"Best Hot Hatch" Honda Civic CRX/Si/Type-R Takes It

[YSSMAN]

Sorry for the delay with the new thread guys. It was a busy day yesterday, and long story short, I wasn't able to start a new thread. Anyway, the results are in, and the list has been narrowed to five. And the nominees are:

- Honda Civic CRX/Si/Type-R
- "Renaultsport" Clio 182
- Volkswagen GTI
- Mazda 3 MPS
- Ford Focus SVT/ST/RS

I would ask that votes are cast with an explanation of your vote, please. Those who may have voted for other models may need to be better convinced of where their vote should go, added to that, the possibility for some slight debate is always there.

...In a move that surprises nobody, I again voted for the GTI. Argueably as the car that started the "Hot Hatch" thing as we know it today, it has continued to be a tour-de-force in the market by combining high value and high performance. Certainly the GTI of today is very different than it's predecessor of 30 years ago, but it has always been a performance bargain.

Give a man a Civic, he will be happy for a day. Give a man a GTI, he will be happy for a lifetime.

---

Now for the second part, finding the "Best Wagon/Estate." Knowing that I do not wish to have things get messy as they did before, I would want to make the rules somewhat similar to the previous Sedan/Saloon thread.

What we are looking for is once again the family version of transportation. What one may decide as a "Best" model may depend on what they view as necessary equipment, etc. I would again care to keep a cap on prices, similar to what we saw previously... No more than $30-35K USD or it's equals in the UK, Europe, or Australia (I believe no more than £22-24K, €26-28K, A$40-45K).

I do not want luxury "stripper" models in contention here. Take a "normal" car and send her through. If you want to include some classic models, that is fine by me.

---
And now for the wagon, I give you this:

Yes, I do realize that the Passat W8 4MOTION Wagon has been out of production for three years now. Yes, I realize that it was expensive in it's era. Yes, I realize there were some mechanical problems with the car.

...But so what?

When you have a car that looks THAT good with great levels of performance and civility, you are bound to come up with a winner. Okay, maybe not with everyone who isn't a die-hard Volkswagen fan, but I don't care. I can't think of many Wagons out there today that are as lusty as this one, the only other thing coming close being the 425 BHP Magnum SRT-8, but that is out of the price range here.

Lets see how she goes over, eh?

 

[skip0110]

Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Wagon



If it couldn't take the sedan, I hope it takes the wagon!

 

[Tornado]

I'm tempted to post the Dodge Magnum or Olds Vista Cruiser, but you know what? That would be an incredible disservice to the Wizards With Wagons themselves, Volvo. And with that assertion, I nominate the Volvo 200 series. The car. The Legend. 20 years of overbuilt, over engineered Swedish greatness. Reliable as anything ever made by Mercedes, yet as simple to repair as an old British roadster. Lightweight. Autocrossable even in wagon form.
Rugged. Boxy. Roomy. Safe. Good in the snow. Reliable. Rust-proof. It even outlived the car designed to replace it, à la Porsche 911 to Porsche 928.

The quintessential Volvo.
The quintessential wagon.

Hell, it even came with a PRV at one point! What isn't to love?
"A squirt of oil, some water, a hammer to beat out rust, and lots of gas - that's all you need to keep a Volvo 240 going forever. --Staffan Borglund"

 

[niky]

Still pinning my vote on the Focus. The RS is probably as close as "wrong wheel drive" can come to handling perfection, while the current Focus line-up, including the ST, has sublime handling and suspension tuning, the match of any other car out there. The owner of a local racing school says they drive just like BMWs (and no, he's no FWD fanboy like me... in his spare time, he drives Formula Three cars), and after a few track outings, I'm starting to believe him... this car's really something else.

Kudos to the GTi for first showing people that FWD cars can actually handle... Kudos to Honda for keeping the sport compact segment alive through some dreary times. Clio? Too limited in scope, not sold in enough markets to make its mark on the world in general. Mazda3 MPS? Great car, spectacularly fast, but it doesn't move the game on as much as continue the evolution of the segment in terms of power.

