Beware of teen drivers!

[Tornado]

Isn't Corzine the idiot who crashed his Tahoe last year because he was speeding?

 

[stumpydino]

Again, a useless statistic. What's the percentage of teen drivers out there in the first place? My guess is probably about 20%, actually, which would mean an equal ratio of accidents for teen drivers and adult drivers.

about that i reckon, most people i know my age dont have a license, let alone a car. it costs a fortune and its easier just to walk or take public transport.

oddly i was recently reading a 1952 HopUp mag discussing the same issues, typical finger pointing at young drivers but when things tally up its the middle aged drivers that make up the majority of road users and of course more accidents as there are more of them. of course there are the odd teen individuals that do hoon it around, but there are plenty in other age groups.

 

[mustangGT90210]

Twenty percent of all passenger deaths occurred when a teenager was driving.

So that means only a paltry 20% of accidents due to us "inexperienced" drivers. Notice that nobody mentions that the other 80% are adults.

Here's a somewhat stereotyped profile:
Teen Drivers: Inexperienced to a point, love driving, don't want to crash, can be distracted easily
Adult Drivers: More experienced, but constantly multitasking while driving, leaving them as a bigger hazard. While a teen has short bursts of distraction, the adults are often distracted their whole commute on the phone, eating, or both.
Elderly Drivers: Slow, very experienced, but not as aware as a teen/adult, causes probably as many wrecks as teens.

As a teen driver I think it's a stupid idea. My friends have been pulled for doing the exact speed limit, and the cops reason: "Son, you're driving too suspiciously, what are you hiding?" And yesterday, I was going to my friends house. I had a cop riding my ass all the way there, presumably just waiting for me to make a mistake. And by riding my ass, I meant he was so close, I couldn't see his headlights in the rearview. I was driving the mustang, which sits low enough that should never happen. If I had one of those little stickers on the car, I can just about garuntee he would have tried to pull me for doing 47 in a 45 or brake checking him(Yes, I tapped the brakes with him on my ass, he didn't back off). All this sounds like to me is a way to generate more revenue for the state and make people feel better about themselves, blaming teens for their lack of driving skill.

 

[Jondot]

As Foolkiller mentioned, let's not forget that it's not just the police who are going to be taking advantage of these giant 'inexperienced driver' flags.

Think of it this way, if you see someone with an L plate on the back, or someone having a driving lesson, how do you behave towards them? The general idea is to give them some room, but a number of drivers have the attitude of 's**t, a learner driver, don't want to get stuck behind him!'. I've had people floor it out of junctions ahead of me, tailgate me when I've been doing about 5 over the speed limit, and make stupid attempts to overtake me just for the sake of it. I had an utter idiot in an Alfa 147 dangerously overtake me (it was 2 lanes going into 1, and he went over a solid white line to do it) when I was doing about 45, just to sit in front of me and do 40. This kinda thing is only going to get worse, as far as I can see.

Teen drivers are probably considerably less than 20%. The question I would like asked is how often to older drivers travel with a passenger?

For example in college alot of people would come to college with a car full of people. How often do commuters do that?

Yeah, on that one I admit my estimations were a bit off :S But that's another good point. There's a hell of a lot of factors they're not taking into consideration.

 

[seanyb505]

I think its a good idea, and Im going to go ahead and assume that most of the people who think its a bad idea are a.)teens, or b.)dont have teens driving. If it makes you an easier target for cops you should be less prone to do stupid stuff, stuff I did as a teen. If they pull you over, hopefully you should have been doing nothing wrong, so at most your late. Yeah it sucks, but I dont think the cons out weigh the pros here. If you were in fact driving illegally, you get a ticket and rightfully so. Dont do it anymore.

 

[FoolKiller]

If they pull you over, hopefully you should have been doing nothing wrong, so at most your late. Yeah it sucks, but I dont think the cons out weigh the pros here. If you were in fact driving illegally, you get a ticket and rightfully so. Dont do it anymore.

