Best British Car (National Car Thread 1, Now With Poll)

[neanderthal]

i say give it a fixed time, say two weeks. that way people can chat, argue, sway others etc, then give the final five a one week shot.

i understand what M5Power is saying here.
while the transit is a successful vehicle in the UK and to a lesser extent in europe, its not THAT significant that it should be considered in a "Best British Car" thread. just like while the F series is commercially viable and successful, it really hasnt done anything worthy of being voted "best american vehicle" either. but thats for another thread.

imo cars that really belong in this are cars that significantly move the game on (new range rover, current astra, 1994 dodge ram etc, honda NSX) , breed a whole new viable chunk of automobile (chrylser minivan and renault espace, honda NSX (reliable exotic) again) boundary breakers (mini, bug, original lexus LS 400) cars that show the way forward (citroen DS, mini, RAV4 (dont laugh at that. it pretty much pioneered the soft roader!)) etc etc etc. cars that are significant and truly representative of the pride of a country's auto industry. thats my 2 cents

 

[Scaff]

i understand what M5Power is saying here.
while the transit is a successful vehicle in the UK and to a lesser extent in europe, its not THAT significant that it should be considered in a "Best British Car" thread. just like while the F series is commercially viable and successful, it really hasnt done anything worthy of being voted "best american vehicle" either. but thats for another thread.

imo cars that really belong in this are cars that significantly move the game on (new range rover, current astra, 1994 dodge ram etc, honda NSX) , breed a whole new viable chunk of automobile (chrylser minivan and renault espace, honda NSX (reliable exotic) again) boundary breakers (mini, bug, original lexus LS 400) cars that show the way forward (citroen DS, mini, RAV4 (dont laugh at that. it pretty much pioneered the soft roader!)) etc etc etc. cars that are significant and truly representative of the pride of a country's auto industry. thats my 2 cents

Which I'm sorry shows a huge misunderstanding of the Transit, I have highlighted three points you make above that the orginal 1960's transit clearly sits right in.

It did significantly move the game on and show(ed) the way forward and is significant and truly representative of the pride of a country's auto industry.

How else would you describe a vehicle that at launch made every competitor obsolete, introduced driving dynamics and well thought out load carrying capacity to a segment that had never experienced them before. Prior to the Transit no LCV had considered the practical applications of its use, the Transit was specifically designed around those that had to use it. The cargo area was designed so it would accept all common pallet sizes, but also to accept the standard sizes of plaster-board used in the building trade. While some may like to mock that these are simple concepts, they were ground-breaking at the time of launch.


It showed the way forward in that it set the mould for every European LCV that followed and still does. It quite clearly was and still is a very significant vehicle to the European and British market place, and certainly is considered a point of pride in the British and European motor industry.

I do wonder how many people here have actually worked with and driven Transits? As to say that the Transit was not significant is quite simply wrong, it was the single most significant LCV every made in Europe.

The reason why I do not believe that the Transit is the "Best British Car" is far more simple, its not a car.

Regards

Scaff

 

[JCE]

YSS do Japan next. My vote might surprise people. 👍

 

[TheCracker]

Perhaps the 'rules' should be a bit clearer.

Are voting for our:

Favourite British car?

The most significant British car?

Or what we belive best sums up a British car?

 

[ExigeEvan]

Umm Doug, I didn't say this

Plenty of Transits get purchased for private use. A large percentage of small motorhomes in Europe are Transit based. A large percentage of F-series sized flat-beds are also a variation of Transit.

The Cracker did. Not that I disagree . Not forgetting that the box on the back is also removed leaving room for a flat bed for light building materials, waste collection etc.

imo cars that really belong in this are cars that significantly move the game on (new range rover, current astra, 1994 dodge ram etc, honda NSX) , breed a whole new viable chunk of automobile (chrylser minivan and renault espace, honda NSX (reliable exotic) again) boundary breakers (mini, bug, original lexus LS 400) cars that show the way forward (citroen DS, mini, RAV4 (dont laugh at that. it pretty much pioneered the soft roader!)) etc etc etc. cars that are significant and truly representative of the pride of a country's auto industry. thats my 2 cents

As Scaff pointed out, you couldn't have been further off the mark.

