BMW 120D (Diesel...)

[berty1979]

I think you get more mileage from 100ltires of diesel than 100litres of petrol because 1 mL of diesel has more energy than 1mL of petrol....therefore you can use less and go farther....

This sounds odd to me? (the energy bit) can anyone clarify?

Also i find it hard to believe a golf GTI must shift to 4th for 80mph, that sounds pretty lame as my last 3 petrol cars could achieve 90mph in 3rd if required and i thought the GTI was a performance car.
I own a quick deisel car and love the torque but still favour high revving petrol engines for fast driving. Quite a few of my cars featured in GT5 too so i can re visit them

 

[peterjford]

This sounds odd to me? (the energy bit) can anyone clarify?

Also i find it hard to believe a golf GTI must shift to 4th for 80mph, that sounds pretty lame as my last 3 petrol cars could achieve 90mph in 3rd if required and i thought the GTI was a performance car.

It might be how the GTI is geared. I could be really low for faster acceleration. We would need to know the year, the type of transmission and probably the country to find the exact gearing and then compare.

 

[berty1979]

Your point about the gearing is a good one.Just out of interest i know that certain cars in the 80's and 90's were geared specifically for good 0-60 times and these were always displayed on the advertising bilboards. My old XR3i was a rocket to 60 and that was about it

 

[Moot]

Haha! I know but, somebody on the internet was wrong!

Anyway, the 120d is a great road car in real life and in GT5 and it's the only diesel (shame, as mentioned they do hold 50% of sales in europe).

Moot, whatever man you don't believe it's true. My 120d at 177hp and 350nm of torque (70nm more than the GTI) is faster 40mph-80mph. I do not even need to shift from 4th. The GTI does need to shift from 3rd to 4th, almost flat shifting for it even to be close.

There is obviously some hatred towards diesel fuelled cars on any automobile based forum but the facts are there. I never ever thought I'd go diesel until I drove the 120d.

Obviously the diesel will be faster if the petrol is in 3rd at 40mph. The petrol needs to be in 2nd gear at 40mph. You are talking typical diesel propaganda, it's all rubbish.

 

[kearftg]

i have recently got myself both the 120i and the 120d and i have to say the 120d is much better!!! i have set them up exactly the same 120i is slightly under powered then the d so i brought the power down to match the i, but the d just feels so much quicker!

i used to work for bmw and the diesals are so much quicker then the petrols... the 335d is alot quicker on pull off then the 335i... diesals FTW!!!

 

[kearftg]

Obviously the diesel will be faster if the petrol is in 3rd at 40mph. The petrol needs to be in 2nd gear at 40mph. You are talking typical diesel propaganda, it's all rubbish.

personally i think your just thinking of excuses, i do see what your saying but if both cars are say having a drag race from a standing start why would the petrol select a higher gear even before the diesal selected a higher gear as we all know diesals need a gear change quicker than a petrol would!!! as in a diesal cant rev as high as a petrol so it will need a gear change before a petrol would!

diesals are faster end of!

 

[b_schwarz]

Also i find it hard to believe a golf GTI must shift to 4th for 80mph, that sounds pretty lame as my last 3 petrol cars could achieve 90mph in 3rd if required and i thought the GTI was a performance car.
I own a quick deisel car and love the torque but still favour high revving petrol engines for fast driving. Quite a few of my cars featured in GT5 too so i can re visit them

Aye, the Golfs turbo runs out of steam at 5000rpm it'll carry on for another 500 but it's not as quick as catching the boost again by shifting. Japanese cars on the other hand, the revvy little gits can easily surpass 90mph in 3rd. I think maybe that is your taste?

 

[Moot]

personally i think your just thinking of excuses, i do see what your saying but if both cars are say having a drag race from a standing start why would the petrol select a higher gear even before the diesal selected a higher gear as we all know diesals need a gear change quicker than a petrol would!!! as in a diesal cant rev as high as a petrol so it will need a gear change before a petrol would!

diesals are faster end of!

No need for there to be a standing start, in any situation the petrol will be quicker, it has better power to weight. It may need to be more aggressive on the gear changes than the diesel but that is not an issue.
I don't actually get the point about selecting higher gears than needed so can't answer that.

Lets say both cars are cruising at 40mph, both in top gear. If they both floored the pedal, the diesel might get to 80mph faster than the petrol, but even when including the time it takes to drop down lots of gears, then use them all again to get back to 80mph, the petrol would still win. The diesel is allowed to drop down gears if it wishes, but the outcome would still be the same, both cars trying their hardest the petrol wins.
People who like diesel usually like them as they are less effort to drive, maybe less effort to drive quickly. But ultimately they are still slower.

In application to GT5 like I mentioned earlier, I did a test with 120i and 120d same power and weight, with the 120d having a load more torque. And the lap times were almost identical after about 10 laps each with less than a tenth between them for the fastest time (the petrol was fastest,but no real winner). So even with same weight and power, and a huge amount more torque the diesel can not significantly win (but is about the same). The lack of power band balances the high torque.

But in reference to two cars where the petrol is actually more powerful and even lighter, it's a no brainer.