So, if they are on a highway full of people doing 80mph (happens to me almost daily) and the teen can be picked out of the pack by the cop that is fair how?

And being pulled over for no reason and then let go, just because you are a teen is still a violation of rights. Violating rights is a con that outwieghs all pros, always.

 

[mafia_boy]

So, let me get this straight:

1) Age discrimination

No, because the L & P plate system applies for ALL new drivers, regardless of age. The difference is this for young drivers:
*They CANNOT go for their P's before Age 17.
*Young drivers have to complete the full 3yrs for P plates, for mature drivers this is a lot less, can be as little as 12mths.

2) Easier Age Profiling

For the police it is, because there's curfew laws in place where P platers under 21 CANNOT have more than 1 passenger in their car after 11pm at night. They understand that people work night shifts so you can cart yourself anywhere if you're driving alone or with one other person to give them a lift home for example. But it's not a foolproof system by any means.

And like 80Y 2C2 said, there's also restrictions on the type of car they drive in NSW for RED P platers. No turbo cars, no muscle V8's or hi-po models (eg. M3, 911). Funny thing is though, you're allowed to drive these cars on your L's, not allowed for Red P's and allowed to again on your green P's.

3) Identifiers for Pedophiles

Once again, no. Age of consent is 16 here in Australia, so EVERYONE who drives a car here is also what we call at the minimum BARELY LEGAL!!

As for being pulled over for no reason Foolkiller, I'm over 30 and I get pulled over for a random licence check to make sure everything's alright, no one's acting sus, etc. It's what cops do here.

 

[homeforsummer]

I completely disagree with this being controlled by age. Time after qualifying maybe, but age takes away from the fact that much of it is about experience.

I agree partly - a system as with motorcycling where you're restricted for a certain amount of time to a certain size bike (125cc and 2 years, in the UK unless you take direct access) regardless of your age makes a lot of sense. That said, this system does run in conjunction with age limits - below 17 you're restricted to 50cc and below 21 you can't skip straight to direct access.

However, I can see why an age-related system is often implemented. Statistically, teens are a high risk group. There's no getting away from that and there's no use bitching that elderly drivers are more dangerous as is the usual line spouted. Everybody is a teen once, we all have to pay the ridiculous insurance premiums and get looked down upon as bad drivers just because of our age - so any system that prevents the idiots from spoiling it for the rest of us is beneficial. For every one of you who drives well despite being a relatively new driver, there are five other morons out there who take too many risks, crash, and encourage the government to implement a knee-jerk policy that tars everyone unfairly with the same brush.

I actually think the Australian speed restriction system is a good idea. I wonder, if you go through the "Fastest you've ever gone in your car" thread, how many 16, 17, 18 year olds are in the highest proportion "100-120mph" vote? Are these new drivers really capable of safely doing these speeds? My car doesn't even reach 100mph so I was never tempted to try and hit too high a speed, but I know that in my very first year driving I made a hell of a lot more mistakes than I have in subsequent years. And I was probably lucky that I had a fairly slow car as with more power and higher speeds, my chances of recovering from mistakes might not have been as high.

As for the whole purpose of the thread - young driver tags - the main reason people seem to be against them is extra police attention. Well come on - if you're getting police attention it's because you're driving like a knob, not because you have a badge on your car. I'm sure there are the odd unscrupulous coppers who pull someone just because they don't like the way they look, but if your car is in good nick and you aren't driving like a pillock, then you immediately reduce the chances of getting pulled regardless of having a learner badge somewhere on the car.

Regarding the number of people in a car as Evan mentioned - all well and good it's nice and environmentally friendly for five people to be in the car going from A to B, but in reality what you have is four people who are capable of distracting the driver, and seriously affecting the handling and braking efficiency of what are usually small and not particularly sturdy cars. And you also have the risk that if the person driving is an idiot, five young lives can be lost in a serious accident instead of just one. As someone who generally hates that people don't car share, even I can see that there are some very good arguements against it when there are young people driving.