So hard to decide on wagons... harrumph... I'd vote for the WRX Wagon, but that should go into the same slot as the Legacy, as they'd steal votes from each other... but put together, they might get too many votes.

Hard to decide, hard to decide...

 

[Danny]

I'mma go with the Volvo 850 T5R

Fast and safe as they come.

 

[Mrs. Famine]

I struggled with this one.

I pondered, I hovered with the mouse over two options, I changed my mind, I changed my mind again and then finally went with the Civic - despite it looking a bit like a chiselled shoe, it's Japanese and nobody can argue with Japanese cars.

I almost went with the VW GTi but my love has shifted somewhat now someone I know has bought the brand new Golf GTi and it's already borked.

 

[Leonidae]

I voted GTi.

and I nominate Audi RS6+ Avant.

 

[Diego440]

Just because, I'm going to go with the Ford Country Squire.

It was one of the biggest cars during the 70s, and that's saying a lot. A friend of mine had one as a daily driver in the early 90s and it was hilarious to drive. The car also pushed the limits of size in its lifetime, before the coming of SUVs.

Alhough being rated for five passengers, it was capable of carrying up to 25 people, slightly comfortably, kinda safely and still guzzle up gasoline as if it were going empty.

 

[TheCracker]

And that makes it the best estate?

 

[Diego440]

And that makes it the best estate?

well, it was pretty nice to be in one. The best reason for it I can only explain in a PM.

 

[Specialized]

I voted for the Clio 182. It was quite a simple vote because i have never read about a car which has received so much praise and i have never read a bad review about it and as a drivers car it is seemingly flawless.

Also if the owner of a Pagini Zonda (Harry Metcalfe - evo magazine's editorial director) decides to buy one after (he actually put a call into renault mid test) a road test because he thinks its one of the most enjoyable and engaging cars to drive surely it must be something quite special and gets my vote.

Spec....

 

[TheCracker]

The best reason for it I can only explain in a PM.

Does it involve 24 other people and a whole tub of lube?

 

[Diego440]

I just went over a past thread in which I commented on the Clio 182 which I (don't) own.

In a group test Evo magazine rated the Clio 182 a more accomplished point to point road car than
BMW M3 CS
Roush Mustang
Nissan 350Z GT4 edition
Lotus Exige 240R
Subaru Forrester STi
Caterham CSR
Megane 225
BMW 130i M Sport
Subaru Impreza WRX
VW Gold R32
Corvette C6
Mazda MX5

In fact, Evo magazine tested the Clio 182 against 9 supercars and it came 3rd (in handling)
Ford GT 95.1
Ferrari F430 93.0
Renault Clio 92.9
Gallardo SE 92.0
BMW M3 CS 90.7
Porsche Cayman S 87.6
Aston Martin V8 86.7
BMW M6 85.1
SLK55 AMG 83.4
TVR Sagaris 81.1

All in a 4-cylinder, 1000 kilos, and about 7500€ (used) car

Also, the Clio 182 has been described as the best handling and best over all hot hatch ever made. Renault may not be the best manufactuer in the world but damn they made a hell of a car with that one.

 

[TopHat]

I nominate the original Chevy Nomad. One helluva design, it was just great.

 

[Jim Prower]

Well, being the Mopar fan at heart, I've gotta go with the Magnum.

Barring the goddamned 2.7 V6, It's a great allround automobile, even if you dislike the looks, or a lack of 6MT on the SRT-8. I mean, come on, even Volvo's BTCC 850 Estate didn't have 425 HP.

I'll admit, though, it was tempting to nominate the 850 BTCC, but I've got a feeling race cars don't count.

((NOTE: crap...just noticed the price cap. Well, officially, we can exclude the SRT-8, as it's only a range-topping version. The R/T should fit in the price range nicely at $31,715...and, at 340HP, is nothing to sneeze at. so, official nomination, Dodge Magnuim R/T.))

