turns out that it does. It's a B-550 build with all adjustable parts but the brakes, and racing tires fitted. I'll upload the build later in the day; I'll also put the paint on the Sharefront for those who want it. It's still an early setup, and I'm yet to do any fine adjustments: I'd like to reduce its tendency to cook up the front tires and its nervousness over kerbs before calling it a job done.

Looks like we have builds to compare
Abarth Trofeo 500
Car: pictured everywhere... built to around C486
Meant to be very limited tuning options, and a fun class more then anything.

A few more to come of course, but we should organize to have a bit of a run with these this week

 

[Im_Lukas]

A little bit of balancing done today, I've managed to get the Maserati to match the stock Auto Union and Mercedes around Brands Hatch and Watkins Glen, the only problem is that if we race tracks like Daytona/Le Mans they all become unbalanced again. Just around the Daytona layout without the bus stop chicane the AU was 0.75 quicker than the MB, which was then another 0.5 quicker than the upgraded Maserati.

The upgraded Maserati is a little slower on top speed for Watkins Glen (only reaching 168 mph) but it makes up for it in the slower corners to keep it within range. One big problem with balancing these cars is that the Maserati is so much lighter than the other 2, meaning it excels in areas the other 2 struggle.

I tried to stick with upgrades which wouldn't alter the handling characteristics of the Maserati too much, and in the end they were:
Race Ignition
Race Displacement

Just about gives the Maserati enough power on the straights to level it out, it's still down on power overall but the lower weight helps with acceleration. IIRC this brings it to 614 PI.

Next up: trying to get the Ferrari to fit in with this group , and then after I've attempted that I will try the Alfa.

 

[GTracer38]

The idea might be to not have them match up perfectly but have one car be a little stronger at one track, and vice versa. So if the AU is better on the big tracks (Daytona, Monza...etc) but worse on the smaller/tighter tracks (Lime Rock, Long Beach...etc) then they could be balanced out over a series.

Trying to have them identical everywhere is a nightmare and would probably require more then one build for the cars being matched into the series (Maserati, Alfa, Ferrari).

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

So I spent a few hours testing tonight with the modern GT car, and my suspicion that they were all fairly close at R865 was correct.

I lapped all of them at Yas Marina, which does slightly favor top speed, but here's the results:
Huracan 2:12.169
RSR 2:12.207 (2:11.996)
458 GTLM 2:12.426
Z4 GTE 2:12.194
C7.R 2:12.341
DBR9 2:12.227
12C GT3 2:12.441
Continental GT3 2:12.674
R35 GTR 2:12.418
Viper GTS-R 2:12.376
R8 LMS 2:12.323
Gallardo ST 2:12.229
SLS AMG GT3 2:12.079
M3 GT2 2:12.061

The RSR time in parentheses was uncertified because of an off around the marina on the previous lap. I tried to replicate it certified and got too frustrated, so I gave up. Had a flyer that lap or something.

Either way, the SLS, M3, Continental, and Huracan are all faster on the straights than the other cars (not a lot, but enough to notice) but in general it seems everything is fairly even, af least enough so that it would come down to the driver on the day as much as anything else.

The Continental is wierd to drive. I could probably shave some time there but couldn't be assed.

If I'm equally bored after work tomorrow I'll run them all somewhere else.

So, Thoughts?

 

[ClydeYellow]

A little bit of balancing done today, I've managed to get the Maserati to match the stock Auto Union and Mercedes around Brands Hatch and Watkins Glen, the only problem is that if we race tracks like Daytona/Le Mans they all become unbalanced again. Just around the Daytona layout without the bus stop chicane the AU was 0.75 quicker than the MB, which was then another 0.5 quicker than the upgraded Maserati

I wouldn't worry too much about that, we could always use power handicaps to bring the cars back on the same level for very fast races.

Abarth tune v. 0.1 is now available.

 

[Populuxe]

So, Thoughts?

When do we start?

 

[GTracer38]

So I spent a few hours testing tonight with the modern GT car, and my suspicion that they were all fairly close at R865 was correct.

I lapped all of them at Yas Marina, which does slightly favor top speed, but here's the results:
Huracan 2:12.169
RSR 2:12.207 (2:11.996)
458 GTLM 2:12.426
Z4 GTE 2:12.194
C7.R 2:12.341
DBR9 2:12.227
12C GT3 2:12.441
Continental GT3 2:12.674
R35 GTR 2:12.418
Viper GTS-R 2:12.376
R8 LMS 2:12.323
Gallardo ST 2:12.229
SLS AMG GT3 2:12.079
M3 GT2 2:12.061

The RSR time in parentheses was uncertified because of an off around the marina on the previous lap. I tried to replicate it certified and got too frustrated, so I gave up. Had a flyer that lap or something.