 

[FoolKiller]

No, because the L & P plate system applies for ALL new drivers, regardless of age. The difference is this for young drivers:
*They CANNOT go for their P's before Age 17.
*Young drivers have to complete the full 3yrs for P plates, for mature drivers this is a lot less, can be as little as 12mths.


For the police it is, because there's curfew laws in place where P platers under 21 CANNOT have more than 1 passenger in their car after 11pm at night. They understand that people work night shifts so you can cart yourself anywhere if you're driving alone or with one other person to give them a lift home for example. But it's not a foolproof system by any means.

And like 80Y 2C2 said, there's also restrictions on the type of car they drive in NSW for RED P platers. No turbo cars, no muscle V8's or hi-po models (eg. M3, 911). Funny thing is though, you're allowed to drive these cars on your L's, not allowed for Red P's and allowed to again on your green P's.


Once again, no. Age of consent is 16 here in Australia, so EVERYONE who drives a car here is also what we call at the minimum BARELY LEGAL!!

As for being pulled over for no reason Foolkiller, I'm over 30 and I get pulled over for a random licence check to make sure everything's alright, no one's acting sus, etc. It's what cops do here.

First, what you describe is like a complex version of our learner's permit system we have here, the only difference being that your car is specifically marked on the outside(?). In the US most parents own the teen's car, so this can't just be a simple sticker or tag.

And in Kentucky learner permits look different to licenses, and under 21 licenses look different to over 21. But these are all secondary things as the cops, by law, have to have a reason to pull you over, so they see this after the fact. Tagging cars on the outside visibly will allow cops to profile younger drivers, who must be statistically more likely to be breaking the law.

And I just double-checked. The article is about New Jersey. All my points are valid for New Jersey.

And if cops pulled people over for no reason in the US they would be ripped to shreds in the press. Doesn't your city have real crime that the cops can be worrying about instead of checking your license randomly?

Cops here in Kentucky have computers in their cars that allow them to punch in your license plate number and get all your info. There is no need to pull anyone over just because.

 

[Northstar]

This law is being enforced in New Jersey? I drove on the roads a bit when I was there last year, and 90% of the drivers were rubbish. Whether they were a teenager or not wouldn’t make much of a difference.

Though I’m surprised the US hasn’t come up with a system like this before. I think the ‘P’ and ‘L’ plates work well in Australia.👍

I think a couple states tried to make it law but failed.

 

[mafia_boy]

First, what you describe is like a complex version of our learner's permit system we have here, the only difference being that your car is specifically marked on the outside(?). In the US most parents own the teen's car, so this can't just be a simple sticker or tag.

No, it's not like that. The plates are a simple removable plastic plate or magnet sticker that must be put on the car everytime the L/P plater is driving that particular car. When they finish driving, they take the plates off. It doesn't matter who owns the car (lots of parents still own their kids cars here too ), so long as the plates are on for the one driving it.

And in Kentucky learner permits look different to licenses, and under 21 licenses look different to over 21.

Ours are different too, in colour only. They are all done on the same sort of security plastic for all licenced drivers in NSW, just the colour signifies your ability.

But these are all secondary things as the cops, by law, have to have a reason to pull you over, so they see this after the fact. Tagging cars on the outside visibly will allow cops to profile younger drivers, who must be statistically more likely to be breaking the law.

From that aspect I see where you're going and I'll get onto that part in a sec, but it's also from a safety aspect. L platers get given more space because other motorists realise that the L plater is more than likely going to be a nervous teenager just trying to absorb the experience of driving a car, fearing they could be T-Boned any second for any reason.
P platers are more confident now, and usually are more cocky with their vehicles as all teens are. They can now hang with their friends, cruising around the city together instead of being stuck in the car with Mum or Dad with them going "look left, blinker, check your mirrors, etc.". And here in Australia, it's not uncommon to see 4-5 P plate vehicles cruising together in a row through the suburbs or city, all packed with 5 people (usually Middle Eastern), all of them friends or related with eachother and looking for trouble at 1-3am. The curfew laws prevent that from happening at nights now.