But could you do me a favour, and explain these two.

new range rover, current astra

1) What day is good for final voting in this thread?
2) What country do we do next (USA, Germany, France, Italy, Japan, etc.)?
3) How long till the top-five cars are picked there?
4) How many days left for voting?

1) Give it a week. Maybe have 5 days nominating, 2 days voting. Short, sharp, sweet.

2) USA will be fun . Japan will get all the Skyline fan boys out and

3+4) read above.

I want to attempt to make this as easy as possible, as I know a lot of us have school starting up again, so I want to get as much in as possible.

I stll got 7 weeks holidays left

 

[Poverty]

Ford transit for the win

 

[Famine]

Which I'm sorry shows a huge misunderstanding of the Transit, I have highlighted three points you make above that the orginal 1960's transit clearly sits right in.

It did significantly move the game on and show(ed) the way forward and is significant and truly representative of the pride of a country's auto industry.

How else would you describe a vehicle that at launch made every competitor obsolete, introduced driving dynamics and well thought out load carrying capacity to a segment that had never experienced them before. Prior to the Transit no LCV had considered the practical applications of its use, the Transit was specifically designed around those that had to use it. The cargo area was designed so it would accept all common pallet sizes, but also to accept the standard sizes of plaster-board used in the building trade. While some may like to mock that these are simple concepts, they were ground-breaking at the time of launch.


It showed the way forward in that it set the mould for every European LCV that followed and still does. It quite clearly was and still is a very significant vehicle to the European and British market place, and certainly is considered a point of pride in the British and European motor industry.

I do wonder how many people here have actually worked with and driven Transits? As to say that the Transit was not significant is quite simply wrong, it was the single most significant LCV every made in Europe.

The reason why I do not believe that the Transit is the "Best British Car" is far more simple, its not a car.

Regards

Scaff

👍

Needs some ticking, but apparently I've got to spread it round first. Ho hum.


However... the worst vehicle I've ever driven, after a 2005 Hyundai Getz, was a Ford Transit. But it's true to say that the Transit's design, from launch, standardised that whole sector in Europe AND Japan - and drove more like a car than anything similar to that point. Everything made now for that purpose follows the design briefs for the original Transit, with just a few more modern and individual touches. It did the same for the light-commercial sector as the Mini did for the hatchback/compact sector and the Miura did for the supercar. Also, there's now over 40 million combinations of Ford Transit bodystyles and engines - if you need to move any stuff at all, it's most likely you'll use a Transit.

So with respect to the fact that it spawned generations of imitators and changed the face of an entire sector of the market across the world, it is one of the best British vehicles of all time. To downplay its significance is foolhardy.

But it's no car.

 

[ExigeEvan]

But it's no car.

The thread is open to makes and models from the given country, and all years at which the cars (or truck, SUV, etc) were produced.

Wasn't sure if anyone else noticed that...

Perhaps a revision for the next country will be to alter the title slightly?

 

[F1GTR]

You guys know where my vote is going.

 

[Famine]

Wasn't sure if anyone else noticed that...

"Truck" for YSSMAN means "SUV" for us, not "van".

 

[IMADreamer]

Thank you sir, I hope we won't have to do the same thing again next-time.



And for the most part, you would be completely right. The overwhelming majority of Americans don't care if their cars can pull 0.9g on the skidpad and accelerate to 60 MPH in less than six-seconds as long as they look good in it, and that is generally all that matters. Throw in some brand preferences that have been either baked-in by the family or by the decidedly anti-American automobile press, and you have a good reason as to why cars like the Toyota Camry and Chevrolet Impala have both sold so well for so long.

Thankfully the British have a greater appreciation for driving than most Americans, and it is a pitty that it turns out that way. Given how vast our country is, it is quite sad that most Americans would choose not to enjoy it by purchasing vehicles like GMC Envoys and Lexus LS460s. The utterly boring win so often in America, it makes me sick sometimes.