Either way, the SLS, M3, Continental, and Huracan are all faster on the straights than the other cars (not a lot, but enough to notice) but in general it seems everything is fairly even, af least enough so that it would come down to the driver on the day as much as anything else.

The Continental is wierd to drive. I could probably shave some time there but couldn't be assed.

If I'm equally bored after work tomorrow I'll run them all somewhere else.

So, Thoughts?

Needs more Maserati
Actually, can that car get upgraded enough...? I should check in minute.

If they are that equal the that should be the next series. (Nearly) Everybody likes GT's and it gives us time to organise some of the builds from others.

 

[ClydeYellow]

If they are that equal the that should be the next series. (Nearly) Everybody likes GT's and it gives us time to organise some of the builds from others.

Fine by me; if we already have a rock-solid BOP for GT cars (and it seems we do) it'd be a great idea; else, we could always run any of the spec series, for which creating a BOP isn't necessary.

Any idea for a potential calendar? I'd say that we could stick to GT racing for the next couple of months, which would give us plenty of time to not only do the eventual refinements to the GT formula, but also prepare others, as you suggested. So... 8 races, 4 American and 4 European?

 

[TripleA5]

I'm interested in this, so count me in.

 

[GTracer38]

The Maserati makes it to R865

Fine by me; if we already have a rock-solid BOP for GT cars (and it seems we do) it'd be a great idea; else, we could always run any of the spec series, for which creating a BOP isn't necessary.

Any idea for a potential calendar? I'd say that we could stick to GT racing for the next couple of months, which would give us plenty of time to not only do the eventual refinements to the GT formula, but also prepare others, as you suggested. So... 8 races, 4 American and 4 European?

Yeah, that sounds like a good plan. Did you want to run your 60's Grand Prix race before that starts?



What do people think? Get a GT series up and running? How many rounds (8, 10, 12 etc)? Track suggestions? ...I should put another poll up next Monday for a couple things.

 

[ClydeYellow]

The Maserati makes it to R865

And I'm calling dibs on it.

Yeah, that sounds like a good plan. Did you want to run your 60's Grand Prix race before that starts?

Hm, GT racing sounds like something everybody could get onboard and have fun with, and besides, it seems like we have a good BOP for the series. The GP Legends formula could probably use some refinement; and besides, I'm not sure I'm up for racing open-wheelers again.

We could have a couple of "feeler" short events before or after the actual races. Or during weekdays if there's enough people available. As I don't think T10 will do significant changes to the physics or performance rating system in the future I believe getting those formulas down pat now would be a wise investment, so to speak.

Same goes for @Im_Lukas Pre-War GPs and the various specifications I'm sure we all have in mind.

What do people think? Get a GT series up and running? How many rounds (8, 10, 12 etc)? Track suggestions? ...I should put another poll up next Monday for a couple things.

I haven't tried @HighSeasHoMastr builds yet, but if the GT cars behave anything like they do in stock form, I'd go for fast tracks with as few tight corners as possible; namely:

• Virginia International Raceway (maybe as a non-championship race?);
• Watkins Glen;
• Road Atlanta;
• COTA;
• Monza;
• Hockenheim;
• Spa;
• Le Mans Bugatti.

This would eventually lead to a series that, as a whole, only has five corners that I'd judge hard-to-negotiate in a GT car from my experience: Turn 1 and 12 in Austin, Hockenheim's Spitzkehre and La Chappelle and Garage Vert in Le Mans. However, we'd still have a nice mix of super-fast and more technical circuits.
I'd avoid the Nurburgring Gp-Strecke like the plague; the first sector is a PITA in GTs.

 

[Populuxe]

I'd avoid the Nurburgring Gp-Strecke like the plague; the first sector is a PITA in GTs.

That's probably true, but it's also the only part of the track that would be a pain. I think the rest of the course makes up for it.

 

[Fat Tyre]

Hi, I forgot to reply. Count me in! I'll bring my own blue flags with me. I think @TokoTurismo and @RacerPaul might be interested as well. They are very clean racers too.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

Sorry! Again, meant to post earlier but it's been crazy busy for me lately. Anyways, here we go:

Needs more Maserati
Actually, can that car get upgraded enough...? I should check in minute.

I totally forgot about the Maser. I'll build it quick tonight and check it just to make sure it's close to similar.