 

[Moot]

Aye, the Golfs turbo runs out of steam at 5000rpm

5100rpm peak power, yeah is pretty bad. But it makes peak torque from 1800rpm to 5100rpm flat line graph.

out of interest.
120d is from 1750rpm - 3000rpm for torque.
4000rpm peak for power.

 

[kearftg]

No need for there to be a standing start, in any situation the petrol will be quicker, it has better power to weight. It may need to be more aggressive on the gear changes than the diesel but that is not an issue.
I don't actually get the point about selecting higher gears than needed so can't answer that.

Lets say both cars are cruising at 40mph, both in top gear. If they both floored the pedal, the diesel might get to 80mph faster than the petrol, but even when including the time it takes to drop down lots of gears, then use them all again to get back to 80mph, the petrol would still win. The diesel is allowed to drop down gears if it wishes, but the outcome would still be the same, both cars trying their hardest the petrol wins.
People who like diesel usually like them as they are less effort to drive, maybe less effort to drive quickly. But ultimately they are still slower.

In application to GT5 like I mentioned earlier, I did a test with 120i and 120d same power and weight, with the 120d having a load more torque. And the lap times were almost identical after about 10 laps each with less than a tenth between them for the fastest time (the petrol was fastest,but no real winner). So even with same weight and power, and a huge amount more torque the diesel can not significantly win (but is about the same). The lack of power band balances the high torque.

But in reference to two cars where the petrol is actually more powerful and even lighter, it's a no brainer.

im sorry but you are talking absolute nonsense my friend!

i think we need a race to settle this... me in the 120d and you in the 120i
i will bet you any car in my garage i will win!

add me Nevtesrepooc, im in my lobby right now adjusting settings to the bmw's and im gonna put them both round a track (the ring) to compare... i often race in my lobby at 500pp and my 120d is a very good competitor, my 120i is not!

you are clearly stating a petrol is quicker than a diesal... so regardless if a standing or rolling start, the 120d is quicker than a 120i...
care to prove me wrong?

 

[Moot]

Sure, not tonight though, I will contact you through the usual means, this tape will self destruct after 5 seconds. Thank-you Mr Kearftg, and good luck.

 

[Moot]

you are clearly stating a petrol is quicker than a diesal... so regardless if a standing or rolling start, the 120d is quicker than a 120i...
care to prove me wrong?

No I was stating a petrol with 20+bhp more and 30+kgs lighter will beat the diesel. That is the detail of the argument, and in relation to 40mph to 80mph. we can test that against each other if we try on a straight or something. I can get the golf gti for that test.
But I will race you in a 120i with the same power and weight as you. In that situation there will be nothing in it. But fun. Just to prove that diesel torque means very little in racing.
In real life a diesel with the exact same power and weight as the petrol will be a much more expensive car. Negating any economical statements.

 

[kearftg]

fully modded inc all wieght and engine mods both of my cars are set up the same i.e suspension, diff and downforce

120i 120d
weight - 1121kg 1178kg
bhp - 309 324
pp - 487 507
torque - 32 53
rpm - 6400 3800

do you honeslty think you will win?

i have set the 120i wieght to match the 120d and i have set the 120d bhp to match the 120i...

it will be a good race, but i still think the 120d is the winner! anyone else agree with me?

 

[b_schwarz]

120d is from 1750rpm - 3000rpm for torque.
4000rpm peak for power.

And in that power band the 120d is propelled from 40-80mph rather quickly in 4th gear. No need to be in any other gear, that is the optimum selection.

I'm well aware the Golf needs to be in different gears to get decent acceleration!! It's still not as quick.

Power delivery. BMW just do it better, and always have done. Even the petrols have a lovely flat torque curve.

 

[G1lly]

There's the Honda Jazz DSE, think that's a 1.4 diesel.

 

[b_schwarz]

There's the Honda Jazz DSE, think that's a 1.4 diesel.

Nope, it's a petrol.

Honda were late on diesel. Honda in england did source diesel engines from Isuzu but the Accord had the first actual Honda diesel engine in 05 i think, first all aluminium diesel engine aswell. I remember driving it, was weird.

And the DSE system was something to do with ignition, it took 8 spark plugs. Nothing like Alfa's twin spark ignition which just ignited wasted fuel, it did actually give great fuel economy for the time. Wish I could remember how it worked.

 

[Moot]

fully modded inc all wieght and engine mods both of my cars are set up the same i.e suspension, diff and downforce

120i 120d
weight - 1121kg 1178kg
bhp - 309 324
pp - 487 507
torque - 32 53
rpm - 6400 3800

do you honeslty think you will win?

i have set the 120i wieght to match the 120d and i have set the 120d bhp to match the 120i...

it will be a good race, but i still think the 120d is the winner! anyone else agree with me?

For the purposes of GT5 It should be setup to 161bhp vs 161bhp or 148bhp vs 148bhp. I beleive both cars are 2004 models. (different from the 2007 figures I have quoted)
Shouldn't have too much power, using comfort soft tyres.
As I have said from testing they should be within a tenth of each other (on Tsukuba). But if you let me have 20bhp more and 30kgs less I think I can win every time.