I think the reason in American driving is not such a big deal is because of our interstate system and because of the Township and Range system of organizing municipalities and so on. Basically, our roads are straight, boring, and no fun. You hop on an interstate and drive straight to your next destination. If you want to find some good twisties you have to go hunting for them and in the midwest they are hard to find. I can think of two good roads with in 70 miles of my home for spirited driving. Everything else is straight. So Americans aren't concerned with cornering or even great acceleration because it's not needed. You set the cruise control and an hour later you arrive at your destination.

As for the time frame for these topics, I say keep it short. A week tops. Two weeks may drag it out too long and people would lose interest. I say three days of discussion, 4 days of voting and then move on.

 

[Roo]

I'd vote for the Mini - it was even more important than the Transit, and it's so well loved, even in the US where it was never sold...

Yes, I'm a pedant Note: BMC = British Motor Corperation.

Minis in the United States

Between 1960 and 1967, BMC exported approximately 10,000 BMC Minis to the U.S. Sales were discontinued when stricter federal emission standards were imposed; BMC felt that it would be too expensive to make the Mini's engine compliant. Similar legislation was later introduced in Europe, and the A-series engine, with minor modifications, proved perfectly capable of complying with it.

Despite this, a small band of enthusiasts keep the legacy of the original car alive in the U.S., where cars more than 25 years old are generally exempt from emissions regulations. Minis that were originally sold in the U.S. are becoming hard to find, so most of the restored Minis now running in the U.S. have been imported by individual enthusiasts – typically from Australia or New Zealand where the climate has limited the amount of rust formation and cars are available for relatively low prices. There is increasing difficulty in finding cars that are old enough to meet the 25 year emissions exemption and yet are still in a reasonable condition. This has led some unscrupulous importers into employing the Theseus paradox, in which they place the vehicle identification number (VIN) plates from older cars onto Minis that are less than 25 years old – claiming that the car was "repaired" by replacing every single part with the exception of the VIN plate. Such vehicles are termed "re-VINs" and are surprisingly common.

And one day, I shall take a Mini out there and tour the continent. Eventually...

 

[YSSMAN]

A dude around the corner from me is selling a Royal-Blue Mini Cooper that was one of the few imports that made it from BMC. She has RHD, and has been kept up pretty well. I'd love to buy one, but I can't say I fit too well. I rode in a similar model several years ago, and it was a tight squeeze.

 

[1X83Z]

My issue was simply with this statement.

I agree, that statement was too harsh.

The part of your post I find most concerning is the apparent mocking of anyone who holds these opinions, the line "British people think that, and I laugh at them constantly for that opinion.", I personally find quite insulting and to be honest, representative of a number of your recent posts.

And you're not going to give the person who told me "I laugh at Americans who think they need huge trucks with big engines" ****, but you're going to give me ****? Hmm... wonder if that has something to do with which country I attacked and which country he attacked.

How else would you describe a vehicle that at launch made every competitor obsolete, introduced driving dynamics and well thought out load carrying capacity to a segment that had never experienced them before.

Can you prove that this happened? I'm not saying it didn't, I just don't know enough about the state of affairs in the sixties that I can speak to this. If it actually did this then I would say it's more significant than I first thought. I'm just not quite sure how you can make every competitor obsolete in a segment where vehicles go 20 years without redesigns.

Either way, you still haven't addressed my main problem with the vehicle, which is that it's primarily a commerical vehicle, seeing little private use. I don't see how people can vote for it over some of the other cars up there which were more representative of their era, or just plain more awesome in every possible respect. Not saying you, since you already said you didn't vote for it, but really - are there people who would say the Transit is a better British car than the Mini, GT40, or, best of all, the Carlton?

Umm Doug, I didn't say this

Sorry - did you say that?!

Yes, I'm a pedant Note: BMC = British Motor Corperation.

Thanks for showing me that - I had truly no idea, though I should've known cause there's a fair number of left-hookers here. In fact, a fellow three blocks over has two, though they're trashed and usually garaged (probably by request of the neighbors).

 

[Scaff]

I agree, that statement was too harsh.