 

[Poverty]

I voted golf GTI. Its the best car here, and not a one trick pony like some of the other nominations. Plus if you chip it, it will also become quite a bit faster than the renault clio and type-r instead of just about being faster. Chip the type-r or clio and you wont see much difference in BHP due to them being high strung NA.

Oh and the GTI will hold its value alot better than the other two and its a very respectable car to own. Premium quality.

 

[TheCracker]

I voted golf GTI. Its the best car here, and not a one trick pony like some of the other nominations.

To be the best hot hatch a car only needs to learn one trick - to out-handle all the others.

 

[Dave A]

It's the most expensive car there as well, and thoes tricks it does arn't nessicarily better than the tricks the other cars pull off. The Golf is stupidly expensive imo, both the own and to buy in the first place. At over £5k or over 25% cheaper than the Golf GTi, I'm sticking with the faster, more accomplished, more satisfying to drive Clio 182.

 

[Poverty]

It's the most expensive car there as well, and thoes tricks it does arn't nessicarily better than the tricks the other cars pull off. The Golf is stupidly expensive imo, both the own and to buy in the first place. At over £5k or over 25% cheaper than the Golf GTi, I'm sticking with the faster, more accomplished, more satisfying to drive Clio 182.

You will lose alot more money on the clio. A year back 2yr old 172's were going for 5 grand. Thats 2001 MK4 Golf GTI money.

The clio is also unreliable, and have a tendancy to fall to pieces along with it having a rubbish interior.

The golf is fast, reliable, looks the part, holds on to ist value, is comfortable, has a good interior, and is accomplished both on and off the track.

Its a better car than the clio, and you get what you pay for.

 

[Dave A]

The larger depreciation of the Clio doesn't make up for the 25% difference in initial cost. The Clio is faster, reliable, looks the part, is cheaper, and is more accomplished on and off the track. Also you do not get what you paid for in the GTi. The Golf is not worth £20k, nor is the Leon. For an extra couple of hundered pounds on the Golf you can get yourself a Subaru Impreza WRX which offers more of everything than the Golf as far as performanace goes. You try finding something that can match the Clio for the price and you'll be left looking at kit cars and bare bones track day cars. How you can say the Golf is better than the Clio 182 is beyond me, reliability maybe, but cost of ownership no, performance no, value for money no.

 

[Poverty]

The larger depreciation of the Clio doesn't make up for the 25% difference in initial cost. The Clio is faster, reliable, looks the part, is cheaper, and is more accomplished on and off the track. Also you do not get what you paid for in the GTi. The Golf is not worth £20k, nor is the Leon. For an extra couple of hundered pounds on the Golf you can get yourself a Subaru Impreza WRX which offers more of everything than the Golf as far as performanace goes. You try finding something that can match the Clio for the price and you'll be left looking at kit cars and bare bones track day cars. How you can say the Golf is better than the Clio 182 is beyond me, reliability maybe, but cost of ownership no, performance no, value for money no.

The impreza WRX interior is poor, it looks rubbish, and real impreza drivers make fun of you. Its also not that much fun to drive according to the scooby boys (they say its slow and that many hothatches will outsprint it).

Im sorry L4S but the clio is proven to be unreliable. The amount of people who mention that word in the same sentence as clio is phenomenal.

I dont see why anyone would pay 17k for a clio 182. Second hand it makes more sense but if you wnat a track car, just get a older peugeot and strip it down and you will have a better car and saved 15 grand.

The clio's interior is no comparison to that of the GTI, plus the GTI is bigger, and if your a city worker you wouldnt be embarrased to take clients out in it, but you would if it was a clio.

The Golf GTI is a car for all ages.

The Clio is a car for young adults whose insurance premiums have just got low enough for them to be able to afford to insure such a vehicle.

The GTI is hands down the better car. The clio is a one trick pony.