And I just double-checked. The article is about New Jersey. All my points are valid for New Jersey.

And if cops pulled people over for no reason in the US they would be ripped to shreds in the press. Doesn't your city have real crime that the cops can be worrying about instead of checking your license randomly?

Cops here in Kentucky have computers in their cars that allow them to punch in your license plate number and get all your info. There is no need to pull anyone over just because.

We have different laws here in NSW, thanks to the APEC summit which haven't been repealed yet. The cops can pull you over for any reason, and search you for that matter regardless of what the computer says. They'll say the usual "tail lights out" or "tyres are bald" excuse for pulling you over to cover their butt.

But it happened to me not even 2mths ago. Driving a mate home to his house, along a main road, cop car came up, flashed me over, asked for my licence and what I was doing tonight, told him driving a mate home, and he said "okay take care". Nothing else, just to see I was who I was.

Remember, they protect aswell as serve. Just as a hypothetical, some person could've stolen the car and been driving along that same spot and that same scenario happened where the cop flashed him over....he'd have a car thief in his hands then. Not so silly now to just check it out is it?

 

[Danoff]

There are plenty of ways to make teens safer drivers without branding them. I don't think this will make people behave any better around them. As others have mentioned, I got a lot of tailgating and angry passing when I was driving with the "driver's ed" cone on top.

Have any of you actually read the scarlet letter? It's an awful book, but it has a message.

 

[FoolKiller]

No, it's not like that. The plates are a simple removable plastic plate or magnet sticker that must be put on the car everytime the L/P plater is driving that particular car. When they finish driving, they take the plates off. It doesn't matter who owns the car (lots of parents still own their kids cars here too ), so long as the plates are on for the one driving it.

So, what stops the kids from just taking them off?

We have different laws here in NSW, thanks to the APEC summit which haven't been repealed yet. The cops can pull you over for any reason, and search you for that matter regardless of what the computer says. They'll say the usual "tail lights out" or "tyres are bald" excuse for pulling you over to cover their butt.

Which is a violation of rights.

But it happened to me not even 2mths ago. Driving a mate home to his house, along a main road, cop car came up, flashed me over, asked for my licence and what I was doing tonight, told him driving a mate home, and he said "okay take care". Nothing else, just to see I was who I was.

Remember, they protect aswell as serve. Just as a hypothetical, some person could've stolen the car and been driving along that same spot and that same scenario happened where the cop flashed him over....he'd have a car thief in his hands then. Not so silly now to just check it out is it?

Or God forbid you let someone borrow your car. And if I am running late and I go through a 15+ minute traffic stop because the cop was "Just checking" I am then likely to say something to get me in trouble.

Have any of you actually read the scarlet letter? It's an awful book, but it has a message.

Extremely long run-on sentences are a guaranteed cure for insomnia?

 

[GT Pro]

America is yet to have visible decals on cars signalling a learner driver? *facepalm*

 

[mPWRD]

We still haven't signed the Kyoto Protocol. That tell you how slow we are? Actually, this is a slightly flawed idea... half-drunk college kids aren't the best drivers, and most of them are 20-21. I should know, I hear them zipping past my window in the middle of the night. Annoying as hell. But hey... it's a start.

 

[Jay]

Another thing about Australia's P plates is when young guys see a fellow P plate they often mess around, try and race each other at the lights and use the plates to spot out 'chicks'.

I have no doubt that after I got off my P's I got bothered by police less, on my P's they always would check me out.

America is yet to have visible decals on cars signalling a learner driver? *facepalm*

Learner drivers in the US drive with a learner school (marked as one).

 

[Northstar]

I just thought of another thing that would hold this back, the ACLU. They would be all over this like ant's on honey.

 

[GT Pro]

We still haven't signed the Kyoto Protocol. That tell you how slow we are?

No, that just shows that your policy makers aren't borderline mentally-retarded sheep. All signing that means is higher taxes on everything that is falsely percieved as threatening mankind. Swap?