Thanks for acknowledging that. 👍

And you're not going to give the person who told me "I laugh at Americans who think they need huge trucks with big engines" ****, but you're going to give me ****? Hmm... wonder if that has something to do with which country I attacked and which country he attacked.

It has nothing to do with countries of origin, the quote you refer to had escaped my attention.

I was posting in regard to a comment you made directly regarding a subject that I have strong opinions on.

In regard to any comments you consider offensive or directly insultiung, then use the Report button and a mod will check out the situation and act as required.

Can you prove that this happened? I'm not saying it didn't, I just don't know enough about the state of affairs in the sixties that I can speak to this. If it actually did this then I would say it's more significant than I first thought. I'm just not quite sure how you can make every competitor obsolete in a segment where vehicles go 20 years without redesigns.

The link I previously posted with a brief history of the Transit is a fine start in that direction, but I also speak as someone who has had to position LCV product launch training (of Renault & Nissan LCVs) against the Transit. Additionally its a conversation I have had with my dad (who works in construction) regarding the impact the original Transit had on the market.

Information on the is easily and freely availiable on the web.

In regard to LCVs existing on a 20 year cycle, that may be the case in the US (of which I know very little on the LCV market), but it certainly is not the case in the very fast moveing, competative and (for the motor industry) profitable segment.

Either way, you still haven't addressed my main problem with the vehicle, which is that it's primarily a commerical vehicle, seeing little private use. I don't see how people can vote for it over some of the other cars up there which were more representative of their era, or just plain more awesome in every possible respect. Not saying you, since you already said you didn't vote for it, but really - are there people who would say the Transit is a better British car than the Mini, GT40, or, best of all, the Carlton?

Sorry but I have addressed this a number of times now.

I'm not disputing any opinion on if it is the "best british car" at all, I didn't vote for it, neither would I even personally class it as a car.

and

The reason why I do not believe that the Transit is the "Best British Car" is far more simple, its not a car.

I don't personally think that it should be included, but its not my post, I'm not leading the discussion and the world is a much better place when we can all freely give these opinions.

As far as people rating it as a better or more important 'vehicle' than some mentioned, then I can certainly understand that. It may be a European thing but the Transit is a cultural icon, certainly one on par with the Mini.

You have to understand that here you don't go and hire a van, you go and hire a Transit, and the term is used no matter what you are actually hiring. Its a brand term on a similar level to Hoover in that regard.

Regards

Scaff

 

[1X83Z]

Sorry but I have addressed this a number of times now.

I know - which is why you should've read my entire statement, as I specifically excluded you from that comment:

Either way, you still haven't addressed my main problem with the vehicle, which is that it's primarily a commerical vehicle, seeing little private use. I don't see how people can vote for it over some of the other cars up there which were more representative of their era, or just plain more awesome in every possible respect. Not saying you, since you already said you didn't vote for it, but really - are there people who would say the Transit is a better British car than the Mini, GT40, or, best of all, the Carlton?

As I understand it you and I have similar positions on the Transit's inclusion in this thread.

And by the way, I wouldn't report either the comment that was directed at me nor the one you called me out on to moderators, since neither comment was a personal comment at another forum member, and no-one really takes this stuff that seriously anyway. We're discussing cars and sometimes it goes a bit overboard, but it's all in good fun. For the record, I hold all but one of the people who rebutted to my anti-Transit comments (including Poverty, who made the statement about American trucks, and yourself) in truly the highest regards.

 

[1X83Z]

And by the way (different post/different subject ) I was thinking about this later and consider this (US members) for a huge reason why the Mini should eventually win this debate: what other car that sold roughly 10,000 units over an extremely short period four decades ago is still as well-known and as highly-regarded as the Mini?

 

[YSSMAN]

^ Good point.

I'm still pulling for the XJ, and apparently I'm not the only one, but it looks like I'm out of this one. Of the popular choises, the Mini probably takes the cake for me, followed shortly by the Transit. The Mini simply did so much not only for the UK, but it did pretty well in the US, and from what I understand the rest of the world as well. It was a smart car, and to some extent a bit ahead of it's time.