 

[TheCracker]

This thread isn't 'Best all round hatchback with a big engine and a chassis set-up leaning towards sporting'

Fact is, even if it breaks down every other day, even if all the cheap plastic interior trim drops off, even if the dashboard rattles like a diamond back, even if Renault dealers and their service teams are the most obnoxious, garlic smelling cretins - the Clio 182 is still the best Hot Hatchback made to date and anything to do with 2nd hand values, build quality, practicality, fancy automatic-yet-actually-manual gearboxes is utterly irrelevant.

 

[Dave A]

The impreza WRX interior is poor, it looks rubbish, and real impreza drivers make fun of you. Its also not that much fun to drive according to the scooby boys (they say its slow and that many hothatches will outsprint it).

A fact backed up by nothing but you and your people from other sites. Bottom line is the Impreza dumps on the GTI for performance.

Im sorry L4S but the clio is proven to be unreliable. The amount of people who mention that word in the same sentence as clio is phenomenal.

I didn't say the Clio was reliable, but it's a junk wagon either, they don't fall to bits the second you rev the high or open the glove compartment. They are more reliable than a lot of other performance cars. But I did say, the only area the Golf beats the Clio at being a hot hatch is reliability so I don't know why you brought this up again.

I dont see why anyone would pay 17k for a clio 182. Second hand it makes more sense but if you wnat a track car, just get a older peugeot and strip it down and you will have a better car and saved 15 grand.

The Clio 182 didn't cost £17 grand, it cost £15, the new 197 costs £16.

The clio's interior is no comparison to that of the GTI, plus the GTI is bigger, and if your a city worker you wouldnt be embarrased to take clients out in it, but you would if it was a clio.

If I was a city worker and was taking clients anywhere in my car the last car I'd use was a hot hatch, Golf or Clio, and the Golf isn't a picture of beauty inside. The Clio is a lot more sparse and bare bones than the Golf.

The Golf GTI is a car for all ages.

So is the Clio, what a pointless statement.

The Clio is a car for young adults whose insurance premiums have just got low enough for them to be able to afford to insure such a vehicle.

Which applies to every hot hatch, do you think a 18 year old who's just got his license will fid it any easier to get insured for a new Golf GTi.

The GTI is hands down the better car. The clio is a one trick pony.

how? the clio is faster on the road, it's faster on a track, it's more enjoyable to drive, there's three tricks already. It's a smaller car so it;s easier to park and easier to drive in narrow lanes and thorugh narrow gaps, theres a third trick. See you can make these "tricks" up as you go. Your argument is flawed, and biased. Oh hang on, the Golf is German.

 

[ExigeEvan]

I voted for the Focus SVT/ST/RS this time round. I keep seeing STs around and they look so good. Plus the RS is a great car.

I nominate the Subaru Impreza WRX Wagon! Fast, fun and practical.

 

[Poverty]

This thread isn't 'Best all round hatchback with a big engine and a chassis set-up leaning towards sporting'

Fact is, even if it breaks down every other day, even if all the cheap plastic interior trim drops off, even if the dashboard rattles like a diamond back, even if Renault dealers and their service teams are the most obnoxious, garlic smelling cretins - the Clio 182 is still the best Hot Hatchback made to date and anything to do with 2nd hand values, build quality, practicality, fancy automatic-yet-actually-manual gearboxes is utterly irrelevant.

I dont get your way of thinking. This is about the best hot hatch. Which one would you want to buy and own not which one is the best on the racetrack. Thats only one part of owning the car, and seeing as most people dont track their car its pointless. Point to point a 220hp Golf GTI will beat a clio 172/182 point to point whilst being relaxed.

Also both cars have the same size engine

 

[Keef]

I'm sticking with my vote becuase:

Originally Posted by Me
...