 

[mPWRD]

No, that just shows that your policy makers aren't borderline mentally-retarded sheep. All signing that means is higher taxes on everything that is falsely percieved as threatening mankind. Swap?

Hmm... never thought of it from that perspective. And no, I like it here.

Edit: Some of them can be called mentally-retarded sheep. I'm not George W. Bush naming names.

 

[Keef]

I almost think there should be less identification involved in licensing a car, but I also think the driving tests here in America should be much more strict and thorough. For instance, we simply take a written test in Ohio to get our temporary permit. During that we're allowed to drive at certain times, and only with a licensed person over 18, I believe, in the front passenger seat with us. This is where most kids learn habits from their parents--who probably haven't read the rules of driving in 20+ years. So they typically learn bad habits. They certainly don't learn high-performance driving or evasive maneuvers from their driving instructors, though a privileged few may learn from experienced parents. I think stuff like that should be mandatory. If people actually learned how to drive along with simply learning the rules of the road, there might not be any need to discriminate against an age group that gets themselves into a lot of noob trouble.

 

[mustangGT90210]

I almost think there should be less identification involved in licensing a car, but I also think the driving tests here in America should be much more strict and thorough. For instance, we simply take a written test in Ohio to get our temporary permit. During that we're allowed to drive at certain times, and only with a licensed person over 18, I believe, in the front passenger seat with us. This is where most kids learn habits from their parents--who probably haven't read the rules of driving in 20+ years. So they typically learn bad habits. They certainly don't learn high-performance driving or evasive maneuvers from their driving instructors, though a privileged few may learn from experienced parents. I think stuff like that should be mandatory. If people actually learned how to drive along with simply learning the rules of the road, there might not be any need to discriminate against an age group that gets themselves into a lot of noob trouble.

QFT

Here in Florida, at 15, you take a Drug And Alcohol Awareness Test, then a road signs/road rules test to get your learners permit(Can't drive without a licensed 21+ yr old in pass. seat). After holding the permit for a year, you go to the DMV, set up a road test, and if you pass, there's your license with slightly restricted hours. I'll run you through my road test.

1) Start car
2) Drive through parking lot to backside of building
3) Make 3 point turn
4) Park in a space mapped by 4 coins.
5) Leave parking lot
6) Go around a neighborhood block(Speed Limit: 25)
7) Pull back in parking lot
8) Park

That's it. It made me stop realising how such horrible drivers get their licenses.

 

[Joey D]

I almost think there should be less identification involved in licensing a car, but I also think the driving tests here in America should be much more strict and thorough. For instance, we simply take a written test in Ohio to get our temporary permit. During that we're allowed to drive at certain times, and only with a licensed person over 18, I believe, in the front passenger seat with us. This is where most kids learn habits from their parents--who probably haven't read the rules of driving in 20+ years. So they typically learn bad habits. They certainly don't learn high-performance driving or evasive maneuvers from their driving instructors, though a privileged few may learn from experienced parents. I think stuff like that should be mandatory. If people actually learned how to drive along with simply learning the rules of the road, there might not be any need to discriminate against an age group that gets themselves into a lot of noob trouble.

This man has the answer and I've been saying the same thing for years. Stickers won't solve anything, except make young drivers more visible so you can steer clear of them. That won't teach them how to drive any better.

Here in Michigan you can get a permit at 14 and 9 months, restricted license at 16, full license at 18, and a horizontal license at 21 (it's for quicker ID). To get your license all you need is to take a test, complete a course, and drive 40 hours with someone over 21. That doesn't teach you driving at all. It's no wonder more teenagers don't kill themselves when they get behind a wheel.

Sure it would be a pain in the backside to have a lengthier drivers training but we'd all be safer on the road. I also think you should also have to retake a test every time you need to renew your license to show that you still understand what it all means.