So I guess the Mini now recieves my support now that it is looking as though the Jaguar is out.

BTW: I'm thinking of wrapping this one up tomorow night, narrow it down to five, and also introduce the next stop on the world tour.

 

[1X83Z]

BTW: I'm thinking of wrapping this one up tomorow night, narrow it down to five, and also introduce the next stop on the world tour.

Indeed - I wouldn't have a time period like some suggested, but just when debate's wrapping up. Save the US for last; it'll provoke the most suggestions and discussion (I think - maybe that'll be Japan - or Germany - but probably the US). There are a lot of possibilities here: aside from the UK, Japan, German, and the US, France, Italy, Sweden, the Republic of Korea, and Australia should all be covered. Canada could be covered too, though I have a hunch that the Bricklin SV-1 would win.

I must say, YSSMAN, this is a very good thread idea.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well thanks. I was bored the other night, and I figured we could use something like this. I'm looking forward to the final fight however, as that one could be a doozy. The plan is to take the winners and pit them against one another, so we could unoffically decide the "Best Car Worldwide," but that might be a bit much.

 

[1X83Z]

Oh, do it. This bunch will probably call it the Holden Monaro or something similarly ridiculous.

 

[Poverty]

should we go onto the second stage now? Get rid of the cars with 0 or 1 votes.

 

[Danny]

But Poverty, that would remove both Bentleys, and I can't guarantee there won't be a murderous rampage.

 

[Famine]

I can't bring myself to vote for any of the options. Even the Mini. The poor little Mini contributed massively to the downfall of the "British car Industry". None of the other cars really shifted the game on much, except the F1 - but that cost a million dollars.

 

[amp88]

Vote for the Carlton...you know it makes (no) sense.

 

[Danny]

The poor little Mini contributed massively to the downfall of the "British car Industry"

Please go into detail.

 

[Famine]

British Leyland (as was) made a single good car - the Mini. Everyone wanted it. This was problem 1...

• Problem 1 - each Mini was sold at a loss.

The idea was to use it as a loss leader - you take a small hit selling them, but you pull the owners into the British Leyland family. You make money off them from parts and servicing and by selling them the next car. This was problems 2, 3 and 4...

• Problem 2 - You can service a Mini yourself and buy parts from Unipart, or anywhere else, or even make them yourself in the kitchen. Everyone wanted a Mini, so the service history was irrelevant - you could sell it on anyway.
• Problem 3 - The dealerships were appalling. You wouldn't rely on them to service your toaster. After dealing with them for your period of ownership, you'd never buy anything else from the same brand.
• Problem 4 - Everything else British Leyland made was appalling. You wouldn't give a Triumph Acclaim to a tramp. Even if you could stand the dealers you wouldn't want to own another BL product unless you never saw or drove it.

Problem 5 was a biggie.

• Problem 5 - It was nationalised, so no-one cared. There'd be more taxpayer money round the corner.

Minis sold well, but cost the "company" (you) every time one was sold and, despite being pretty good at their jobs, gave people experience of BL's products and dealers, which turned them off buying any other BL product. BL didn't care, and kept making dross, because they didn't have any shareholders to satisfy. Not even government could stomach that kind of parasitism and suddenly they DID have shareholders to satisfy and a catalogue of unreliable, bland, drosstacular monkey sputum for the public to not buy (except Jaguar and Land Rover, who'd been sold off previously).

And it's all the Mini's fault...

(well, it isn't, but you get the picture)

 

[Danny]

Thanks Famine, it was very good of you to explain for me, I get it now.

 

[KSaiyu]

And it's all the Mini's fault...

(well, it isn't, but you get the picture)

Which is why everyone should vote for the ELAN!

P.S. Thanks for that info, I never knew the mini was a double edged sword like that.

 

[Famine]

Except... the Elan (assuming the S1) didn't do much either. I suppose it created a market, but the market didn't exist. I can only think of a couple of similar cars down the years - Alfa Spider, Triumph Spitfire, MGB... All it did was allow the Mazda MX-5 to be a good car 20 years later.