Everyone loves VTEC. A Civic Si and Type-R are great fun, with their high revving 1.6 and 1.8L engines. Eight-thousand rpm. Often less than 2600 lbs. Over 200 horses in the Type-R, and torque steer was minimal because the engines don't have any torque, but the light weight solves that problem. I think the Civics are more pure "sportscars" than the Focus or GTI. Oh, and the Civic is tuned easier than your old Chevy. Not only can you take your 110 hp EG Civic DX and drop a B18C from an Integra GSR in there, but you can go a step further and plop an Integ Type-R head on top. Then you can tune the thing to over 220 horsepower. Now that's a N/A 1.8L! Combine that with super light weight and great suspension tuning, wheels, and tires, and you can have yourself a genuine Mustang-eating race car for the street. It even vibrates, rattles, and shakes like a race car! Oh, and the sound of VTEC........

...

EDIT: Okay, I've read my post, and I've made my decision. As I was writing I realized I couldn't come up with much that I truly loved about the GTI. I've never driven one, but I can imagine--electronic throttle, electronic steering, light cable shifter, high seating position. I threw that choice out. Then I realized that, well, I jsut don't dig the Focus much either. They never really caught on, and they have no heritage, though they are great rally cars and really were good performers. Then I thought, "You know, I'm going to sound like a Honda fanboy because I own a Del Sol." As it turns out, I don't really care if my cousin's Cobalt S/C has over 200 hp, with his intake and whiny loud supercharger. I don't care that it has a great factory stereo or that it's smooth, quiet, rattle free, and waterproof. I'd rather have a loud, obnoxious, rich-burning VTEC devil under my hood! Really, there's no substitute for that noise, that vibration, the mechanical throttle linkage, the perfect rev-matches, Honda transmission, and the nice big steel rod that is your shift linkage. There's a weird phenomenon when your reverse in these Hondas, though, that the steering wheel stays where you put it, causing unintentional bumps and scrapes. Ahh, well. I have a buddy with a tuned EG hatch that puts down ~180 hp to the wheels and only ~135 lb-ft. It's quicker than the previously mentioned Cobalt S/C. And it handles like it's on freaking rails! What's cooler than getting a noise ordinance ticket while cruising the speed limit? Eh?

I love Honda.

We aren't fanboys. I guess youjust have to experience a 210 hp, 2300 lb beast for yourself. The vibration, the noise, the speed, the rpms, the handling... Especially the noise. Just makes the hair on your neck stand up, ya know? I guess those sensations just appeal to more people.

 

[Poverty]

A fact backed up by nothing but you and your people from other sites. Bottom line is the Impreza dumps on the GTI for performance.

Elaborate? Track performance? Drag race performance? Roll on race performance? Firt one to 150mph performance?

The GTI will beat the wrx in many of those categories.

I didn't say the Clio was reliable, but it's a junk wagon either, they don't fall to bits the second you rev the high or open the glove compartment. They are more reliable than a lot of other performance cars. But I did say, the only area the Golf beats the Clio at being a hot hatch is reliability so I don't know why you brought this up again.

Reliability plays a big role in vehicle ownership. The car is no good to the consumer if its not availbe to be used as its always the dealer getting something fixed. I dont know about you guys but I enjoy having a vehicle I can depend on, and not having to worry about wheter it will get me home. The clio is the most unrelaible car by far in this poll.

The Clio 182 didn't cost £17 grand, it cost £15, the new 197 costs £16.

Im pretty sure I saw them on sale for 17k. I'll check in a minute.

If I was a city worker and was taking clients anywhere in my car the last car I'd use was a hot hatch, Golf or Clio, and the Golf isn't a picture of beauty inside. The Clio is a lot more sparse and bare bones than the Golf.

Theres nothing wrong with a hothatch like the Golf GTI. Plenty of the city boys carry people about in the Golf GTI.

So is the Clio, what a pointless statement.

I have yet to see a person over 30 in a 172/182. I have seen 60yr olds in Golfs GTI's though.

Which applies to every hot hatch, do you think a 18 year old who's just got his license will fid it any easier to get insured for a new Golf GTi.