 

[TheBook]

Michigan's driving test is a bit more difficult. Here's what I went through to get my driver's license:

1) Take a two-week driving course, including 6 hours of behind-the-wheel instruction
2) 100-question multiple-choice test (miss 25 to fail)
3) Get temp. licence (can only drive with parent)
4) After 40 hours on-road, go back for another 3-day driving school
5) Take driving test:
a)Pass vehicle inspection
b)drive up and stop within 2 feet of a line
c)back into simulated driveway
d)parallel park
e)half-hour road test driving through city and highway, including freeway
(parts a through d, you can only make 6 errors(I got 2); part e, 25 (i got 12, mostly from going about 2 mph over the speed limit)

That's what I had to go through to get my license.

 

[mafia_boy]

No, it's not like that. The plates are a simple removable plastic plate or magnet sticker that must be put on the car everytime the L/P plater is driving that particular car. When they finish driving, they take the plates off. It doesn't matter who owns the car (lots of parents still own their kids cars here too ), so long as the plates are on for the one driving it.

So, what stops the kids from just taking them off?

Fines and losing points off your licence stops them for two reasons there. And they do it per plate......we're supposed to have two on the car, one on the front and one on the back. So L's must be driven by an L plater (who needs a fully licenced driver with them to be able to drive anyway) or P plates by a P plater.

And when you have your red P's, you're only allowed to lose 4pts. before you lose your licence which is next to nothing, as simple as not having your P plates on your car or speeding once. It's better as you go on as fully licenced drivers get 12pts. (green P's get 6pts.).

 

[nk4e]

Michigan's driving test is a bit more difficult. Here's what I went through to get my driver's license:

1) Take a two-week driving course, including 6 hours of behind-the-wheel instruction
2) 100-question multiple-choice test (miss 25 to fail)
3) Get temp. licence (can only drive with parent)
4) After 40 hours on-road, go back for another 3-day driving school
5) Take driving test:
a)Pass vehicle inspection
b)drive up and stop within 2 feet of a line
c)back into simulated driveway
d)parallel park
e)half-hour road test driving through city and highway, including freeway
(parts a through d, you can only make 6 errors(I got 2); part e, 25 (i got 12, mostly from going about 2 mph over the speed limit)

That's what I had to go through to get my license.

Here was mine:
1) Pass Permit test
2) Go to Driving school / Drivers Ed ( HS class)
3) Pass actual driving test around the block of the DMV.

 

[stumpydino]

if any uk drivers would consider pass plus...dont bother
6 hours driving while the guy reads a few bullet points about night driving, wet weather, motorways and some other bits you could probably look up elsewhere if you were that interested in more knowledge. and the money spent on it is probably as much as the discount you would get from insurance
really a driver has to experience things to learn properly, heck a day on a skid pan would teach them much more than just pootling around residential estates repeatedly with a parent before being let loose.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Pass Plus Cymru is £20

The mine was £70 but it was all one-on-one and I had more fun (using full road width round the Brecons at night... in a Renault Modus) than any of my mates that did the £20.

 

[mafia_boy]

I'm actually of the opinion guys that in the future we (in Australia) should have advanced driver courses implemented into the licencing scheme. The current "hill-start, reverse park & 3-point turn" process of passing a driving test is a joke here and most people with any driving knowledge can pass it without too much trouble, those three things aren't too hard to do for any basic driver with an automatic gearbox.

You can go and do Stage 1 & 2 of an advanced driver course for around $500 and come out of it looking like a driving champion and would do a couple of things:
1. Reduce accidents because more drivers are aware of what their car is capable of.
2. Reduce death toll because there will be less accidents to deal with.
3. Have safer roads because people know the consequences of their actions and would be less likely to do it.

But that's just how I've seen it from being part of the car scene here for so long and seeing some horrific drag and street racing accidents over the years aswell as some crazy driving behaviours by us as people.

 

[mPWRD]

Did you guys see the Top Gear segment about Finnish driving tests? That's what we all need.

 

[Eric.]

Hey, look on the bright side! At least all those mad tyte JDM kids with those Japanese new driver emblems will actually be making sense!

At least they will JDM TYTE! Thanks for beating me Rev.

Damn, beat me to this twice. I know a guy at my college who has one of those on the fender of his otherwise clean CRX.