EDIT: While it gets to 865, I don't think the Maser is particularly competitive. It's phenomenally fast on the straights, but it just doesn't have the braking or cornering that the proper GTs have. Only managed a 2:13.259 at Yas in it and it was ~8mph up on even the Bentley on the first straight.
I'd say someone is welcome to try it, and at Monza or Daytona it might work, but I suspect you'd be in for a struggle.

If they are that equal the that should be the next series. (Nearly) Everybody likes GT's and it gives us time to organise some of the builds from others.

Well, it's one track, but I'd say that they're probably close enough for a fairly casual series. If we get a couple in and one is way too good we can BOP it down.

Which segways nicely to another suggestion: Rewards BOP. @Im_Lukas might not like it but it's worth considering!

Fine by me; if we already have a rock-solid BOP for GT cars (and it seems we do) it'd be a great idea; else, we could always run any of the spec series, for which creating a BOP isn't necessary.

Rock solid maybe not, but pretty good and easy to throw together at least.

Any idea for a potential calendar? I'd say that we could stick to GT racing for the next couple of months, which would give us plenty of time to not only do the eventual refinements to the GT formula, but also prepare others, as you suggested. So... 8 races, 4 American and 4 European?
I haven't tried @HighSeasHoMastr builds yet, but if the GT cars behave anything like they do in stock form, I'd go for fast tracks with as few tight corners as possible; namely:

• Virginia International Raceway (maybe as a non-championship race?);
• Watkins Glen;
• Road Atlanta;
• COTA;
• Monza;
• Hockenheim;
• Spa;
• Le Mans Bugatti.

This would eventually lead to a series that, as a whole, only has five corners that I'd judge hard-to-negotiate in a GT car from my experience: Turn 1 and 12 in Austin, Hockenheim's Spitzkehre and La Chappelle and Garage Vert in Le Mans. However, we'd still have a nice mix of super-fast and more technical circuits.
I'd avoid the Nurburgring Gp-Strecke like the plague; the first sector is a PITA in GTs.

I like some of these, but I really, really hate Le Mans Bugatti

My suggestion would be:

1. Watkins Glen - Spa
2. COTA - Silverstone
3. Daytona - Monza
4. Road Atlanta - Hockenheim
5. Nurburgring Nordschleife as the unified non-points end-of-season fun event

This keeps the idea of not having any really arsey corners for the most part, and it keeps the schedule running similar-ish tracks between the two slots.


In general though, I don't really agree that the GTs are that hard to get around slow corners. They all have a lot of grip and as long as you're not just giving it the full boot and hoping for the best you'll be fine.
I'll go through and post up all my builds tonight so everyone can try them out.

We could have a couple of "feeler" short events before or after the actual races. Or during weekdays if there's enough people available. As I don't think T10 will do significant changes to the physics or performance rating system in the future I believe getting those formulas down pat now would be a wise investment, so to speak.

I would definitely be up for this, or any kind of testing. If you guys see me on and I'm not in a party, send me an invite and I'll probably jump in.

 

[Populuxe]

I've got some bad news. I've been living in a rental house for the last 8 or 9 years, and the owner just let me know I have to be out by May 1st. I've got so much stuff to move and so many things to do to get this done, so I won't be available for racing until at least May.

 

[ClydeYellow]

1. Watkins Glen - Spa
2. COTA - Silverstone
3. Daytona - Monza
4. Road Atlanta - Hockenheim
5. Nurburgring Nordschleife as the unified non-points end-of-season fun event

Hm, I'd maybe swap Daytona for Road America and run the full 24h layout instead of just the Nordschleife; other than that, it seems like a really good calendar. Maybe we could make that last race a bit longer?

In general though, I don't really agree that the GTs are that hard to get around slow corners. They all have a lot of grip and as long as you're not just giving it the full boot and hoping for the best you'll be fine.

I agree, GTs require a lot of finesse, sharp, precise driving. I prefer to drive older cars in Forza, and my preferences and my trail-braking, right-foot-driving habits are costing me precious time with GT cars.

I've got some bad news. I've been living in a rental house for the last 8 or 9 years, and the owner just let me know I have to be out by May 1st. I've got so much stuff to move and so many things to do to get this done, so I won't be available for racing until at least May.

First and foremost: your owner is a fool, and you should eat him.

Mass-Effect inspired jokes aside, anyone in favor of delaying the beginning of the next series until Pop can join us? We could do something else in the meanwhile, like testing, or spec racing.

One last thing: how should we decide whether or not race in the rain for the circuits that have the option available? I was thinking that we could have a random draw based on the weather forecast data for the interested tracks. That would keep things interesting.