No but a 21 yr old is more liekly to be able to get a clio 172/182 than a Golf GTI due to Golfs not losing half their value as soon as you drive it off the parking lot.

how? the clio is faster on the road, it's faster on a track, it's more enjoyable to drive, there's three tricks already. It's a smaller car so it;s easier to park and easier to drive in narrow lanes and thorugh narrow gaps, theres a third trick. See you can make these "tricks" up as you go. Your argument is flawed, and biased. Oh hang on, the Golf is German.

Performance is one category. Overall it wins that. Everything else the Golf is much better.

What would you rather be in an accident in?
What would you rather drive on a 700mile trip?
What would you rather have as a motorway cruiser?
What would you rather have for wet/icy or generally tricky conditions?
What would you rather have if you have a family?
What would you rather have if you need a car to never let you down?
What would you rather have if you drive normally most of the time but like to put our foot down every now and again?

The Golf GTI is easily overall the better car. It ticks more boxes. So what if you could go 0.02 of a second faster round a roundabout or chicane faster in the clio, the Golf is the better car.

Hell and seeing as the leon cupra is even faster than the golf yet cheaper that makes it the best hothatch overall.

 

[Dave A]

I dont get your way of thinking. This is about the best hot hatch. Which one would you want to buy and own not which one is the best on the racetrack. Thats only one part of owning the car, and seeing as most people dont track their car its pointless. Point to point a 220hp Golf GTI will beat a clio 172/182 point to point whilst being relaxed.

Yeah, and the Golf beats the clio in one area, build quality. But considering it costs 33% more than the Clio, so it should. I was buying a hot hatch I'd rather save the 5 grand and have the better performing car. And no, the only are the Golf is qiucker than the Clio is top speed, the Clio is better on the road and on the track. You can talk about driving while your relaxed, what kind of bs way to rate a hot hatch is that. But anyway, driving while relaxed tends to be keeping to all the speed limits and generally not bieng in a rush to get anywhere. In which case I'd be doing the same speeds in either car. If I want to see which is the fastest point to point period, well that will be the Clio.

The Clio is better for....
Price
Cost of ownership
Performance on track
Performance on road
Economy
Cost of repairs

The Golf has a nicer interior and is more reliable and it costs 33% more. If I wanted thoes two things I wouldn't be after a hot hatch. Not a £20k hot hatch anyway.

Elaborate? Track performance? Drag race performance? Roll on race performance? Firt one to 150mph performance?

The GTI will beat the wrx in many of those categories.

Track, the WRX will beat the Golf GTi, drag race, the WRX will beat the Golf GTi, it's almost 2 seconds ahead by 60mph. Roll on race? IO presume you mean rolling start, then I reffer you to track performance and drag race, the Golf probably does handle a bit tighter, but that's it. First one to 150mph, well that would be neither, the both top out in the 140's.

Reliability plays a big role in vehicle ownership. The car is no good to the consumer if its not availbe to be used as its always the dealer getting something fixed. I dont know about you guys but I enjoy having a vehicle I can depend on, and not having to worry about wheter it will get me home. The clio is the most unrelaible car by far in this poll.

You talk about it like theres a huge gulf here theers not. You can buy your 182 and never have a problem with it, it's not like truely unreliable cars like Alfa romes where your almost gaurenteed to have a mechincal failure at some point. The Clio isn't a notoriousely unreliable car, it's just less reliable than the Golf.

Im pretty sure I saw them on sale for 17k. I'll check in a minute.

You check that, they were £15,525 with all the options.

Theres nothing wrong with a hothatch like the Golf GTI. Plenty of the city boys carry people about in the Golf GTI.

There's less right tha with a Ford Mondeo for that kind of thing, which is again not only cheaper that a Golf GTi but bigger and far more comfey.

I have yet to see a person over 30 in a 172/182. I have seen 60yr olds in Golfs GTI's though.

So, that just means the Golf has more appeal with retired people. It's a better known brand, simple as.

No but a 21 yr old is more liekly to be able to get a clio 172/182 than a Golf GTI due to Golfs not losing half their value as soon as you drive it off the parking lot.