 

[kearftg]

i was gonna say it would be better to prove what is best as a standard unmodified car...
but then it would also come down to driver skills, but then if you wanna settle your point with standard cars, then why would you need 20bhp more and 30kgs less.. then you car wouldnt be standard and would have a slight advantage...

diesals are faster... fact!!!! does anyone else agree with me ?

 

[Moot]

What do you mean diesels are faster?
I entered the discussion saying a petrol with 20bhp more and 30kgs less would be faster than the diesel. If you already accept that, then there is not much to gain by racing each other.
A standard 120d easily beats a standard 120i, as the the diesel has more power, it's turbocharged.
It's power and power to weight that wins races, diesels can not achieve any victory in performance as they are not powerful enough on like for like regulations and expenditure.

 

[kearftg]

you said in a previous post the both cars rolling at 40mph in the same 4th gear.. a petrol would be quicker reaching 80mph...
i personally have never tried this, but i dont think your right! a diesal is quicker .

 

[Moot]

you said in a previous post the both cars rolling at 40mph in the same 4th gear.. a petrol would be quicker reaching 80mph...
i personally have never tried this, but i dont think your right! a diesal is quicker .

No I never said that, in the same gear the diesel would be quicker to 80mph. But that is not a scenario for saying a diesel is quicker from 40mph to 80mph in all out performance, 40mph to 80mph the petrol would be significantly quicker not least because it has over 20bhp more power and 30kgs less weight.
Read my post again, I said the petrol would be in or change to 2nd gear in order to use it's better performance.
If both cars are rolling in 4th gear at 40mph, the petrol can drop down to 2nd gear and floor it. Even the time lost on the gear change is not enough to give the diesel an advantage. The petrol would get to 80mph first.

 

[kearftg]

No I never said that, in the same gear the diesel would be quicker to 80mph. But that is not a scenario for saying a diesel is quicker from 40mph to 80mph in all out performance, 40mph to 80mph the petrol would be significantly quicker not least because it has over 20bhp more power and 30kgs less weight.
Read my post again, I said the petrol would be in or change to 2nd gear in order to use it's better performance.
If both cars are rolling in 4th gear at 40mph, the petrol can drop down to 2nd gear and floor it. Even the time lost on the gear change is not enough to give the diesel an advantage. The petrol would get to 80mph first.

i think you have slightly contradicted yourself there...
so basically your saying the 120i is allowed to drop a gear to get better performance to reach to 80, the diesal would probably benefit from a down change aswell... (well i personally would drop a gear and maybe even double clutch it to get better performance from the diesal and reachig 80mph before the petrol! i get that the diesal will probably feel slightly sluggish then the petrol but it will still beat the petrol! lol

so what, is the diesal not allowed to drop a gear but the petrol is in order to get to 80mph faster the diesal! man give it up the diesal is quicker! however i will bet my eyebrows if you can prove me wrong!!! haha

 

[Moot]

The diesel can change gear if it wants to also.
I will do the test with you, try to anyway. Me in the golf gti with 197bhp, you in the 120d with 174bhp. But would need your honesty it having the 120d at the higher weight and lower power.

 

[kearftg]

The diesel can change gear if it wants to also.
I will do the test with you, try to anyway. Me in the golf gti with 197bhp, you in the 120d with 174bhp. But would need your honesty it having the 120d at the higher weight and lower power.

hold up... i have been talking about 120i vs 120d which i have been mentioning both cars in previous posts, so why have you now mentioned a golf gti?
have i missed something?

 

[kearftg]

For GT5 purposes an interesting exercise would be to setup the 120d and 120i with equal power and equal weight and see which does the best lap time. As the power bands will be different. I think whichever way you do it, adjusting 120i or adjusting 120d, the 120i will be quicker as it has petrol power bands which are better.

before you try wriggle out saying you was talking about the golf all along, here is my reason for jumping on this thread in the first place!!!

 

[Moot]

I think you need to read the thread again lol.
The original discussion was related to the golf gti to the 2007 120d.
But the same principle can transpose to a petrol 120i with a power and weight advantage, if you want to race same cars, because I would easily win as petrol is quicker we can make the cars same power same weight, and there would be nothing in it even though you might have a lot more torque.

 

[Moot]

before you try wriggle out saying you was talking about the golf all along, here is my reason for jumping on this thread in the first place!!!

Yes that is what I tested I was faster by less than a tenth of a second on Tsukuba. Was close.
If you want to do that race than we can do that. No problem. I have sent a PSN request.

 

[kearftg]

i really want to do the challenge, but the challenge you are offering i cant accept as i dont have a standard 120d its been fully modified! unless anyone is able to send?

 

[kearftg]

i just been setting some times in your lobby (im still in your lobby) and i have put both my fully modified bmw's both have 309bhp and both have 1178kgs, comfort softs manual gears around tsukuba...

the 120i done a lap in 1.08 the 120d done a lap in 1.07....

 

[greenhill]

I like the 120d a lot actually. I recently raced this car in a pp race... I felt like this car was very strong in corners and tight stuff with plenty of "pulling away" power...... But in long straights, I would be caught..... It was great cat and mouse stuff. That was my experience anyway. Cheers.