Sooooooo the Clio is more affordable then, which is a good thing. It's a hot hatch that more people in the market for hot hatches can actually afford, and own over the Golf. Thanks for adding another plus point to the Clio's tally.

Performance is one category. Overall it wins that. Everything else the Golf is much better...

What would you rather be in an accident in?

Both are very safe, the new Golf has 5 stars NCAP the Clio 197 has 5 stars the Clio 182 has 4, that's safe enough for me. If your going fast enough to die ina 182 you'll die in a Golf.

What would you rather drive on a 700mile trip?

A Mondeo. No really. I wouldn't buy a hot hatch for 700 mile trips. But I'd probably in all fairness prefer the Golf, because it's less like a hot hatch.

What would you rather have as a motorway cruiser?

Again, a Mondeo. Same answer as above.

What would you rather have for wet/icy or generally tricky conditions?

A Clio, it's better and more nimble for thoes conditions.

What would you rather have if you have a family?

A Mondeo and not a hot hatch, if i had a family and A hot hastch, the hot hatch would be the second car.

What would you rather have if you need a car to never let you down?

Neither.

What would you rather have if you drive normally most of the time but like to put our foot down every now and again?

For sdaily use as I use my cars now, the Clio 182.

The Golf GTI is easily overall the better car. It ticks more boxes. So what if you could go 0.02 of a second faster round a roundabout or chicane faster in the clio, the Golf is the better car.

It ticks a few boxes sure, but the reasons it ticks thoes boxes are for the very reasons it doesn't make as good a hot hatch as the Clio.

Hell and seeing as the leon cupra is even faster than the golf yet cheaper that makes it the best hothatch overall.

I will agree that the leon makes a more sound choice than the Golf, but both the Leon and Golf are overpriced. Very overpriced.

 

[Diego440]

A used Clio 182 goes for less than 8000€

Golf GTIs for less than that price have to be more than 10 years old.

AND THIS

Plus, the Clio 182 has been heralded as one of the best hot hatches of all time. Winner of Evo magazine's People's Performance Car of the Year, 2005, beating rivals such as the Lambo Gallardo.

 

[Poverty]

Yeah, and the Golf beats the clio in one area, build quality. But considering it costs 33% more than the Clio, so it should. I was buying a hot hatch I'd rather save the 5 grand and have the better performing car. And no, the only are the Golf is qiucker than the Clio is top speed, the Clio is better on the road and on the track. You can talk about driving while your relaxed, what kind of bs way to rate a hot hatch is that. But anyway, driving while relaxed tends to be keeping to all the speed limits and generally not bieng in a rush to get anywhere. In which case I'd be doing the same speeds in either car. If I want to see which is the fastest point to point period, well that will be the Clio.

The Clio is better for....
Price
Cost of ownership
Performance on track
Performance on road
Economy
Cost of repairs

The Golf has a nicer interior and is more reliable and it costs 33% more. If I wanted thoes two things I wouldn't be after a hot hatch. Not a £20k hot hatch anyway.

LOL

I thought the Golf GTI was 25% more expensive (and thats when saying the clio is 15k and not 17k.)

Its not just about driving relaxed. Do you boy race everywhere everytime you drive? If the answer is no the Golf is the better car, and a DSG equipped 220hp golf GTI will beat a clio to 62mph, and stay infront till they hit top speed. Also the golf is alot more stable at high speeds than the clio. I wouldnt have the confidence to drive fast in the clio anyone as Id worry one of the wheels would fall off due to disasterous clio build quality.

Point to point on UK roads the Golf is the faster car, and seeing as you will lose 66% of the clios value in 3 years the golfs ownership in 3 years (if your gonna sell at that point) would be about the same.

Servicing costs would probably come out the same aswell seeing as the clio does enjoy eating its components, or them just failing on their own accord, and then theres all the interior rattles to put up with.

Heres a good question.

Clio 172's are currently cheap as chips, why do you not buy one, as you seem to rate them so highly and above that of the GTI.

Its all good and dandy in theoretical scenarios, but its not all about performance in real life.